450 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

Vaenier wrote...

Capeo wrote...

I'm not arguing if they are "alive" per se.  We're talking wacky sci-fi here.  But in the scope of the ME universe, yes, I value organically evolved life over robots following programs that can be used as weapons by simply having the tech to overwrite the entire "species" in one shot.  Hence my answer to the OP.  I would side with the quarians.

Hate to break it to you, but humans are merely a program running on an organic computer. They exist that way because that is what survived enough to reproduce. There is nothing special about being made out of meat instead of metal.

Material determinism is a theory, not a proven fact or even accepted theory. Free will comes up a lot.

While we can mathetmatically prove programming, we haven't been able to do the same with human minds.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Vaenier wrote...

Capeo wrote...

I'm not arguing if they are "alive" per se.  We're talking wacky sci-fi here.  But in the scope of the ME universe, yes, I value organically evolved life over robots following programs that can be used as weapons by simply having the tech to overwrite the entire "species" in one shot.  Hence my answer to the OP.  I would side with the quarians.

Hate to break it to you, but humans are merely a program running on an organic computer. They exist that way because that is what survived enough to reproduce. There is nothing special about being made out of meat instead of metal.

And humans can be reprogramed easily too. Indoctrination just makes this laughable.

Your argument comes down to liking the Quarians not because they are right or justified, but because their physical bodies are more like your own. Do you really want to argue its alright to descriminate against a race because they are different than you?

Geth can be reprogammed in nanoseconds and keep the same effectiveness, while organics cannot and lose effectiveness. That makes the Geth a  larger threat.

[Vaenier]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

Capeo wrote...

I'm not arguing if they are "alive" per se.  We're talking wacky sci-fi here.  But in the scope of the ME universe, yes, I value organically evolved life over robots following programs that can be used as weapons by simply having the tech to overwrite the entire "species" in one shot.  Hence my answer to the OP.  I would side with the quarians.

Hate to break it to you, but humans are merely a program running on an organic computer. They exist that way because that is what survived enough to reproduce. There is nothing special about being made out of meat instead of metal.

Material determinism is a theory, not a proven fact or even accepted theory. Free will comes up a lot.

While we can mathetmatically prove programming, we haven't been able to do the same with human minds.

We run on the interactions of atoms. Their behavior can be predetermined, thus the sum of their actions can be predetermined, thus our minds are predetermined.

[Vaenier]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

Capeo wrote...

I'm not arguing if they are "alive" per se.  We're talking wacky sci-fi here.  But in the scope of the ME universe, yes, I value organically evolved life over robots following programs that can be used as weapons by simply having the tech to overwrite the entire "species" in one shot.  Hence my answer to the OP.  I would side with the quarians.

Hate to break it to you, but humans are merely a program running on an organic computer. They exist that way because that is what survived enough to reproduce. There is nothing special about being made out of meat instead of metal.

And humans can be reprogramed easily too. Indoctrination just makes this laughable.

Your argument comes down to liking the Quarians not because they are right or justified, but because their physical bodies are more like your own. Do you really want to argue its alright to descriminate against a race because they are different than you?

Geth can be reprogammed in nanoseconds and keep the same effectiveness, while organics cannot and lose effectiveness. That makes the Geth a  larger threat.

The race that wants to be left alone and has done so for 300 years even while possessing a fleet capable of destroying all other life in the galaxy yet has never done so is a threat. The race that likes genocide and wants to brain wash the Geth to gain power using said fleet is not. K...

[Pro_Consul]

Vaenier wrote...

We run on the interactions of atoms. Their behavior can be predetermined, thus the sum of their actions can be predetermined, thus our minds are predetermined.

While I agree with your overall point, this argument is not valid. This kind of determinism is completely at odds with quantum mathematics, and neither one has been proven to be more true than the other. In fact, the prevailing scientific thinking is that there is an as-yet undiscovered unifying principle which explains why at one level particles seem to behave in a predictable manner, while at another they appear to be inherently unknowable and unpredictable. Basically the smaller you go, the less particles behave in ways that can currently be understood or explained, and the more their behavior seems to be at least partly random in nature. I think it would be better not to try to use particle physics in what is essentially a metaphysical debate.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Pro_Consul wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Let's try to stay polite to one another, alright? I think we can have a discussion without direct and indirect insults.

