450 réponses à ce sujet

[Sandbox47]

The Quarians have the moral highground by being outcasts for no good reason. They are also very good at ships and tech which is handy in an ENTIRE race. Geth, on the other hand, are bits of wiring that is hardy. They can be rebuilt even if their whole race is wiped out. Quarians can't be.

And, as someone already said, I'd fight the Galaxy for Tali, so...

[Zing Freelancer]

Ramirez, all you are doing is arguing. I dont even know about WHAT, it is long past since you had a valid argument to stand by and promote. Now if you cannot write something comprehensive to why the said student who took the law in his hand dont have the right to beat up every student in school.
Then please, excuse yourself from this threat.

Just dont come with such gibberish as "There is law he must obey!", say that to a criminal when he is pointing a gun in your face: "Mr.Criminal, you cannot point a gun in my face, the law prohibits it". But he die of laughter.

Laws are nothing unless they are enforced, so if there is no law enforcements there is nothing preventing a mother from demanding her childs life back? But I think I made myself perfectly clear the first time, you just decided to ignore my point. What leads me to believe you are just bored out of your mind

As for Shepard and Rachni, you had the choice to kill them outright. Yet you granted them freedom. In my books, thats pretty close to being their God and creator. But then again, I made myself perfectly clear the first time, your just trolling around.

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
Independent thought doesn't matter when you are a machine created for a purpose.

Your comments are insults people who was forced to serve as slaves for wealthier people. I bet their would agree, they are just mindless slaves for others to amuse. No wait, they are different because human slaves are not MACHINES!???

Sandbox47 wrote...

The Quarians have the moral highground
by being outcasts for no good reason. They are also very good at ships
and tech which is handy in an ENTIRE race. Geth, on the other hand, are
bits of wiring that is hardy. They can be rebuilt even if their whole
race is wiped out. Quarians can't be.
And, as someone already said, I'd fight the Galaxy for Tali, so...

Good luck, I hope Quarian vs Geth conflict can be meditated over in ME3.

Modifié par Zing Freelancer, 06 février 2011 - 01:21 .

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Zing Freelancer wrote...

Ramirez, all you are doing is arguing. I dont even know about WHAT, it is long past since you had a valid argument to stand by and promote. Now if you cannot write something comprehensive to why the said student who took the law in his hand dont have the right to beat up every student in school.
Then please, excuse yourself from this threat.

Just dont come with such gibberish as "There is law he must obey!", say that to a criminal when he is pointing a gun in your face: "Mr.Criminal, you cannot point a gun in my face, the law prohibits it". But he die of laughter.

Laws are nothing unless they are enforced, so if there is no law enforcements there is nothing preventing a mother from demanding her childs life back? But I think I made myself perfectly clear the first time, you just decided to ignore my point. What leads me to believe you are just bored out of your mind

As for Shepard and Rachni, you had the choice to kill them outright. Yet you granted them freedom. In my books, thats pretty close to being their God and creator. But then again, I made myself perfectly clear the first time, your just trolling around.

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
Independent thought doesn't matter when you are a machine created for a purpose.

Your comments are insults people who was forced to serve as slaves for wealthier people. I bet their would agree, they are just mindless slaves for others to amuse. No wait, they are different because human slaves are not MACHINES!??? lol, idiot

Sandbox47 wrote...

The Quarians have the moral highground
by being outcasts for no good reason. They are also very good at ships
and tech which is handy in an ENTIRE race. Geth, on the other hand, are
bits of wiring that is hardy. They can be rebuilt even if their whole
race is wiped out. Quarians can't be.
And, as someone already said, I'd fight the Galaxy for Tali, so...

Good luck, I hope Quarian vs Geth conflict can be meditated over in ME3.

Why are you calling me names? This is a discussion, not a flame war.

Modifié par Ramirez Wolfen, 06 février 2011 - 01:21 .

[Zing Freelancer]

Aw, sorry did I actually write that? A thought slipped my mind via fingers, I beg of forgiveness.

[Sandbox47]

@Zing
About the Rachni: There doesn't have to be a "power-kick" reason for letting them go. One might let them go on a moral basis. To give them a chance on redemption. Or perhaps to give them a chance to finish their war, either way the argument holds no meaning on this discussion.

About the slave/machine: EDI is a machine with independent thought. Your response leads me to assume that you were a slave at some point in your life. No, slavery is not connected to thinking or machinery. Neither or these three are connected, come to think of that. Human may or may not be a slave and a machine might or might not be able to think.

EDIT: I'm not accusing or opposing you guys. Just a thought that struck me.

@Ramirez:
About the slave/machine that is mentioned above: Having a purpose does not remove freedom and having independent thought does no absolve you of your purspose.

I don't know what I mean, but I think that I'm agreeing with you.

Modifié par Sandbox47, 06 février 2011 - 01:31 .

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Zing Freelancer wrote...

Aw, sorry did I actually write that? A thought slipped my mind via fingers, I beg of forgiveness.

