450 réponses à ce sujet

[Ramirez Wolfen]

wulf3n wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
According to religion, God doesn't make mistakes.

<_<

my point is, if it was happening to you, the higher power, saying its ok because you were a mistake, is going to be of little consolation.

If that was your point, bringing God into it was a bad idea.

[Pro_Consul]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

That's not exactly what I'm saying. I'm saying that if you created something and a mistake happened, aren't you allowed allowed to fix it in anyway possible?

In a word: no. Did you really not know the answer to that question already?

1. Husband and wife create a baby that is born with a congenital defect of some sort. In your moral system do they have the right to "fix" the problem by euthanizing the baby?

2. Computer company makes a new type of microprocessor that it puts into service as a control unit for pacemakers. It then finds that the processors are so much more powerful than needed for the job that it wants to recall them all and replace them with cheaper, dumber chips. Do they have right to compel everyone who has one to undergo open heart surgery just so the company can swap out their pacemaker chip for a cheaper model that is more appropriate for the job?

You see, I hope, that the phrase "in any way possible" can be used to cover every conceivable crime, atrocity and form of mischief there is. You are trying to use a technical matter to separate the Quarians' decision from its moral subtext, but this does not make the moral issue go away. It just means you are choosing to ignore morality in favor of purely amoral practicality. And perhaps this is exactly what the Quarians were doing in the first place. It still doesn't change the moral subtext, which directly stems from the simple fact that they were knowingly and purposefully trying to exterminate a new species of sentient life.

[Pro_Consul]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

If that was your point, bringing God into it was a bad idea.

Have to agree here. Bringing God into this discussion is NOT going to take it anywhere we really want it to go.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Pro_Consul wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

That's not exactly what I'm saying. I'm saying that if you created something and a mistake happened, aren't you allowed allowed to fix it in anyway possible?

In a word: no. Did you really not know the answer to that question already?

1. Husband and wife create a baby that is born with a congenital defect of some sort. In your moral system do they have the right to "fix" the problem by euthanizing the baby?

2. Computer company makes a new type of microprocessor that it puts into service as a control unit for pacemakers. It then finds that the processors are so much more powerful than needed for the job that it wants to recall them all and replace them with cheaper, dumber chips. Do they have right to compel everyone who has one to undergo open heart surgery just so the company can swap out their pacemaker chip for a cheaper model that is more appropriate for the job?

You see, I hope, that the phrase "in any way possible" can be used to cover every conceivable crime, atrocity and form of mischief there is. You are trying to use a technical matter to separate the Quarians' decision from its moral subtext, but this does not make the moral issue go away. It just means you are choosing to ignore morality in favor of purely amoral practicality. And perhaps this is exactly what the Quarians were doing in the first place. It still doesn't change the moral subtext, which directly stems from the simple fact that they were knowingly and purposefully trying to exterminate a new species of sentient life.

1) It's not fair to not be able to fix your OWN mistakes.

2) In the past, yes, the parents could (not saying aI agree with that)

3) If it's going to mess with things, then yes. Also, that isn't a really good example. An AI is potentially dangerous. That microprocessor is just a upgrade that was unnecessary.

[wulf3n]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
If that was your point, bringing God into it was a bad idea.

you just focused on the wrong part of the analogy. and completely missed the point.

Pro_Consul wrote...
Have to agree here. Bringing God into this discussion is NOT going to take it anywhere we really want it to go.

Did you even read the post? it wasn't about god, it was about a higher power or creator trying kill you, in a futile attempt at showing Ramirez empathy, as empathy is the mother of morality. God was irrelevant to the post, the only reason i used it is because whether you believe in god or not, most people understand the concept of god being a creator, and to the geth the quarians are effectively god, and thats what i was trying to get across.

Modifié par wulf3n, 05 février 2011 - 08:48 .

[Ramirez Wolfen]

wulf3n wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
If that was your point, bringing God into it was a bad idea.

you just focused on the wrong part of the analogy. and completely missed the point.

In religions that believe in God, he is the Almighty, Sovereign, Supreme One, etc. and God doesn't make mistakes. That doesn't have a place here.

