33 réponses à ce sujet

[blazin130791]

After getting back into RPGs again recently, once again I find myself comparing them too BG and all of them seem to fall short in some respect. I can't quite put my finger on what makes BG so special but it is still my favourite RPG series that I've came across.

What makes BG special for you? What does it give that newer games don't and keeps you coming back?

[Bhryaen]

blazin130791 wrote...
What makes BG special for you? What does it give that newer games don't and keeps you coming back?

This has been answered in part by many in numerous threads, but I'll piece together my own:

1. The humor. Much of the often cheeky humor could be seen as detracting from game immersion, and it risks doing so given how goofy many of the characters are who you meet, but because it's very good humor and not cynical or lame, so it has the opposite effect for me and entices me to keep looking for and anticipate more encounters.
2. The sense of a genuine creative effort. Most modern games are engineered full of gimmicks, clearly just to get you to buy it. BG comes across in entirety- whether truly so or no- as a flourish of imaginitive construction with as many little twists or characters as they could come up with, and if you don't like it and thus don't buy it, it simply wasn't for you. They don't seem to have bent their effort to marketing. There are plenty of encounters that give no XP, no rewards, no quest, no gold... but are funny and worth doing. The quotation I'm presently using for my signature here is from such an encounter, and I always do it. Anyway that's not the feel I get when playing BG. Very few companies seem to take such a risk nowadays, alwaysinstead requiring the guarantee of return and thus going with what they "think gamers want." The BG crew seems to have done what they wanted, and simply knew it was good.
3. There is a lot of fighting... but you don't get the same feeling of fight-spamming that most games have. In 180 degree fashion Dungeon Siege 1 & 2 are just long corridors of hack and slash, kill kill kill, or Oblivion is just a run through the forest to the next kill, kill, kill. I've never played the apparently popular Dragon Age, but I've seen it on "Let's Play" YouTube shorts, and it appears more of a child of Guild Wars (engine) + Dungeon Siege (environment) than of BG as is claimed- the same kill, kill, kill with some movie-like cutscenes interspersed. Despite how much you do indeed end up killing in BG, every fight seems to have meant something or have been part of its own particular story- i.e., defeating the ogres of the coast or the xvarts of the caves type of thing. Maybe wolves do appear annoyingly much, but otherwise the feel is a balance, as if the game designers did play it themselves and knew when enough was enough. Storylines and quest purposes are interwoven into the entirety to knit everything together, albeit nebulously, and predominate the gameplay. Moreover most of the major foes actually have names rather than, say, human or elf mercenery, drow commander. It adds a lot of character.
4. The nonlinear aspects. Of course it is a linear game: there are chapters with specific goals that must be achieved in succession. But there are soooo many ways to get there, soooo many things to see or miss in each playing. You can complete the main storyline with only a portion of the side areas or see every corner of the side areas. And these "side" areas- even in the city- are perhaps 60-80% of the total game content. No game that I've played starts out with an attempt on your life and then being cast into the wild with only minor hints along the way as to what's going on. You truly just muddle through the discoveries, one by one. NWN makes the main plot fairly obvious by Chap 2.
5. No game plays exactly like the last. The game doesn't exactly randomize everything, but every time you head out it's a different path. There is an immense variation of area travel sequences in terms of direction, the kinds of risk you take, the options before you, which encounters to engage or leave until later. So the unraveling of the story is always new.
6. The combat doesn't pander. Modern games tend to be hesitant to hurt and kill you. This isn't necessarily a bad sign, but I'm not looking for a game that feels like Mommy is holding my hand through it, making sure everything goes ok and I don't feel my ego bruised. For immersion I want to truly worry and not know how things will go. Certain areas and foes still scare me, and I sometimes postpone the encounters not because I need to but because I'm just feeling so trepidatious.
7. The main storyline is very good and thoroughly thought-out. It merges with actual changes in DnD at that time (the Time of Troubles) as well, so it comes across as part of an ongoing campaign. There are a number of fun twists in what happens to you and what you must do in your investigations, things that turn previous situations on their heads, and you truly need to read- ouch!- to follow along- at least the first one or two times. I still read some of it just because it's more fun that way and done well.
8. The dialogue. "*flatulence* Woh-ho, that was a stinker!" This is actually the veritable battlecry of one rather dangerous foe (under some circumstances)... too funny. Due to spoiler risks I won't list others, but there is no sense of second-rate actors who normally do soap commercials or soap operas but decided to make a few bucks saying, "We shall defend this glorious land!" or "You are the chosen one!" or such. Oblivion even got Captain Picard and Boromir to sound dopey! The lines and the voices in general are high quality and often edged with humor, and the NPC dialogue is extensive, though I haven't explored this myself much at all after my first game. Even the simplest of merceneries will often have memorable dialogue before fighting ensues. Your chief opponent has a great voice as do a number of the NPCs you meet, and BG1's cutscene narrator is better even than BG2's (which in turn is much better than NWN's).
9. The artwork. Despite the crippling inability to pan your vision around or zoom in and such, the areas are full of great scenery with plenty of detail. NWN pretty much dropped all that to make areas that players can manipulate more easily both as a PC in the game trying to scope the surroundings and also as modbuilders with a game-housed toolset, so a trade-off was produced. The trade-off in BG is a great deal of better artwork that you won't really see anywhere else. I recently tried Planescape: Torment again which has a similar game engine as BG, but, well, BG simply has the best artwork of its game format.
10. The names. Maybe this is a minor point, but it's so noticeable to me how aesthetically strong the names are in BG. Just compare the primary names of most other games. Maybe it's just me, but I think it's worth noting. Essentially game names are anything that isn't a normal recognizable name (with a few exceptions in BG and elsewhere), so you can invent anything: Kookaboggle, Loosh, Blotter, whatever. The only way I can defer to a reference other than my own sense of linguistics is the much-acclaimed naming of Tolkein's novels based on actual language sources, but I'm not saying good names necessarily use existing real world linguistic tendencies. It's just that most games use names that are underwhelming, like Arthabar [EDIT: Actually that's not a bad name, come to think of it... I'd have to play a different game for a moment to get a real example]- that just sounds contrived rather than something that would've been produced naturally due to sounding good or easy pronunciation by in-game locals, etc. No actual examples are coming to mind, alas, except maybe Aribeth which you may as well just shorten to Beth. Gorion is a major figure in BG, but the name works very well, as does Imoen.