I wasn't trying to insult you. That was sorta the point of my not singling anyone out the first time this came up. I admit, though, that my precise way of speaking can sometimes strike people as insolent. But please believe me when I assure you this is not the case. I am not being snide; I am being, or trying to be, precise.

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

The HG were infected with a Reaper virus. That doesn't make them "more" sapient. They were more or less controlled.

Still not clear on why you think this is significant within this context. Just guessing here, but are you trying to say that the whole religion thing was a direct result of the Reaper indoctrination attempt, and that absent the Reaper meddling the Geth would be incapable of having religious views? If so, then you might be onto something, or you might not. I am reluctant to put any effort into analyzing which, though, until I know if that is even what you are trying to say.

1) Let's move past this.
2) That's what I was trying to say.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Vaenier wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

Capeo wrote...

I'm not arguing if they are "alive" per se.  We're talking wacky sci-fi here.  But in the scope of the ME universe, yes, I value organically evolved life over robots following programs that can be used as weapons by simply having the tech to overwrite the entire "species" in one shot.  Hence my answer to the OP.  I would side with the quarians.

Hate to break it to you, but humans are merely a program running on an organic computer. They exist that way because that is what survived enough to reproduce. There is nothing special about being made out of meat instead of metal.

And humans can be reprogramed easily too. Indoctrination just makes this laughable.

Your argument comes down to liking the Quarians not because they are right or justified, but because their physical bodies are more like your own. Do you really want to argue its alright to descriminate against a race because they are different than you?

Geth can be reprogammed in nanoseconds and keep the same effectiveness, while organics cannot and lose effectiveness. That makes the Geth a  larger threat.

The race that wants to be left alone and has done so for 300 years even while possessing a fleet capable of destroying all other life in the galaxy yet has never done so is a threat. The race that likes genocide and wants to brain wash the Geth to gain power using said fleet is not. K...

Wanting to be left alone doesn't mean that they aren't a threat. They are capable of attacking the Citadel (which they did, I know they were heretics but they were STILL Geth), they almost exterminated the Quarians, and they attack any ship that enters Geth space.

Modifié par Ramirez Wolfen, 05 février 2011 - 10:14 .

[Vaenier]

Pro_Consul wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

We run on the interactions of atoms. Their behavior can be predetermined, thus the sum of their actions can be predetermined, thus our minds are predetermined.

While I agree with your overall point, this argument is not valid. This kind of determinism is completely at odds with quantum mathematics, and neither one has been proven to be more true than the other. In fact, the prevailing scientific thinking is that there is an as-yet undiscovered unifying principle which explains why at one level particles seem to behave in a predictable manner, while at another they appear to be inherently unknowable and unpredictable. Basically the smaller you go, the less particles behave in ways that can currently be understood or explained, and the more their behavior seems to be at least partly random in nature. I think it would be better not to try to use particle physics in what is essentially a metaphysical debate.

I guess so.

But the point isnt so much that they can be predicted. Its more about the fact that is how the mind works. Its physics, not some mystical soul that appeared in the last billion years that makes people run. they are computers. maybe with truely random number generators, but computers still.

[Vaenier]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Wanting to be left alone doesn't mean that they aren't a threat. They are capable of attacking the Citadel (which they did, I know they were heretics but they were STILL Geth), they almost exterminated the Quarians, and they attack any ship that enters Geth space.

Wow... Lets kill all humans because Cerberus exists. Perfectly justafiable.
If they wanted the Quarians dead, they would all be dead. They didnt almost anything.
They should have taken the hint and stop tresspassing. They want to be left alone. Intruders are met with force.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Vaenier wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Wanting to be left alone doesn't mean that they aren't a threat. They are capable of attacking the Citadel (which they did, I know they were heretics but they were STILL Geth), they almost exterminated the Quarians, and they attack any ship that enters Geth space.

Wow... Lets kill all humans because Cerberus exists. Perfectly justafiable.
If they wanted the Quarians dead, they would all be dead. They didnt almost anything.
They should have taken the hint and stop tresspassing. They want to be left alone. Intruders are met with force.

1) That's not what I meant. I mean that they are all capable of doing this. And remember, the Geth think differently than organics and can achieve a consensus in nanoseconds. Humans can't.
2) The only reason the Quarians even still exist is because the Quarians retreated.
3) If Geth want peace, killing innocent people for traveling isn't a good idea.

