450 réponses à ce sujet

[Pro_Consul]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

The Quarians committed a crime by a sentient AI. They then tried to fix that crime. That might not be viewed as genocide.

Creating a sentient AI may be criminal according to the legal framework of the Citadel races. But exterminating a sentient race is genocide by definition, regardless of what the law may have had to say about the origins of that sentient race. And if the law does condone eliminating the "product" of the crime, then the law is condoning genocide. In any case you cannot hold up Council law as a legitimate excuse for the Quarians' attempt at committing genocide while simultaneously arguing that there can be NO excuse for the Geth trying to commit genocide back at them (even though there is no evidence the latter actually happened).

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Pro_Consul wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

The Quarians committed a crime by a sentient AI. They then tried to fix that crime. That might not be viewed as genocide.

Creating a sentient AI may be criminal according to the legal framework of the Citadel races. But exterminating a sentient race is genocide by definition, regardless of what the law may have had to say about the origins of that sentient race. And if the law does condone eliminating the "product" of the crime, then the law is condoning genocide. In any case you cannot hold up Council law as a legitimate excuse for the Quarians' attempt at committing genocide while simultaneously arguing that there can be NO excuse for the Geth trying to commit genocide back at them (even though there is no evidence the latter actually happened).

Lots of Quarians died at Geth hands and the Geth kept fighting them until they were completely out of the former Quarian territory. That also means they attacked the Quarian colonies as well. Two wrongs don't make a right.

[wulf3n]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
The Quarians committed a crime by a sentient AI. They then tried to fix that crime. That might not be viewed as genocide.

So they tried to fix a crime with an even bigger one.

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
Lots of Quarians died at Geth hands and the Geth kept fighting them until they were completely out of the former Quarian territory. That also means they attacked the Quarian colonies as well. Two wrongs don't make a right.

But were the geth trying to wipe out all quarians? did the geth even understand the difference between a colony and a military base? Did the geth even understand the concept of killing, to them destruction of the platform just meant being transferred to another, for all we know they didn't even realise they were killing quarians, maybe they just thought they were destroying quarian platforms, and the "soul" for lack of a better word, just transferred somewhere else.

Modifié par wulf3n, 05 février 2011 - 06:07 .

[James2912]

You can't kill things that are not alive the Geth are just a bunch of computers when I smash my computer I am not comitting genocide. They do not even fit the definition of living. I don't blame the Quarrians, my computer started to ask me stupid questions I would try and reboot it too.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

wulf3n wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
The Quarians committed a crime by a sentient AI. They then tried to fix that crime. That might not be viewed as genocide.

So they tried to fix a crime with an even bigger one.

I know I'm going to get some flak for this, but what the Quarians tried to do was actually a crime? The Geth WERE the Quarians' creation. AIs are illegal in the galaxy. What the Quarians were doing might be justifiable by THEIR (the Quarians and the Council) laws, which is unfortunate, but that is THEIR law.

[James2912]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

wulf3n wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
The Quarians committed a crime by a sentient AI. They then tried to fix that crime. That might not be viewed as genocide.

So they tried to fix a crime with an even bigger one.

I know I'm going to get some flak for this, but what the Quarians tried to do was actually a crime? The Geth WERE the Quarians' creation. AIs are illegal in the galaxy. What the Quarians were doing might be justifiable by THEIR (the Quarians and the Council) laws, which is unfortunate, but that is THEIR law.

yeah its part of their culture! And who are we to judge their culture? Some people seem to think that destorying computers is genocide but the Quarians might view the eating of cows to be genocide! 

[wulf3n]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
I know I'm going to get some flak for this, but what the Quarians tried to do was actually a crime? The Geth WERE the Quarians' creation.

Can a parent kill their child? technically it's their creation?

I guess it depends on how you view morality.  Some people seem to think that a right to exist only extends to organic beings, where as others believe if something/anything can question the nature of it's existence and understands the concept of no longer existing, then it has as much right to exist as anything.

[DarthSliver]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

wulf3n wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
The Quarians committed a crime by a sentient AI. They then tried to fix that crime. That might not be viewed as genocide.

So they tried to fix a crime with an even bigger one.