Modifié par Bhryaen, 04 février 2011 - 04:24 .

[Son of Imoen]

A very eloquent post, Bhryan. I miss only one thing in it, which is blatantly obvious if you browse the fora: people playing Baldur's Gate are often enthralled by the NPC's. Wether they like or very much dislike a given NPC, how good their skills are or how bad, how the communicate with each other. Only in BG2 did Bioware really flesh out the NPC's, but to my opinion people playing BG1 should, after knowing what the vanilla game is like, install Tutu (or BGT) and experience the BG1 NPC Project. Alora, Coran, Xan, to name a few of my favourites - avoiding to name the most popular ones Imoen, Minsc and Viconia deliberately to point out every NPC has it's merites - are NPC's made in such a way they make a lasting impression and I want to play them again and again.



Combined with the choices you can make for class, kit etc. for your main character, what NPC's you can pick up make for a different experience every time. I didn't have much experience with Dragon Age Origins yet, I am only just exploring the Korcari Wilds, but the NPC's in that game feel more like muscle added to the party just to let you survive, than personalities on there own. In BG1 (with NPC Project) and BG2 they are like real persons, not just bits and bytes in a computer program. So many people get enthused by the BG2-characters, it inspires them to creat characters of their own and thus characters like the very endearing Finch for BG 1 or the entertaining Keto for BG 2 are made, giving the game even more replayability.



For me, the game has such replayability, that in the last year I started 13 Baldur's Gate campaigns, 9 in BG 1 and 4 in BG 2, each with their own unique feel because of the different PC's, NPC's and mods I set the parties up with, so much I had to decide to put 8 of them 'on hold' and play only 5 of them (in parallel, each in their own folder), until I got time to finish the other ones as well.