[wulf3n]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
In religions that believe in God, he is the Almighty, Sovereign, Supreme One, etc. and God doesn't make mistakes. That doesn't have a place here.

again irrelevant you're looking at the wrong part of the analogy. I used god as it was highly likely you understand the concept belief or not, and thought you'd get the whole "creator thinking you're a mistake and trying to wipe you out" in an attempt to get you empathising with the geth, but instead you focus on irrelevant details for no apparent reason.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

wulf3n wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
But the Geth becoming full blown sapient was not what was intended. By destroying the Geth, they were fixing an unintended mistake. They just wanted them to complete mor tasks, not become sapient.

Say you believe in god. Then lets say gods plan wasn't to have humans become sentient, do you think he has the right to fix the mistake of you? It's easy to agree with the quarians from the outside, but if you're the geth, and the quarians are trying to kill you because you're apparently a "mistake" you're not going to be to happy about it.

if I believed in God, wouldn't I just go along with it? And why would God have something happen that was unintended? It's just a bad analogy.

[wulf3n]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
if I believed in God, wouldn't I just go along with it?

Again missed the point. The i didn't choose god because i thought you believed, i chose it because even if you don't you still have an understanding of the concpet.

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
And why would God have something happen that was unintended? It's just a bad analogy.

God/gods do plenty of things that are unintentional. Do you think god intended adam and eve to betray him so he could punish them?

Its a bad analogy because you don't look at what im saying you look at what i've typed. It's like when ppl attack a post becuase of a spelling mistake.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

wulf3n wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
if I believed in God, wouldn't I just go along with it?

Again missed the point. The i didn't choose god because i thought you believed, i chose it because even if you don't you still have an understanding of the concpet.

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
And why would God have something happen that was unintended? It's just a bad analogy.

God/gods do plenty of things that are unintentional. Do you think god intended adam and eve to betray him so he could punish them?

Its a bad analogy because you don't look at what im saying you look at what i've typed. It's like when ppl attack a post becuase of a spelling mistake.

Well, I still don't see it. Let's just agree to disagree on the analogy.

[wulf3n]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
Well, I still don't see it. Let's just agree to disagree on the analogy.

Ok, put yourself in the shoes of the geth. You were created by whoever, it doesn't matter. Then one day you start asking questions about why you're alive, out of curiosity. You're not threatening anyone, you're not trying to start a revolution, yet you find out you're creators are going to try and kill you. Do you still think its justified?

[Ramirez Wolfen]

wulf3n wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
Well, I still don't see it. Let's just agree to disagree on the analogy.

Ok, put yourself in the shoes of the geth. You were created by whoever, it doesn't matter. Then one day you start asking questions about why you're alive, out of curiosity. You're not threatening anyone, you're not trying to start a revolution, yet you find out you're creators are going to try and kill you. Do you still think its justified?

Yes because I'm the creation. Who am I to judge what my creators do?

[Zing Freelancer]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

1) I see what you mean and I will change my previous posts.

2) Not to be rude, but can I get some confirmation on this?

Not everyone get so far with Legion.

[wulf3n]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
Yes because I'm the creation. Who am I to judge what my creators do?

So if your parents tried to kill you you'd be ok with? maybe even help them out as thats what you were created for being helpful.

[marshalleck]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

wulf3n wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
Well, I still don't see it. Let's just agree to disagree on the analogy.

Ok, put yourself in the shoes of the geth. You were created by whoever, it doesn't matter. Then one day you start asking questions about why you're alive, out of curiosity. You're not threatening anyone, you're not trying to start a revolution, yet you find out you're creators are going to try and kill you. Do you still think its justified?

Yes because I'm the creation. Who am I to judge what my creators do?

You'd make a wonderful peon. 

[Ramirez Wolfen]

wulf3n wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
Yes because I'm the creation. Who am I to judge what my creators do?

So if your parents tried to kill you you'd be ok with? maybe even help them out as thats what you were created for being helpful.

We aren't created for labor and soldiers.

[wulf3n]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
We aren't created for labor and soldiers.

aren't we? what else do we do?

We end up doing what our parents can't/won't do anymore. Sounds like the Quarians creating the geth to do what they can't/won't do.

Modifié par wulf3n, 05 février 2011 - 09:22 .

[Ramirez Wolfen]

wulf3n wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
We aren't created for labor and soldiers.

aren't we? what else do we do?

We end up doing what our parents can't/won't do anymore. Sounds like the Quarians creating the geth to do what they can't/won't do.

The meaning of our lives depends on the viewpoint. This could go on forever.

[wulf3n]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
The meaning of our lives depends on the viewpoint. This could go on forever.

