450 réponses à ce sujet

[Exile Isan]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
If I remember correctly (I may be wrong on this, if I am, I'm sorry), during the confrontation between Legion and Tali, Legion says "it's no longer your planet" or something like that.

Well, possession is nine tenths of the law.

I've never heard Legion say that, but then I've always used the paragon dialog options.

I too see the parallels between the Geth and the Reapers, however I'm on the fence as to whether the geth would actually become like the Reapers, i.e. feel it necessary to eradicate advanced organic life every few thousand years.

On a side note I think it's amusing that some people seem to be horrified that the geth tried to wipe out the quarians during the Morning War, but are not horrified about the quarians trying to do the same thing to the geth which is what sparked said war to begin with.

Modifié par Exile Isan, 03 février 2011 - 07:55 .

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Exile Isan wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
If I remember correctly (I may be wrong on this, if I am, I'm sorry), during the confrontation between Legion and Tali, Legion says "it's no longer your planet" or something like that.

Well, possession is nine tenths of the law.

I've never heard Legion say that, but then I've always used the paragon dialog options.

I too see the parallels between the Geth and the Reapers, however I'm on the fence as to whether the geth would actually become like the Reapers, i.e. feel it necessary to eradicate advanced organic life every few thousand years.

On a side note I think it's amusing that some people seem to be horrified that the geth tried to wipe out the quarians during the Morning War, but are not horrified about the quarians trying to do the same thing to the geth which is what sparked said war to begin with.

Did you read the EDIT part? I said it was incorrect. Also, I don't think that the Geth will do exactly what the Reapers do. I think they would just wipe out sentient organic life in general.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The quarians failed at wiping out the geth. The geth succeeded at wiping out the quarians. That's why it's more horrifying.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

The quarians failed at wiping out the geth. The geth succeeded at wiping out the quarians. That's why it's more horrifying.

And who's to say they wouldn't do it again? They think logically, not like organics. They may eventually think that the Quarians may always be trying to bring the Geth bsck under Quarian control (even if it's not actually happening) and decide to do away with a potential threat.

[Pro_Consul]

Spideywebs wrote...

Good points. I think the humans are a great threat to the rest of the galaxy, especially with having people like TIM walking around. That said, I'm human, and I think the Geth are more of a threat that the quarians

And ofcourse there is conflict between organics, but that can't sometimes be settled through mediation, even though one side may be vastly superior to the other. With the Geth, if they think it is probable that they will emerge victorious, they will sieze their opportunity. At least that is my take of the Geth.

I disagree on this bit. From all accounts the Geth already had their chance and chose not to take it. And according to Legion the Geth believe that self determination is an inherent right of all species, with synthetic or organic. So as long as they are not being directly threatened the Geth would most likely mind their own business. After all, that is precisely what they have been doing since the end of their war with the Quarians (Reaper-influenced heretics notwithstanding). In this case the Geth's actions seem to be perfectly in line with their stated motivations, if we accept that the "heretics" were an aberration caused by the Reapers.

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

The quarians didn't deserve to be exterminated just because the geth didn't deserve it either. And just because the geth, don't have any specific desire to attack organics now doesn't absolve them of their crimes against the quarians in the past. Neither does the fact that the quarians started the war.

I don't believe that any real world peoples forfeit there right to existence because some of them committed  genocide, so I don't believe the same is true for the entirety of the quarians either.

When you try to kill someone who is not threatening you or anyone else, that is murder. That is a micro-scale moral point I think we both already agree upon. Well, it also applies on a macro scale: when your race, without provocation, tries to commit genocide on another race that was not threatening anyone, then your race is committing species-murder. Now, to extend, if you are trying to murder me and I kill you in self-defense, that is morally acceptable. Perhaps you didn't necessarily "deserve" to die, but it was the risk you took when you set out to commit murder and so it is no crime if you end up dead as a result of that attempt. Again, I think we can both readily agree on that. So on the macro scale, if your species is trying to exterminate mine and in the process of defending ourselves my race exterminates yours instead, that is morally acceptable. So for the duration of that conflict the one who initiated the morally unacceptable activity is "in the wrong" and forfeits all rights to complain of the other side. Of course if the conflict ends with both sides surviving, and then one side decides to resume the conflict at a later time, the side that resumed the conflict is then the one "in the wrong" and foreits all rights to complain of the other.