Nevermind this. When you wish to prove a point, insults are unnecessary.

[Zing Freelancer]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Nevermind this. When you wish to prove a point, insults are unnecessary.

I already have proved my point, if you desire to keep on writing gibberish or one liners. Then go on, what do I care for people who troll too much?



Um, yes I dd call YOU a troll for dramatic lack of arguments or a respectable response to my arguments.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Zing Freelancer wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
Nevermind this. When you wish to prove a point, insults are unnecessary.

I already have proved my point, if you desire to keep on writing gibberish or one liners. Then go on, what do I care for people who troll too much?

Um, yes I dd call YOU a troll for dramatic lack of arguments or a respectable response to my arguments.

I'm talking about you calling me an idiot. I don't care if you call me a troll, because I know that I'm not.

[Pro_Consul]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Independent thought doesn't matter when you are a machine created for a purpose.

Have you ever heard the old adage, "With rights come responsibilities." Well, it works both ways. You cannot have a right without at least one accompanying responsibility, nor can you have a responsibility without having a right. With the right to life comes the responsibility to respect others' right to life. With the right to free speech comes the responsibility not to abuse speech for destructive purposes (e.g. shouting fire in a crowded theater just to cause a stampede). Well, you cannot hold some responsible for something if they never had a right to make a choice in the matter. You cannot hold your hammer responsible for smashing your thumb - it had no choice on where it was going to strike. You cannot hold your child responsible for failing to pay for their own upkeep when they are denied the right to work.

If, as you say, the Geth have no rights then it naturally follows that they have no responsibilities, either. In this equation, according to your own stated position, ALL of the rights are exclusive to the Quarians alone, therefore all of the responsibility is reserved to them as well. Was the outcome bad? Then it was entirely the Quarians fault for not exercising their right of creation with a little more skill and caution, i.e. a little more responsibly.

[Zing Freelancer]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
I'm talking about you calling me an idiot. I don't care if you call me a troll, because I know that I'm not.

We are back to that again?
I mean, was you not asking about proving something and then I told you that I already wrote enough posts for you that you simply ignored? Or left attended with a one liner saying some gibberish?

Could you please stop going of-topic?

[Zing Freelancer]

Pro_Consul wrote...
Have you ever heard the old adage, "With rights come responsibilities." Well, it works both ways. You cannot have a right without at least one accompanying responsibility, nor can you have a responsibility without having a right. With the right to life comes the responsibility to respect others' right to life. With the right to free speech comes the responsibility not to abuse speech for destructive purposes (e.g. shouting fire in a crowded theater just to cause a stampede). Well, you cannot hold some responsible for something if they never had a right to make a choice in the matter. You cannot hold your hammer responsible for smashing your thumb - it had no choice on where it was going to strike. You cannot hold your child responsible for failing to pay for their own upkeep when they are denied the right to work.

If, as you say, the Geth have no rights then it naturally follows that they have no responsibilities, either. In this equation, according to your own stated position, ALL of the rights are exclusive to the Quarians alone, therefore all of the responsibility is reserved to them as well. Was the outcome bad? Then it was entirely the Quarians fault for not exercising their right of creation with a little more skill and caution, i.e. a little more responsibly.

Well said.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Zing Freelancer wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
I'm talking about you calling me an idiot. I don't care if you call me a troll, because I know that I'm not.

We are back to that again?
I mean, was you not asking about proving something and then I told you that I already wrote enough posts for you that you simply ignored? Or left attended with a one liner saying some gibberish?

Could you please stop going of-topic?

Please stay on topic.

[Zing Freelancer]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
Please stay on topic.

Remind me what we was talking about again?

[thatguy212]

Okay on topic post, siding with the quarians would not be the better option in the long run, the geth are a much better choice for the long run, the geth are more advanced and we could learn alot of things from them, they don't need a planet of their own so there is no deputes regarding colonization rights, i'm not a 100% on this one but i believe they use a lot less resources then other race

[Vaenier]

This thread has taught me how easy it is for people to justify racism.

Also, before I leave "Ramirez, take out that Reaper fleet with this paper clip!"

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Vaenier wrote...

This thread has taught me how easy it is for people to justify racism.
Also, before I leave "Ramirez, take out that Reaper fleet with this paper clip!"

No one is justifying racism.

[Zing Freelancer]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

This thread has taught me how easy it is for people to justify racism.
Also, before I leave "Ramirez, take out that Reaper fleet with this paper clip!"

No one is justifying racism.

Prove it.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Zing Freelancer wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

This thread has taught me how easy it is for people to justify racism.
Also, before I leave "Ramirez, take out that Reaper fleet with this paper clip!"

No one is justifying racism.

Prove it.

The topic of this thread isn't about justifying racism or genocide. That is proof (for this thread at least). The other thread is somewhat for that.