I know I'm going to get some flak for this, but what the Quarians tried to do was actually a crime? The Geth WERE the Quarians' creation. AIs are illegal in the galaxy. What the Quarians were doing might be justifiable by THEIR (the Quarians and the Council) laws, which is unfortunate, but that is THEIR law.

I actually believe it saids in the codex somewhere on ME1 that Advance AI's like the ones the Quarian made was made illegal after the events of the war. I will say i could be wrong, i havent been able to play ME1 since my 360 RRoD in 2008 a week before Fable 2 was due to release.

[Pro_Consul]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Lots of Quarians died at Geth hands and the Geth kept fighting them until they were completely out of the former Quarian territory. That also means they attacked the Quarian colonies as well. Two wrongs don't make a right.

You are making leaps of assumption here. Just because the Geth were still fighting during the evacuation does not mean they were attacking. Recall that according to the info we have, 98% of the attacks during the war were initiated by the Quarians, not the Geth. Has it not occured to you that Quarian military forces could have remained behind to perform diversionary attacks intended to preclude Geth interference with the evacuation? That does tend to be the historically tried and true method of evacuating a war zone during a full retreat, after all. Why do you insist on instead leaping to the assumption that the Geth were systematically executing every Quarian they could reach right up until the Quarians passed beyond the Veil? My hypothesis is fully in synch with the lore about 98% of the aggression being Quarian-initiated. Your hypothesis is completely contrary to it. 

[Ramirez Wolfen]

DarthSliver wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

wulf3n wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
The Quarians committed a crime by a sentient AI. They then tried to fix that crime. That might not be viewed as genocide.

So they tried to fix a crime with an even bigger one.

I know I'm going to get some flak for this, but what the Quarians tried to do was actually a crime? The Geth WERE the Quarians' creation. AIs are illegal in the galaxy. What the Quarians were doing might be justifiable by THEIR (the Quarians and the Council) laws, which is unfortunate, but that is THEIR law.

I actually believe it saids in the codex somewhere on ME1 that Advance AI's like the ones the Quarian made was made illegal after the events of the war. I will say i could be wrong, i havent been able to play ME1 since my 360 RRoD in 2008 a week before Fable 2 was due to release.

Go here:
http://masseffect.wi...iki/Morning_War

It says that the Quarians were punished for creating a sentient AI. It had to be a law before the Morning War.

Modifié par Ramirez Wolfen, 05 février 2011 - 06:17 .

[Pro_Consul]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

I know I'm going to get some flak for this, but what the Quarians tried to do was actually a crime? The Geth WERE the Quarians' creation. AIs are illegal in the galaxy. What the Quarians were doing might be justifiable by THEIR (the Quarians and the Council) laws, which is unfortunate, but that is THEIR law.

The question of its legal correctness was never at issue. The question was whether such genocide was morally acceptable, and your answer seems to be a double standard. On one hand you claim there is no excuse for the Geth trying to commit genocide on their would be murderers (despite your inability to even prove such an attempt was ever even made). OTOH you are trying to find ways to excuse the Quarians' attempt at committing genocide on the basis of a legalism. You should really go into politics, dude. Seriously, you have gifts in that area.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Pro_Consul wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Lots of Quarians died at Geth hands and the Geth kept fighting them until they were completely out of the former Quarian territory. That also means they attacked the Quarian colonies as well. Two wrongs don't make a right.

You are making leaps of assumption here. Just because the Geth were still fighting during the evacuation does not mean they were attacking. Recall that according to the info we have, 98% of the attacks during the war were initiated by the Quarians, not the Geth. Has it not occured to you that Quarian military forces could have remained behind to perform diversionary attacks intended to preclude Geth interference with the evacuation? That does tend to be the historically tried and true method of evacuating a war zone during a full retreat, after all. Why do you insist on instead leaping to the assumption that the Geth were systematically executing every Quarian they could reach right up until the Quarians passed beyond the Veil? My hypothesis is fully in synch with the lore about 98% of the aggression being Quarian-initiated. Your hypothesis is completely contrary to it. 

Becuase a WHOLE lot of Quarians died at Geth hands when the Geth made no attempt for peace (neither did the Quarians, though).

[wulf3n]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
Becuase a WHOLE lot of Quarians died at Geth hands when the Geth made no attempt for peace (neither did the Quarians, though).