In this case the Geth have committed no "crimes" against the Quarians, now or in the past (heretics notwithstanding). The Quarians tried to exterminate them without provocation, so the Geth defended themselves to the extent necessary to end that conflict, i.e. by driving the Quarians into full evacuation and retreat. They could have made an effort to wipe out the Quarian species at that time, but instead chose to bring the conflict to an end by merely driving them away. That is not a "crime" in any sense that I can see; it is simply a would-be genocidal race getting off easy in that the target of their atrocious crime decided to stop at defeating them instead of wiping them out. And since the end of that conflict the only ones we have seen making any plans at resuming it are the Quarians. So at this point (the end of ME2) the Geth still have the moral high ground as the ones defending themselves, or preparing to defend themselves, against genocidal aggressors and/or enslaving conquerors (since the Quarians seem to be divided on motive).

OTOH, the Quarians have no moral leg to stand on if they resume the fight to "reclaim" their homeworld. That world ceased to be exclusively "theirs" the moment they created another sentient species on it; it became the homeworld of both the Quarians AND the Geth at that point. And the Quarians sacrificed all rights to it when they unilaterally decided to exterminate the other species for whom it was home and then subsequently lost the war they had started. The only morally acceptable way for the Quarians to regain habitation rights on that world is if they earn forgiveness and permission from the Geth....or if the Geth start a war of extermination against the Quarians and subsequently lose the planet in the process.

Modifié par Pro_Consul, 03 février 2011 - 08:41 .

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Pro_Consul wrote...

Spideywebs wrote...

Good points. I think the humans are a great threat to the rest of the galaxy, especially with having people like TIM walking around. That said, I'm human, and I think the Geth are more of a threat that the quarians

And ofcourse there is conflict between organics, but that can't sometimes be settled through mediation, even though one side may be vastly superior to the other. With the Geth, if they think it is probable that they will emerge victorious, they will sieze their opportunity. At least that is my take of the Geth.

I disagree on this bit. From all accounts the Geth already had their chance and chose not to take it. And according to Legion the Geth believe that self determination is an inherent right of all species, with synthetic or organic. So as long as they are not being directly threatened the Geth would most likely mind their own business. After all, that is precisely what they have been doing since the end of their war with the Quarians (Reaper-influenced heretics notwithstanding). In this case the Geth's actions seem to be perfectly in line with their stated motivations, if we accept that the "heretics" were an aberration caused by the Reapers.

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

The quarians didn't deserve to be exterminated just because the geth didn't deserve it either. And just because the geth, don't have any specific desire to attack organics now doesn't absolve them of their crimes against the quarians in the past. Neither does the fact that the quarians started the war.

I don't believe that any real world peoples forfeit there right to existence because some of them committed  genocide, so I don't believe the same is true for the entirety of the quarians either.

When you try to kill someone who is not threatening you or anyone else, that is murder. That is a micro-scale moral point I think we both already agree upon. Well, it also applies on a macro scale: when your race, without provocation, tries to commit genocide on another race that was not threatening anyone, then your race is committing species-murder. Now, to extend, if you are trying to murder me and I kill you in self-defense, that is morally acceptable. Perhaps you didn't necessarily "deserve" to die, but it was the risk you took when you set out to commit murder and so it is no crime if you end up dead as a result of that attempt. Again, I think we can both readily agree on that. So on the macro scale, if your species is trying to exterminate mine and in the process of defending ourselves my race exterminates yours instead, that is morally acceptable. So for the duration of that conflict the one who initiated the morally unacceptable activity is "in the wrong" and forfeits all rights to complain of the other side. Of course if the conflict ends with both sides surviving, and then one side decides to resume the conflict at a later time, the side that resumed the conflict is then the one "in the wrong" and foreits all rights to complain of the other.

In this case the Geth have committed no "crimes" against the Quarians, now or in the past (heretics notwithstanding). The Quarians tried to exterminate them without provocation, so the Geth defended themselves to the extent necessary to end that conflict, i.e. by driving the Quarians into full evacuation and retreat. They could have made an effort to wipe out the Quarian species at that time, but instead chose to bring the conflict to an end by merely driving them away. That is not a "crime" in any sense that I can see; it is simply a would-be genocidal race getting off easy in that the target of their atrocious crime decided to stop at defeating them instead of wiping them out. And since the end of that conflict the only ones we have seen making any plans at resuming it are the Quarians. So at this point (the end of ME2) the Geth still have the moral high ground as the ones defending themselves, or preparing to defend themselves, against genocidal aggressors and/or enslaving conquerors (since the Quarians seem to be divided on motive).