Big con: Baldur's Gate is a dangerous game, it's addictive and a great way to forget about troubles in the real world for a while (it's easier to save the SwordCoast than to restore democracy in Egypt or some sort of normal life in Afghanistan or Iraq).

[Bhryaen]

Son of Imoen wrote...
I miss only one thing in it, which is blatantly obvious if you browse the fora: people playing Baldur's Gate are often enthralled by the NPC's.

Yes, I didn't really explore that well enough in my #8 and recognized that after I rushed out the door to get to work... So:

11. NPC development. I've mostly soloed since my first run through BG, but the NPCs I recruited in my first run left enough of an impression that I knew there was a whole dimension to the game I was missing out on and vowed one day to play with a party again, not being such an XP hound. You're right about them having their own personalities. Not only does this come out in dialogue that emerges between your char and the NPCs or between each other- as well as in the voices (Minsc's lines are funny to read and hear)- but also in their behavior. I remember Garrick constantly running for the hills any time a battle started to get tricky. You can't always control them, so you have to be like a real leader, just working with the material you have in each situation- imperfect people who have strengths and weaknesses rather than superheroes who simply haven't gotten their Uberblast or Ubersmash skill yet.
     Funny in that first game I never picked up the most popular NPC Minsc for whatever reason, instead having Imoen (not dual-classed (since I was clueless on that) and later changed for Safana), Khalid, Jaheira, Ajantis, Garrick (later changed for Eldoth), and Kivan. [EDIT: Oh, yeah, and Coran too. Not sure how he fit in...] With as many NPCs as there are- and I experimented enough to know Tiax rivals Minsc for hillariousness- I knew I was missing a lot of potential dialogue. Plus there is the fact that you can recruit so many NPCs. Tomi Undergallows is a great NPC, but you have to dig to get his dialogue, you can't even access his inventory until HotU (as I recall) and you only get one NPC at a time in NWN. What other games have as many recruitable NPCs as BG with so much interplay between them? As I mentioned in #8 though, I'm not one to extol this virtue of BG as it is barely explored ground for me...

[EDIT: Another NPC note. I recently picked up BG again and got Imoen, very surprised at how much she had to talk about in the very first area. I was tempted to just click through the dialogue, and there are plenty of options to just tell her to shut her gob, but I kept reading and started actually liking the whiny companion. Soon coming across a pack of SCS-interjected dread wolves- clearly going to kill at least one of us- so I used Imoen as a sacrificial lamb so I could run away... It seemed to work, but... I don't remember ever feeling so bad before about sacrificing an NPC in a game before. How many times has Tomi died only to give his humorous not-quite-dead speech back at the Temple?... Imoen's sacrifice was in vain, of course, because SCS made the wolves come chase me down next to do the same... Served me right, I suppose... My first game I just kept reloading until all NPCs survived.]

Modifié par Bhryaen, 05 février 2011 - 06:00 .

[Humanoid_Taifun]

IMO the NPCs by themselves aren't that special anymore. I really like Garrus and Tali and the other teammates of ME2. They have a lot of personality. But they are not as involved anymore in the story. When you make certain choices in BG2, your teammates will oppose you, or even each other. Or Minsc comes up to tell you your doing good deeds is a delight for hamsters and rangers everywhere.

But that's still not what makes the game so memorable. I think they just hit the exact right atmosphere. The georgeous scenery plus interesting characters plus complex and challenging combat plus an engaging story, none of these by themselves the best possible (or even in existence), make this game is a masterpiece.

[HolyAvenger]

Plus it was goddamn huge. A single stronghold quest in BG2 is the size of a treaty quest in DAO. And there's so many of them....

[Sparky The Barbarian]

BG was my first love and I'll never forget her.

[Big Mabels Diet-Plan]

Latest news on Baldur's Gate: Still owns

Modifié par TripedWire, 04 février 2011 - 02:08 .

[Morbidest]

Just a few add-ons to what Bhryaen said:

Remember the church graveyard in Nashkill? A lot of the devs. have their tombstones there, with comments along the order of "this game was the death of me". The many levels of interlocking detail in the BGs spoils you for later games.