Modifié par Ramirez Wolfen, 05 février 2011 - 10:29 .

[Ramirez Wolfen]

DEATH TO GETH!!! Nah, I'm just kidding. But for proof the True Geth DO attack ships that enter Geth space, go here and go to the "creation" section.



http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Geth

[Vaenier]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Wanting to be left alone doesn't mean that they aren't a threat. They are capable of attacking the Citadel (which they did, I know they were heretics but they were STILL Geth), they almost exterminated the Quarians, and they attack any ship that enters Geth space.

Wow... Lets kill all humans because Cerberus exists. Perfectly justafiable.
If they wanted the Quarians dead, they would all be dead. They didnt almost anything.
They should have taken the hint and stop tresspassing. They want to be left alone. Intruders are met with force.

1) That's not what I meant. I mean that they are all capable of doing this. And remember, the Geth think differently than organics and can achieve a consensus in nanoseconds. Humans can't.
2) The only reason the Quarians even still exist is because the Quarians retreated.
3) If Geth want peace, killing innocent people for traveling isn't a good idea.

1. Everyone is capable of attacking the Citadel. A single terrorist could blow it up and let its arms spiral out into space with no effort. Any faction could develope a biological weapon capable of killing trillions. They all get along fine. Why should the Geth be any different. They have shown no signs of aggression. Only self defense.
2. Duh. When the Quarians stopped attacking, they stopped being a threat. If they had faught to the end, they all would have died.
3. Tall fenses make good neighbors.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Vaenier wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Wanting to be left alone doesn't mean that they aren't a threat. They are capable of attacking the Citadel (which they did, I know they were heretics but they were STILL Geth), they almost exterminated the Quarians, and they attack any ship that enters Geth space.

Wow... Lets kill all humans because Cerberus exists. Perfectly justafiable.
If they wanted the Quarians dead, they would all be dead. They didnt almost anything.
They should have taken the hint and stop tresspassing. They want to be left alone. Intruders are met with force.

1) That's not what I meant. I mean that they are all capable of doing this. And remember, the Geth think differently than organics and can achieve a consensus in nanoseconds. Humans can't.
2) The only reason the Quarians even still exist is because the Quarians retreated.
3) If Geth want peace, killing innocent people for traveling isn't a good idea.

1. Everyone is capable of attacking the Citadel. A single terrorist could blow it up and let its arms spiral out into space with no effort. Any faction could develope a biological weapon capable of killing trillions. They all get along fine. Why should the Geth be any different. They have shown no signs of aggression. Only self defense.
2. Duh. When the Quarians stopped attacking, they stopped being a threat. If they had faught to the end, they all would have died.
3. Tall fenses make good neighbors.

The Geth would unaminously decide to do that. Organics wouldn't.

[Vaenier]

They wont though. Its a fact they will not always decide on something. That is why the Heretics exist. That is why you are given the choice to brainwash the Heretics. They have opinions. The disagree with each other. They will even fight each other.

Modifié par Vaenier, 05 février 2011 - 10:52 .

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Vaenier wrote...

They wont though. Its a fact they will not all decide on something. That is why the Heretics exist. That is why you are given the choice to brainwash the Heretics. They have opinions. The disagree with each other. They will even fight each other.

Where is it written that they won't?

[Vaenier]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

They wont though. Its a fact they will not all always decide on something. That is why the Heretics exist. That is why you are given the choice to brainwash the Heretics. They have opinions. The disagree with each other. They will even fight each other.

Where is it written that they won't?

All = Always. oops.

[wulf3n]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
The Geth would unaminously decide to do that. Organics wouldn't.

That actually makes geth less of a threat. If it requires unanimous consensus to attack (in most cases, the heretics thing kinda screws this up, but i'll continue), the odds are a lot smaller, whereas organics don't care what the rest of their species think and'll attack anyway, making the odds of an organic attack a lot higher.

A simpler explanation

A geth attack requires all(most) in agreement.
An organic attack requires one lone nut job.

Modifié par wulf3n, 05 février 2011 - 11:00 .

[Ramirez Wolfen]

wulf3n wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
The Geth would unaminously decide to do that. Organics wouldn't.