OTOH, the Quarians have no moral leg to stand on if they resume the fight to "reclaim" their homeworld. That world ceased to be exclusively "theirs" the moment they created another sentient species on it; it became the homeworld of both the Quarians AND the Geth at that point. And the Quarians sacrificed all rights to it when they unilaterally decided to exterminate the other species for whom it was home and then subsequently lost the war they had started. The only morally acceptable way for the Quarians to regain habitation rights on that world is if they earn forgiveness and permission from the Geth.

The Quarians attacked the Geth as a preemptive strike.The Geth were starting to question there purpose and why they were doing the hard labor. I think it's hinted that there might have been war anyway. So I also think that the Quarians were thinking in self-defense as well.

[G-man_89]

Quarians would be no match for the geth in war. Quarians have old crappy ships and the geth have possibly the most advanced technology after the reapers. Also the geth possibly have fleet greater than alliance, turians and asari together. Only a small fraction of geth followed sovereign. My Shepard would follow the Quarians but instead of war there would be another Quarian massacre. In theory Quarians and Geth could live in the same system. Legion said geth do not inhabit planets, they use space stations instead. Geth have no use for Quarian homeworld, so Quarians could get it back. The problem is that Quarians hold far too great grudge for Geth to ever trust them.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Pro_Consul wrote...

Spideywebs wrote...

Good points. I think the humans are a great threat to the rest of the galaxy, especially with having people like TIM walking around. That said, I'm human, and I think the Geth are more of a threat that the quarians

And ofcourse there is conflict between organics, but that can't sometimes be settled through mediation, even though one side may be vastly superior to the other. With the Geth, if they think it is probable that they will emerge victorious, they will sieze their opportunity. At least that is my take of the Geth.

I disagree on this bit. From all accounts the Geth already had their chance and chose not to take it. And according to Legion the Geth believe that self determination is an inherent right of all species, with synthetic or organic. So as long as they are not being directly threatened the Geth would most likely mind their own business. After all, that is precisely what they have been doing since the end of their war with the Quarians (Reaper-influenced heretics notwithstanding). In this case the Geth's actions seem to be perfectly in line with their stated motivations, if we accept that the "heretics" were an aberration caused by the Reapers.

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

The quarians didn't deserve to be exterminated just because the geth didn't deserve it either. And just because the geth, don't have any specific desire to attack organics now doesn't absolve them of their crimes against the quarians in the past. Neither does the fact that the quarians started the war.

I don't believe that any real world peoples forfeit there right to existence because some of them committed  genocide, so I don't believe the same is true for the entirety of the quarians either.

When you try to kill someone who is not threatening you or anyone else, that is murder. That is a micro-scale moral point I think we both already agree upon. Well, it also applies on a macro scale: when your race, without provocation, tries to commit genocide on another race that was not threatening anyone, then your race is committing species-murder. Now, to extend, if you are trying to murder me and I kill you in self-defense, that is morally acceptable. Perhaps you didn't necessarily "deserve" to die, but it was the risk you took when you set out to commit murder and so it is no crime if you end up dead as a result of that attempt. Again, I think we can both readily agree on that. So on the macro scale, if your species is trying to exterminate mine and in the process of defending ourselves my race exterminates yours instead, that is morally acceptable. So for the duration of that conflict the one who initiated the morally unacceptable activity is "in the wrong" and forfeits all rights to complain of the other side. Of course if the conflict ends with both sides surviving, and then one side decides to resume the conflict at a later time, the side that resumed the conflict is then the one "in the wrong" and foreits all rights to complain of the other.

In this case the Geth have committed no "crimes" against the Quarians, now or in the past (heretics notwithstanding). The Quarians tried to exterminate them without provocation, so the Geth defended themselves to the extent necessary to end that conflict, i.e. by driving the Quarians into full evacuation and retreat. They could have made an effort to wipe out the Quarian species at that time, but instead chose to bring the conflict to an end by merely driving them away. That is not a "crime" in any sense that I can see; it is simply a would-be genocidal race getting off easy in that the target of their atrocious crime decided to stop at defeating them instead of wiping them out. And since the end of that conflict the only ones we have seen making any plans at resuming it are the Quarians. So at this point (the end of ME2) the Geth still have the moral high ground as the ones defending themselves, or preparing to defend themselves, against genocidal aggressors and/or enslaving conquerors (since the Quarians seem to be divided on motive).