Particularly in BG2 the earlier city fights against specific types of monsters are great training for the later more difficult fights out in the wild. This type of careful, nuturing crafting of the game flow seems to have disappeared in the competition for spectacular 3-D effects and let story line and plot development be damned.

Modifié par Morbidest, 05 février 2011 - 06:19 .

[Humanoid_Taifun]

Morbidest wrote...
Particularly in BG2 the earlier city fights against specific types of monsters are great training for the later more difficult fights out in the wild. This type of careful, nuturing crafting of the game flow seems to have disappeared in the competition for spectacular 3-D effects and let story line and plot development be damned.

Considering BG1 starts with you a single digit HP character and surrounded by enemies and even BG2 allowing you to easily accept and start quests way above your paygrade right from the start, I'm not convinced I'd agree with that.

One thing that makes BG easier than games like Mass Effect is your ability to run away and return stronger is a lot better. Very rarely will you be forced to play through an entire dungeon/game segment without the option to retreat.
When you notice during the beginning of the temple quests "ARGH WHAT ARE THOSE THINGS?! THEY DISPEL ALL MY SPELLS, I CANT DO ANYTHING; THEY ARE KILLING ME LIKE NOBODY'S BUSINESS!!!" then you just turn around and come back when you know how to handle these creatures (unless you've already gone through the first batch and are now stuck on the second, which is already past the point of no return).

[HoonDing]

Personally I find Icewind Dale to be more difficult than Baldur's Gate. Icewind Dale immediately throws the party into a dungeon riddled with traps and hordes of powerful undead. Not to mention, having to fight a marilith boss at level 7-8 in the next dungeon.

Unlike Baldur's Gate, there's no option to explore the wilderness a bit to level up before tackling the story-dungeons.

Modifié par virumor, 06 février 2011 - 02:33 .

[Seagloom]

Nice write up, Bhryaen. My reasons differ from yours and others here in areas, but are similar enough I will spare you all my own review. Suffice it to say the "Baldur's Gate" games were among the best ever made. I have not seen their like since. I suspect we never will.



I agree with virumor on "Icewind Dale" too. We were forced into difficult situations early on. Encounter design was handled better, as well. Then there was the spell list and force cast thing. Most of BG2's cheesy spells were missing or functioned differently. Enemy mages happily cast their spells even if your warriors were cutting the life out of them with nonstop criticals. I still found the Baldur's Gate games more fun to play, however.



A question, Bhryaen: were you by any chance a DM in an old NWN server abbreviated as DH? I knew a Bhryaen from there once. You remind me of him.

[Bhryaen]

Seagloom wrote...
A question, Bhryaen: were you by any chance a DM in an old NWN server abbreviated as DH? I knew a Bhryaen from there once. You remind me of him.

Someone remembers! I think of those all-too-brief Dale Hollow/ Dusk Haven days periodically. You weren't Hierophant, were you? Or someone else I fell asleep on? hehe

I was thinking of this question [i.e., what makes BG special] further before I returned to this post just now. When BG first came out it was relatively original as a computer game. It was is if there was a turn from PnP to computer-based DnD. I had been away from DnD a long time before that, but was playing (as a lousy player) in an international online DnD game when I first heard of BG (before TotSC). I think in part the developers of BG were like I was- transitioning from actual DnD to a computer game, and they brought all that real life play to the encounters they designed. From then on computer games were based on computer games, always trying to one-up the last one. DA is just the latest attempt to say they're carrying on BG's "soul," but in fact it started with non-computer DnD with raw imagination, so the new games will always lack that creativity-first approach. Clearly graphics, movie-like direction, and general bells and whistles were less of a priority in BG than the ideas and humor- and not only because they simply weren't particularly advanced back then- reflecting a different set of expectations from a play environment. The immersion sense from then on has been based on graphics manipulation with storyline more of a background element.

Maybe I'm only half-right, but that's part of the dynamic.

Modifié par Bhryaen, 08 février 2011 - 04:10 .