[thatguy212]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Zing Freelancer wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

This thread has taught me how easy it is for people to justify racism.
Also, before I leave "Ramirez, take out that Reaper fleet with this paper clip!"

No one is justifying racism.

Prove it.

The topic of this thread isn't about justifying racism or genocide. That is proof (for this thread at least). The other thread is somewhat for that.

just because the topic isn't about racism and genocide doesn't mean this thread isn't full of people trying to justify it

[Ramirez Wolfen]

thatguy212 wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Zing Freelancer wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

This thread has taught me how easy it is for people to justify racism.
Also, before I leave "Ramirez, take out that Reaper fleet with this paper clip!"

No one is justifying racism.

Prove it.

The topic of this thread isn't about justifying racism or genocide. That is proof (for this thread at least). The other thread is somewhat for that.

just because the topic isn't about racism and genocide doesn't mean this thread isn't full of people trying to justify it

They are all off topic (incuding me). But to the original topic, I believe the Quarians are the best group to side with.

[Pro_Consul]

Since this thread is hopefully winding down at long last, I will clarify my own answer to the OP's question. I would have one of two different answers depending on how I was RPing my Shep.

For a renegade Shep I would be all about practicality. "What benefits my mission the most, moral niceties notwithstanding?" In that vein I would side with the Geth, since they are clearly the more powerful potential ally by far.

For a paragon Shep I would probably go along with the Council's most likely response: remain neutral and then see if the winner was worth allying once the war was over. The Council would of course choose this course out of cowardice, but my paragon Shep would sit it out for two reasons:

1. I would be unwilling to side with the Quarians because their relentless drive to destroy or enslave the Geth is morally repugnant.

2. I would be unwilling to fight against the Quarians mostly because of Tali, but also because their actions toward me personally have been honorable for the most part. I would also refrain from fighting against the Quarians because their cause would already be completely hopeless anyway, and fighting against them would seem like teaming up with a squad of Krogan in order to defeat a single pyjak.

Actually I just thought of a third reason why, as paragon Shep, I would sit this fight out (and why I might sit out as renegade, too):

3. I would view the war itself as a massive waste of resources and a huge diversion of energies from the real priority: finding and implementing ways to defend against the Reapers.

[Capeo]

Vaenier wrote...

Capeo wrote...

I'm not arguing if they are "alive" per se.  We're talking wacky sci-fi here.  But in the scope of the ME universe, yes, I value organically evolved life over robots following programs that can be used as weapons by simply having the tech to overwrite the entire "species" in one shot.  Hence my answer to the OP.  I would side with the quarians.

Hate to break it to you, but humans are merely a program running on an organic computer. They exist that way because that is what survived enough to reproduce. There is nothing special about being made out of meat instead of metal.

And humans can be reprogramed easily too. Indoctrination just makes this laughable.

No, humans are not just a program running on a organic computer.  That's a foolish statement in light of current neurobiology.  Consciousness is an emergent factor of millions of influences.  It in no way acts like transistors and semiconductors and is far more flexible than any computer is.  Hence humans distinct personalities and individuality. 

And indoctrination is not flipping a swtich.  Humans and other races can tell something is happening to them.  They can resist it and others of their species can tell that something is wrong.  A computer doesn't remember its life prior to being rewritten.  It is only what its current program is.  Organic species carry their genetic and social individuality with them.  A geth is just a walking, talking computer getting its information sent to it froma singular place.  It wouldn't even know that it is overwritten.

Vaenier wrote...
Your argument comes down to liking the Quarians not because they are
right or justified, but because their physical bodies are more like your
own. Do you really want to argue its alright to descriminate against a
race because they are different than you?

First off, don't start couching things in real world terms.  That's stupid and insulting.  We're talking a space opera here with frigging talking computers and aliens.  To answer your question in terms of the game, yes, I think it is right to side with any organic race, no matter what it looks like, over the geth if it came to that.  I've laid out my reasoning fully in that regard.

Modifié par Capeo, 06 février 2011 - 05:10 .

[Capeo]

Vaenier wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

Capeo wrote...

I'm not arguing if they are "alive" per se.  We're talking wacky sci-fi here.  But in the scope of the ME universe, yes, I value organically evolved life over robots following programs that can be used as weapons by simply having the tech to overwrite the entire "species" in one shot.  Hence my answer to the OP.  I would side with the quarians.

Hate to break it to you, but humans are merely a program running on an organic computer. They exist that way because that is what survived enough to reproduce. There is nothing special about being made out of meat instead of metal.

Material determinism is a theory, not a proven fact or even accepted theory. Free will comes up a lot.

While we can mathetmatically prove programming, we haven't been able to do the same with human minds.

We run on the interactions of atoms. Their behavior can be predetermined, thus the sum of their actions can be predetermined, thus our minds are predetermined.

It's hard to describe how wrong you are here from both a neurobiological and physics standpoint.  The interaction of atoms can't be predetermined on a quantum scale.  Read up on the Uncertainty Principle.