OTOH, the Quarians have no moral leg to stand on if they resume the fight to "reclaim" their homeworld. That world ceased to be exclusively "theirs" the moment they created another sentient species on it; it became the homeworld of both the Quarians AND the Geth at that point. And the Quarians sacrificed all rights to it when they unilaterally decided to exterminate the other species for whom it was home and then subsequently lost the war they had started. The only morally acceptable way for the Quarians to regain habitation rights on that world is if they earn forgiveness and permission from the Geth....or if the Geth start a war of extermination against the Quarians and subsequently lose the planet in the process.

Also, why would it cease to be theirs? Aren't they the original people living there? And aren't the Geth just the Quarians' CREATION?

[Exile Isan]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
Did you read the EDIT part? I said it was incorrect. Also, I don't think that the Geth will do exactly what the Reapers do. I think they would just wipe out sentient organic life in general.

Apparently not, since I was probably posting that when you edited your original post.

As for the geth wiping out organic life why would they? Until the heretics sided with Sovereign the geth hadn't been seen outside the Perseus Veil the geth seem to be pretty content to be left to themselves. And Legion says that the only way organics will be affected by the future the geth want is if organics interfer. So if organics can mind their own business for once then they have nothing to worry about (but I'm not going to hold my breath or anything).

Also I think people are confusing geth platforms for being the actual geth. Geth are software, not hardware. In fact they spend very little time loaded up to platforms. And in being only software they would not expand and colonize like organic life does. In fact they seem to be content to live on space stations between stars (i.e. Heretic Station) and in space stations above planets like the one above Rannoch. The only reason there are even platforms on Rannoch is because they are cleaning up debris and toxins left over from the Morning Ware, which action Legion compares to being the caretaker of a memorial site. 

And note that Legion says "toxins", which makes me question whether the quarians could even live on the homeworld if they managed to take it back from the geth in the first place.

[Dean_the_Young]

Pro_Consul wrote...

Spideywebs wrote...

Good points. I think the humans are a great threat to the rest of the galaxy, especially with having people like TIM walking around. That said, I'm human, and I think the Geth are more of a threat that the quarians

And ofcourse there is conflict between organics, but that can't sometimes be settled through mediation, even though one side may be vastly superior to the other. With the Geth, if they think it is probable that they will emerge victorious, they will sieze their opportunity. At least that is my take of the Geth.

I disagree on this bit. From all accounts the Geth already had their chance and chose not to take it. And according to Legion the Geth believe that self determination is an inherent right of all species, with synthetic or organic. So as long as they are not being directly threatened the Geth would most likely mind their own business. After all, that is precisely what they have been doing since the end of their war with the Quarians (Reaper-influenced heretics notwithstanding). In this case the Geth's actions seem to be perfectly in line with their stated motivations, if we accept that the "heretics" were an aberration caused by the Reapers.

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

The quarians didn't deserve to be exterminated just because the geth didn't deserve it either. And just because the geth, don't have any specific desire to attack organics now doesn't absolve them of their crimes against the quarians in the past. Neither does the fact that the quarians started the war.

I don't believe that any real world peoples forfeit there right to existence because some of them committed  genocide, so I don't believe the same is true for the entirety of the quarians either.

When you try to kill someone who is not threatening you or anyone else, that is murder. That is a micro-scale moral point I think we both already agree upon. Well, it also applies on a macro scale: when your race, without provocation, tries to commit genocide on another race that was not threatening anyone, then your race is committing species-murder. Now, to extend, if you are trying to murder me and I kill you in self-defense, that is morally acceptable. Perhaps you didn't necessarily "deserve" to die, but it was the risk you took when you set out to commit murder and so it is no crime if you end up dead as a result of that attempt. Again, I think we can both readily agree on that. So on the macro scale, if your species is trying to exterminate mine and in the process of defending ourselves my race exterminates yours instead, that is morally acceptable. So for the duration of that conflict the one who initiated the morally unacceptable activity is "in the wrong" and forfeits all rights to complain of the other side. Of course if the conflict ends with both sides surviving, and then one side decides to resume the conflict at a later time, the side that resumed the conflict is then the one "in the wrong" and foreits all rights to complain of the other.