That actually makes geth less of a threat. If it requires unanimous consensus to attack (in most cases, the heretics thing kinda screws this up, but i'll continue), the odds are a lot smaller, whereas organics don't care what the rest of their species think and'll attack anyway, making the odds of an organic attack a lot higher.

A simpler explanation

A geth attack requires all(most) in agreement.
An organic attack requires one lone nut job.

Geth think by logic and they make decisions faster than any organic.

[Vaenier]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

wulf3n wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
The Geth would unaminously decide to do that. Organics wouldn't.

That actually makes geth less of a threat. If it requires unanimous consensus to attack (in most cases, the heretics thing kinda screws this up, but i'll continue), the odds are a lot smaller, whereas organics don't care what the rest of their species think and'll attack anyway, making the odds of an organic attack a lot higher.

A simpler explanation

A geth attack requires all(most) in agreement.
An organic attack requires one lone nut job.

Geth think by logic and they make decisions faster than any organic.

I fail to see the significance. Do you also want the Rachni extinct for their hive mind? Do you want the Salarians extinct for their much faster brains? Is there some arbitrary line you drew in the sand that you have to stay behind in terms of brain power?

And the fact they act on logic and reason instead of random emotions make them more of a threat than an impulsive emotion driven race that acts on a whim without regaurd for the consequences?

Modifié par Vaenier, 05 février 2011 - 11:05 .

[wulf3n]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
Geth think by logic and they make decisions faster than any organic.

Speed of the decision doesn't really have an impact on the actual decision. The odds of all geth being in agreement to attack the council is a lot less than the odds that 1 organic is going to have a grudge against the council for some reason and try and destroy it.

edit: It's sounding more and more like you have an inferiority complex when it comes to sentient machines, and are letting your fears affect rational judgement.

Modifié par wulf3n, 05 février 2011 - 11:09 .

[Ramirez Wolfen]

wulf3n wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
Geth think by logic and they make decisions faster than any organic.

Speed of the decision doesn't really have an impact on the actual decision. The odds of all geth being in agreement to attack the council is a lot less than the odds that 1 organic is going to have a grudge against the council for some reason and try and destroy it.

edit: It's sounding more and more like you have an inferiority complex when it comes to sentient machines, and are letting your fears affect rational judgement.

But which is more likely to succeed? The Geth (who behind the Reapers, are the most advanced group in the galaxy) or just one person?

[Rip504]

Of course siding with the Quarians is the best choice here.

[Null_]

In very very long run siding with geth is bad idea. They will just keep growing, strip mining everything for resources to make more geth which in turn will make more geth. Eventually Geth will run out of space/resources and bam "consensus reached. exterminate organic life so we are able to advance further"

They show no agression just becuse its not logical for them to attack. It would gain them nothing. Geth dont have emotions, they act based on logic.Geth want to advance, eventually organics will be on their way even if we are at peace with them

Also I dont buy this "justified self defense" crap... Yeah killing billions of civilians is justified self defense. Kicking whole race away from their homeworld(especially when its pretty much only planet they can live normally on) is justified self defense... yeah right

Modifié par Null_, 05 février 2011 - 11:56 .

[Pro_Consul]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Pro_Consul wrote...
 are you trying to say that the whole religion thing was a direct result of the Reaper indoctrination attempt, and that absent the Reaper meddling the Geth would be incapable of having religious views?

2) That's what I was trying to say.

Okay. Thought about this a bit, checked a few online resources and I think that this theory may indeed be true. It would certainly explain why the TG are so completely at a loss trying to understand their HG kin. Of course this still leaves open the question of whether they can or should be held responsible for any of the nasty things that happened to the Quarians during the Morning War. What do you think?

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Pro_Consul wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Pro_Consul wrote...
 are you trying to say that the whole religion thing was a direct result of the Reaper indoctrination attempt, and that absent the Reaper meddling the Geth would be incapable of having religious views?

2) That's what I was trying to say.

Okay. Thought about this a bit, checked a few online resources and I think that this theory may indeed be true. It would certainly explain why the TG are so completely at a loss trying to understand their HG kin. Of course this still leaves open the question of whether they can or should be held responsible for any of the nasty things that happened to the Quarians during the Morning War. What do you think?

According to popular opinion, war is violence, and violence isn't justifiable, so yes, the Geth can be held responsible.

Modifié par Ramirez Wolfen, 06 février 2011 - 12:14 .