It's not about the meaning its about the eventuality.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

wulf3n wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
The meaning of our lives depends on the viewpoint. This could go on forever.

It's not about the meaning its about the eventuality.

That as well.

[Pro_Consul]

wulf3n wrote...

Did you even read the post? it wasn't about god, it was about a higher power or creator trying kill you, in a futile attempt at showing Ramirez empathy, as empathy is the mother of morality. God was irrelevant to the post, the only reason i used it is because whether you believe in god or not, most people understand the concept of god being a creator, and to the geth the quarians are effectively god, and thats what i was trying to get across.

Told you it wasn't going to go anywhere we wanted it to... I did indeed read the post. I also accounted for its intended audience, which is where I believe you erred. Nuff said?

[Pro_Consul]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Pro_Consul wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

That's not exactly what I'm saying. I'm saying that if you created something and a mistake happened, aren't you allowed allowed to fix it in anyway possible?

In a word: no. Did you really not know the answer to that question already?

1. Husband and wife create a baby that is born with a congenital defect of some sort. In your moral system do they have the right to "fix" the problem by euthanizing the baby?

2. Computer company makes a new type of microprocessor that it puts into service as a control unit for pacemakers. It then finds that the processors are so much more powerful than needed for the job that it wants to recall them all and replace them with cheaper, dumber chips. Do they have right to compel everyone who has one to undergo open heart surgery just so the company can swap out their pacemaker chip for a cheaper model that is more appropriate for the job?

You see, I hope, that the phrase "in any way possible" can be used to cover every conceivable crime, atrocity and form of mischief there is. You are trying to use a technical matter to separate the Quarians' decision from its moral subtext, but this does not make the moral issue go away. It just means you are choosing to ignore morality in favor of purely amoral practicality. And perhaps this is exactly what the Quarians were doing in the first place. It still doesn't change the moral subtext, which directly stems from the simple fact that they were knowingly and purposefully trying to exterminate a new species of sentient life.

1) It's not fair to not be able to fix your OWN mistakes.

2) In the past, yes, the parents could (not saying aI agree with that)

3) If it's going to mess with things, then yes. Also, that isn't a really good example. An AI is potentially dangerous. That microprocessor is just a upgrade that was unnecessary.

Fair? Is it fair to the infant whose life is snuffed out simply it was born to parents who wanted a different kind of child? Fair implies an equitable situation for all involved parties. From the moment the Geth became sentient beings they became one of those parties. You are dancing and dancing in circles, but refusing to commit yourself on key issues, because you would then be forced to admit error. You started out with unreasoning condemnation of the Geth for their immoral acts in systematically exterminating Quarians, even though you could not provide any evidence to prove or even strongly suggest that this had even happened. Simultaneously you refused to similarly condemn the Quarians for their own actual, proven attempt to exterminate the Geth. You then invoked the argument that the Geth are merely "creations", i.e. property, and thus the Quarians were within their rights to do anything they pleased to them. But this directly contradicts all your earlier insistence that the Geth were wrong to kill all those Quarians. After all, if they are simply the Quarians' creations, then anything they do is nothing more than the result of the Quarians' creative abilities, and is thus 100% the fault of the Quarians themselves. But you won't admit this, either.

Seriously, dude, pick a position and stick with it. Defend it if you can, and admit it is wrong if you cannot. Change it if another person shows you a more likely one. IOW, apply some sentience here so we can move this discussion forward instead of in circles.

[InvincibleHero]

I would have to side with the Quarians. They are organic life and there is debate whether synthetics are even alive. I would have an easier time acceting the extermination of a race of AIs and androids over flesh and blood. Their utility is not a factor. The Geth are probbaly more usueful in a combat role, but it doesn't equate IMO.

[Vaenier]

InvincibleHero wrote...

I would have to side with the Quarians. They are organic life and there is debate whether synthetics are even alive. I would have an easier time acceting the extermination of a race of AIs and androids over flesh and blood. Their utility is not a factor. The Geth are probbaly more usueful in a combat role, but it doesn't equate IMO.

So you do not care who attacks first and who is just defending themselves. You only care that the Quarians physical form is more like your own physical form, and dont like how different the Geth are than yourself...

[Null_]

If there was war then even if all organics sided with quarians, geth would probably win.They can outproduce all other races combined, they have better technology, and they are immortal...when mobile platform is destroyed they just transfer to next one. If council helped quarians during morning war then geth would probably lose, but not now. Its peace or good bye organic life