Logical fallacy of confusing a part for a whole. A race can not be held as responsible for a crime of smaller groups within that race. A race can not be held accountable unless every member of that race was a part of the crime: to do otherwise is illogical racism (in the case of organics: synthetic races, which can come to unified consensus, may be different).

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 03 février 2011 - 08:54 .

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Exile Isan wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
Did you read the EDIT part? I said it was incorrect. Also, I don't think that the Geth will do exactly what the Reapers do. I think they would just wipe out sentient organic life in general.

Apparently not, since I was probably posting that when you edited your original post.

As for the geth wiping out organic life why would they? Until the heretics sided with Sovereign the geth hadn't been seen outside the Perseus Veil the geth seem to be pretty content to be left to themselves. And Legion says that the only way organics will be affected by the future the geth want is if organics interfer. So if organics can mind their own business for once then they have nothing to worry about (but I'm not going to hold my breath or anything).

Also I think people are confusing geth platforms for being the actual geth. Geth are software, not hardware. In fact they spend very little time loaded up to platforms. And in being only software they would not expand and colonize like organic life does. In fact they seem to be content to live on space stations between stars (i.e. Heretic Station) and in space stations above planets like the one above Rannoch. The only reason there are even platforms on Rannoch is because they are cleaning up debris and toxins left over from the Morning Ware, which action Legion compares to being the caretaker of a memorial site. 

And note that Legion says "toxins", which makes me question whether the quarians could even live on the homeworld if they managed to take it back from the geth in the first place.

I don't recall anyone saying that the Quarians nuked their own planet. Also, the Geth are sentient, and with that comes individuality, and not all the Geth may stay content. Some may find it boring to build a hub for all of them to live on and stay that way forever.

[G-man_89]

Geth are not at all similar to reapers. Geth are pure machines while reapers are symbiosis of organic and non-organic material. Reapers exterminate all advanced life because that's their way to reproduce and ensure their control.



And geth aren't just creation of quarians anymore. They have their own society and they are completely independent of other races. They have reached full conscience and understanding.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Pro_Consul wrote...

Well, it also applies on a macro scale: when your race, without provocation, tries to commit genocide on another race that was not threatening anyone, then your race is committing species-murder. Now, to extend, if you are trying to murder me and I kill you in self-defense, that is morally acceptable.

It does not and it is not. Two individuals fighting is completely different than two entire people's fighting. The forces and dynamics invovled are not at all similar. Even if manslaughter was not a crime, (and it is) the decision to kill somone in self defence is often a spur of the moment self preservation instinct. The decision to wipe out an entire species is not. The Geth made a concious decsion to murder every man woman and child they encountered. The ovewrwehelming majority of whom would have been innocent civiliians, who were not guilty of genocide. There is no way that it was not a crime.

The Geth did make an effort to wipe out the Quarians, and they succeeded better than most attempts made on Earth in human history.  17 million quarians out of billions means that their casualties are in the 99% range. They did not get off "easy."

"They started it" is not morally acceptable excuse to annihilate an entire population.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 03 février 2011 - 09:12 .

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Pro_Consul wrote...

Well, it also applies on a macro scale: when your race, without provocation, tries to commit genocide on another race that was not threatening anyone, then your race is committing species-murder. Now, to extend, if you are trying to murder me and I kill you in self-defense, that is morally acceptable.

It does not and it is not. Two individuals fighting is completely different than two entire people's fighting. The forces and dynamics invovled are not at all similar. Even if manslaughter was not a crime, (and it is) the decision to kill somone in self defence is often a spur of the moment self preservation instinct. The decision to wipe out an entire species is not. The Geth made a concious decsion to murder every man woman and child they encountered. The ovewrwehelming majority of whom would have been innocent civiliians, who were not guilty of genocide. There is no way that it was not a crime.

The Geth did make an effort to wipe out the Quarians, and they succeeded better than most attempts made on Earth in human history.  17 million quarians out of billions means that their casualties are in the 99% range. They did not get off "easy."

"They started it" is not morally acceptable excuse to annihilate an entire population.

Exactly. If you got into a fight with someone over a disagreement and they punched you first, would that give you the right to grab a gun and shoot them? No, it doesn't.