Did the geth even know what peace was at the time? all they had ever known since they developed consciousness was quarians trying to kill them

[Pro_Consul]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Becuase a WHOLE lot of Quarians died at Geth hands when the Geth made no attempt for peace (neither did the Quarians, though).

Wow, assumptions AND a double standard in one neat package.

First the assumption: you are assuming that every single Quarian who died did so at the hands of the Geth. Ridiculous assumption. Anyone who has ever seen real war would either laugh, cry or punch a wall on hearing that absurd assertion made as if it were an obvious fact.

Second, the double standard. The Quarians started the war by attempting to commit genocide against the Geth. They made no attempt to establish peaceful relations first. They then prosecuted that war with relentless aggression, being the initiators of 98% of the offensives which took place. So every single time the was a break in the fighting the Quarians made no attempt at for peace, but instead prepared their next offensive. And you want to condemn the Geth, the ones who were the defenders 98% of the time, for all the deaths that occurred due to the two sides not attempting to make peace. Why are you not condemning and blaming the Quarians for all of their own people who died due to their pigheaded insistence on attacking over and over and over despite the fact that they were both in the wrong and losing?!?

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Pro_Consul wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Becuase a WHOLE lot of Quarians died at Geth hands when the Geth made no attempt for peace (neither did the Quarians, though).

Wow, assumptions AND a double standard in one neat package.

First the assumption: you are assuming that every single Quarian who died did so at the hands of the Geth. Ridiculous assumption. Anyone who has ever seen real war would either laugh, cry or punch a wall on hearing that absurd assertion made as if it were an obvious fact.

Second, the double standard. The Quarians started the war by attempting to commit genocide against the Geth. They made no attempt to establish peaceful relations first. They then prosecuted that war with relentless aggression, being the initiators of 98% of the offensives which took place. So every single time the was a break in the fighting the Quarians made no attempt at for peace, but instead prepared their next offensive. And you want to condemn the Geth, the ones who were the defenders 98% of the time, for all the deaths that occurred due to the two sides not attempting to make peace. Why are you not condemning and blaming the Quarians for all of their own people who died due to their pigheaded insistence on attacking over and over and over despite the fact that they were both in the wrong and losing?!?

1) I didn't say that. I know that lots of people die in war and not ALL of them die directly from the fighting.

2) For us and OUR morals and views, it is genocide. But for them and their laws, it migh not be. Also, at first they tried to reprogram the Geht. THAT is a peaceful solution to war. And why would the Quarians have to resort to peace? The Geth are THEIR creations.

3) Because they were trying to right a wrong that they did (by their standards, not ours)

[DarthSliver]

 Oh heres a quote from Wiki, the link you gave me OP:

"Once the now-sentient geth realized what the quarians were doing, they retaliated"

The quote further proves the quarians at fault. I sorry there are many sources in game and via other Universes that prove the quarians at fault.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

DarthSliver wrote...

 Oh heres a quote from Wiki, the link you gave me OP:

"Once the now-sentient geth realized what the quarians were doing, they retaliated"

The quote further proves the quarians at fault. I sorry there are many sources in game and via other Universes that prove the quarians at fault.

The Quarians are at fault by OUR standards, not theirs. It was illegal by Council laws to create a sentient AI, which is what the Quarians unintentionally did. The Quarians tried to fix that crime and failed.

[DarthSliver]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

DarthSliver wrote...

 Oh heres a quote from Wiki, the link you gave me OP:

"Once the now-sentient geth realized what the quarians were doing, they retaliated"

The quote further proves the quarians at fault. I sorry there are many sources in game and via other Universes that prove the quarians at fault.

The Quarians are at fault by OUR standards, not theirs. It was illegal by Council laws to create a sentient AI, which is what the Quarians unintentionally did. The Quarians tried to fix that crime and failed.

"The quarians created the geth sometime before 1895 CE to serve as a cheap labor and military force. Since they wanted the geth to be able to perform more complex tasks without supervision, they allowed each geth process to share data using an advanced neural network. As the quarians built more geth, this ability allowed them to become increasingly intelligent, rapidly approaching sentience."

The Quarians knew exactly what they were doing. Its exactly why the Council took their embassy away and punished them for creating an AI. Also exactly why the Quarians are at fault, the essentially created in terms Skynet. But this Skynet only attacked back in self-defense or after being provoked.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

DarthSliver wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

DarthSliver wrote...