[Exile Isan]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
I don't recall anyone saying that the Quarians nuked their own planet. Also, the Geth are sentient, and with that comes individuality, and not all the Geth may stay content. Some may find it boring to build a hub for all of them to live on and stay that way forever.

Legion says "We maintain mobile platforms on creator worlds to clean rubble and toxins left by the Morning War." If they are still cleaning it up 300 years later then Rannoch must be quite a mess.

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...
The Geth did make an effort to wipe out the Quarians, and they succeeded better than most attempts made on Earth in human history.  17 million quarians out of billions means that their casualties are in the 99% range. They did not get off "easy."

"They started it" is not morally acceptable excuse to annihilate an entire population.

I do not understand this logic. The quarians tried to do the exact same thing to the geth that the geth did to the quarians but it's okay that the quarians did it to the geth but not okay that the geth did it to the quarians? *is confused*

Modifié par Exile Isan, 03 février 2011 - 09:24 .

[xedgorex]

The Quarians attacked the Geth out of fear that they would become unhappy being minions. In no way shape or form did they try to talk to the Geth and come to a peaceful resolution.

I think that point right there is a pretty bad point for the Quarians.



Granted they feared that there would be some sort of widespread violent revolution, but they didn't even attempt to communicate with the Geth before deciding they were unfit to live.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Exile Isan wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
I don't recall anyone saying that the Quarians nuked their own planet. Also, the Geth are sentient, and with that comes individuality, and not all the Geth may stay content. Some may find it boring to build a hub for all of them to live on and stay that way forever.

Legion says "We maintain mobile platforms on creator worlds to clean rubble and toxins left by the Morning War." If they are still cleaning it up 300 years later then Rannoch must be quite a mess.

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...
The Geth did make an effort to wipe out the Quarians, and they succeeded better than most attempts made on Earth in human history.  17 million quarians out of billions means that their casualties are in the 99% range. They did not get off "easy."

"They started it" is not morally acceptable excuse to annihilate an entire population.

I do not understand this logic. The quarians tried to do the exact same thing to the geth that the geth did to the quarians but it's okay that the quarians did it to the geth but not okay that the geth did it to the quarians? *is confused*

Even when the Quarians started to flee, the Geth were still killing them.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

mangeo wrote...

For what it is worth i would never do it with legion...:-)

I know someone who would, unfortunately. She's into "kinky" stuff.

[DarthSliver]

 Well the fault is on the Quarians they allowed them to gain Sentient status. Its obvious that they didnt limit the Geths program and allowed it to evolve. There is so many scifi references that would prove that Quarians are at fault here and much more.Star Wars Episode 2:  

Obi-Wan: Well if droids could think, there'd be none of us here, would there?

In Star Wars Droids other know has AI or whatever you prefer their programming to be called is limited. Droids in the Star Wars Universe are made to do alot of things, from the Battle Droids that Dooku uses to the translators and engineer droids like C-3PO and R2-D2.

How does one universe maintain a community that thrives with Droids doing the labor over what the Quarians had the Geth doing. Simple Answer, the Quarians didnt make sure the Geth program was limited and allowed it to evolve. So in other words the Quarians brought their doom upon themselves and the sad thing is the Quarians think they arent at fault. Bring all their past hatreds to their current generation and without thinking of what they did wrong. They know the Geth had made some kinda evolution. Just they dont think they are at fault, they dont even think its possible the creator of the Geth overlooked something. Its obvious they see them as Machines other wise they wouldnt be trying to hack them and take control over them. So why dont they come up with the conclusion that their ancestors brought this upon future Quarian generations.

As for who id stand with, i think its clear on who. I would side with the Geth, looking at the whole picture the Quarians created sentient life than tried to destroy it. 

[PrinceLionheart]

I'd refuse to take a side. Then I'd shake my head if/when the Quarians lose because I told them the war is futile.



They want their homeworld back, I can both understand and empathize with that. Needlessly throwing yourself into a losing battle and risking the lives of your innocents is still stupid.

[Pro_Consul]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Also, why would it cease to be theirs? Aren't they the original people living there? And aren't the Geth just the Quarians' CREATION?

So by that logic if I give birth to a child it has no right to live in my house. After all, the child is just my CREATION, so whatever I decide to do with it is fine. Right?

Perhaps we will disagree on this, by in my ethos the act of creation carries responsibilities with it. If you create a machine and that machine ends up killing someone because of your poor craftmanship, is that not your fault? If you bring a new thinking being into the world, do you not have responsibilities to care for that person until they have had a chance to learn to care for themselves?