 Oh heres a quote from Wiki, the link you gave me OP:

"Once the now-sentient geth realized what the quarians were doing, they retaliated"

The quote further proves the quarians at fault. I sorry there are many sources in game and via other Universes that prove the quarians at fault.

The Quarians are at fault by OUR standards, not theirs. It was illegal by Council laws to create a sentient AI, which is what the Quarians unintentionally did. The Quarians tried to fix that crime and failed.

"The quarians created the geth sometime before 1895 CE to serve as a cheap labor and military force. Since they wanted the geth to be able to perform more complex tasks without supervision, they allowed each geth process to share data using an advanced neural network. As the quarians built more geth, this ability allowed them to become increasingly intelligent, rapidly approaching sentience."

The Quarians knew exactly what they were doing. Its exactly why the Council took their embassy away and punished them for creating an AI. Also exactly why the Quarians are at fault, the essentially created in terms Skynet. But this Skynet only attacked back in self-defense or after being provoked.

But the Geth becoming full blown sapient was not what was intended. By destroying the Geth, they were fixing an unintended mistake. They just wanted them to complete mor tasks, not become sapient.

[wulf3n]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
But the Geth becoming full blown sapient was not what was intended. By destroying the Geth, they were fixing an unintended mistake. They just wanted them to complete mor tasks, not become sapient.

Say you believe in god. Then lets say gods plan wasn't to have humans become sentient, do you think he has the right to fix the mistake of you? It's easy to agree with the quarians from the outside, but if you're the geth, and the quarians are trying to kill you because you're apparently a "mistake" you're not going to be to happy about it.

[Pro_Consul]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

But the Geth becoming full blown sapient was not what was intended. By destroying the Geth, they were fixing an unintended mistake. They just wanted them to complete mor tasks, not become sapient.

So in your book the correct answer to creating an unintended sentient life is to kill it. Nice. Now I can see why you are having such a hard time getting people to accept your view of this matter. Regardless of what was originally intended, the Geth did become fully sentient, a new form of intelligent life. And that is precisely why the Quarians tried to exterminate them. Sapience is not merely a "mistake" to be corrected by destroying the nascent mind. If the Quarians really think it is, then I think they might just be morally worse than the Reapers. And I had previously thought that impossible.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

wulf3n wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
But the Geth becoming full blown sapient was not what was intended. By destroying the Geth, they were fixing an unintended mistake. They just wanted them to complete mor tasks, not become sapient.

Say you believe in god. Then lets say gods plan wasn't to have humans become sentient, do you think he has the right to fix the mistake of you? It's easy to agree with the quarians from the outside, but if you're the geth, and the quarians are trying to kill you because you're apparently a "mistake" you're not going to be to happy about it.

According to religion, God doesn't make mistakes.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Pro_Consul wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

But the Geth becoming full blown sapient was not what was intended. By destroying the Geth, they were fixing an unintended mistake. They just wanted them to complete mor tasks, not become sapient.

So in your book the correct answer to creating an unintended sentient life is to kill it. Nice. Now I can see why you are having such a hard time getting people to accept your view of this matter. Regardless of what was originally intended, the Geth did become fully sentient, a new form of intelligent life. And that is precisely why the Quarians tried to exterminate them. Sapience is not merely a "mistake" to be corrected by destroying the nascent mind. If the Quarians really think it is, then I think they might just be morally worse than the Reapers. And I had previously thought that impossible.

That's not exactly what I'm saying. I'm saying that if you created something and a mistake happened, aren't you allowed allowed to fix it in anyway possible?

[wulf3n]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
According to religion, God doesn't make mistakes.

<_<

my point is, if it was happening to you, the higher power, saying its ok because you were a mistake, is going to be of little consolation.

[Rogue Unit]

Ramirez Wolfen, your cyber-love for Tali - and by extension - the quarians has blinded you.

Committing genocide against a sentient race isn't right by any moral standards. From a  legal POV, the geth were a mistake. One the quarians tried to fix with genocide. You don't get to create intelligent life - by mistake or otherwise - and expect that race to lie down and accept death simply because their creators demand it.

Modifié par Rogue Unit, 05 février 2011 - 07:53 .