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

The Quarians attacked the Geth as
a preemptive strike.The Geth were starting to question there purpose
and why they were doing the hard labor. I think it's hinted that there
might have been war anyway. So I also think that the Quarians were
thinking in self-defense as well.

Pre-emptive attack based on ignorant assumption is most definitely NOT the same thing as self defense. Children reach a point where they start to question their purpose and why they are being required to obey adult authority. That does not justify killing them off the moment they start to exhibit signs of teenage angst and rebellion. The Quarians embarked on genocide based on the possibility that the Geth might turn out to be a threat, not on any actual evidence that this would happen.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Logical fallacy of confusing a
part for a whole. A race can not be held as responsible for a crime of
smaller groups within that race. A race can not be held accountable
unless every member of that race was a part of the crime: to do
otherwise is illogical racism (in the case of organics: synthetic
races, which can come to unified consensus, may be different).

Then by this logic the Allies in WWII were in the wrong throughout the entire course of the war. After all, there were SOME Germans who didn't support their country's war of aggression, so the Allies had no right to do anything that might cause those "innocents" harm, like, say strategic bombing or the imposition of surrender terms upon the country as a whole. Your argument is logically unsustainable in a real world environment. When people act as a collective, they must collectively accept the consequences of those actions. You don't want to be responsible when your nation commits war crimes? Either give up your citizenship and emigrate, or do something to STOP those crimes from happening and bring to justice those who are committing the crimes. There is no such thing as unanymous consensus when it comes to such matters, but there is also nothing constraining the opposition from actually OPPOSING the majority when it acts in a morally reprehensible manner.

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Even when the Quarians started to flee, the Geth were still killing them.

Where did you get this? If the Geth were intent on wiping out the Quarians, then the Quarians would likely have been extinct long ago. That this is not the case is the direct result of the fact that Geth did NOT pursue a campaign of genocide, but instead kept to themselves behind the Veil once their would-be exterminators had been decisively driven off.

[DPSSOC]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...
The Quarians are not a war like race.

 
We are clearly not meeting the same Quarians.  The Quarians I'm meeting are under marshall law being governed by unelected representatives of their military.  They have decided to remain homeless wanderers until they can go home and crush their enemy.

Sure they're not on the same level as the Krogan or even the Turians, but you don't have to be overly war like to want revenge.

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...
They hate the Geth because they exterminated their people and drove them into exile. Any race should hate the geth for doing that to them. There is no evidence that the Quarians hate the rest of the Citadel races with any sort of passion.

 
Could be wrong but I seem to recall a lot of resentment for the Council from Tali.  All they've known for 300 years is hatred and the pursuit of their enemy's destruction, their circumstances don't allow for cultural growth like art, music, philosophy, etc.  It's going to take a long time to get them out of that thinking and with the Geth gone they're going to look for a new enemy, some other species that wronged them.

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...
It doesn't really matter how many times they went to war. Especially since the Morning War, the Krogan Rebellions adn the Rachni Wars, were all started by someone else.

 
It does matter because it gives a glimpse into their mentality.  It shows a distinct lack of aggression, and a simple desire to be left alone.

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...
The difference is they wiped out every quarian man woman and child, with the Rachni there weren't any alternatives because the entre race was intoctrinated. The Geth certtainly did have them.

In hindsight certainly, but the Geth didn't have that advantage.  The Quarians wanted them wiped out, so it was a simple matter of us or them.  As long as the Quarians survived they would be a threat to the Geth.  Now maybe in 300 years they've realized that they did have other options but in the moment they only had the one.  Think of it like a mugger on the street; most people when faced with a mugger will see two options give them what they want or suffer injury and possibly death.  The prospect of reasoning, disarming, attacking, running, etc. is rarely considered.

[Exile Isan]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
Even when the Quarians started to flee, the Geth were still killing them.

Can I get a quote for this? Either from the Codex (which isn't really a reliable source in some respects) or dialog.

And even if it is true do you really believe that the quarians wouldn't have done the same to the geth if it had been the geth who tried to flee? Because I have a hard time believing that they wouldn't.

[xlavaina]

I personally think the whole topic is moot, as it is implied by Legion that there will be peace. Of course, there is always Shepard's choice, but I doubt there will be an all out war.