[Nazo]

This may sound ridiculous, but when I was first wandering around Candlekeep, in awe of the beautiful scenery and everything, and then it started raining. I was so impressed. For me RPGs had been games like Wizardry, with wireframe cubic dungeons and little inanimate monster pictures that popped up and then you threw numbers at them. The rain hooked me.

[Seagloom]

Bhryaen wrote...

Someone remembers! I think of those all-too-brief Dale Hollow/ Dusk Haven days periodically. You weren't Hierophant, were you? Or someone else I fell asleep on? hehe

I see you remember too. If there is such a thing as fate, it has brought out paths to cross once more. Yes, I was Hierophant. Dusk Haven seems like a lifetime ago. I was so different then. Although I remain the total D&D geek I was. I still fondly recall those times with my foolhardy and aloof half-elf bard gal; and stoic halfling ranger guy. Those experiences are big part of the reason I still talk up NWN's online component to this day. Maybe you fell asleep once or twice when it ran late, but at least your DMing left a positive impression! :happy:

Modifié par Seagloom, 08 février 2011 - 12:00 .

[Bhryaen]

Seagloom wrote...
I see you remember too. If there is such a thing as fate, it has brought out paths to cross once more.

Wow, "what archery!" (from "Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf?" to give due credit) I guessed right first time. I think it's your characteristic aloofness and measured replies that clued me in. Actually I thought I'd never "meet" you again, and in reality I'm not sure we ever spoke once outside the game itself, but you were definitely the player who I did the extra research and item crafting for due to your own roleplaying. The conversations between a mage and his familiar had me stalking you just to hear it. (I marveled to another DM, and he merely sicced a monster on you...) I have a faulty memory but I recall a bard of Sune who I tried to make a magical playable harp for (the OnUse script for which- among other things- one of the main DMs wouldn't enter into their server for me)- the Sune Token. That same DM didn't like me using his special elemental on you either by the way. hehehe It's great seeing you still "out there" somewhere.

Not to wander too far from the actual thread course, online NWN is the closest thing I've found to the creativity behind BG: DnD in a computer game. But NWN servers were never- even in their heydey- a guarantee of that creativity. The main NWN campaign is flat by comparison. BG is always such a guarantee, and much of it is how much imagination it tends to elicit from you rather than to attempt to flourish before you. It involves you, yes, like the rain. I'm at a disadvantage though because I'm mostly speaking of BG1 and the development of the main storyline into successive stages- a truly epic-style campaign. Due to the SCSII Readme I'm finding recollections of later-game BG2 to be a lot more combat-intensive with some not-so-interesting tactical challenges, but again I'm not so experienced with BG2 to know well.

[Seagloom]

It is interesting to get a bit of behind the scenes insight on that. I had no idea another DM was miffed over your using the storm... demon? I forget what it was called. It had a water elemental model. The mage was my first character there. He was an abjurer I used to gauge the server early on. Since I had trouble getting into role-play with other players, I took to role-playing him and his familiar. Those were fun times. Lonely but fun times.



I had more of a blast playing Badiera. Yes, she was a Sunite bard. Most of my memories were tied into playing her. That time you fell asleep she was chatting with someone in the dwarven mining town in the mountains. The name escapes me. I also remember her meeting that witch and getting zapped by harm for having a smart mouth. It was minor stuff like that, mostly, that stuck with me. Another favorite moment was playing Bristol (halfling ranger). He was getting his butt handed to him when suddenly a pack of wolves came out of nowhere to back him up. That was far and away my favorite in-battle DM participation ever.



I played NWN for many years after you moved on. I actually became a DM on Dusk Haven for a brief period, but it was on its last legs and was basically dead when I returned after a months long break. Sadly I have to agree NWN online play comes nowhere near guaranteeing anything. I have met only a handful of truly inventing and dedicated players and fewer DMs. If I met more, my experiences in DH would not stand out so much.



As an aside, Badiera eventually fell in battle at just shy of sixty years. The idea of graying hair and a few wrinkles were no longer a horror to her. All that vanity faded away when she got married, and then lost her husband a few years later. That actually occurred on the server. The loss made her a hardcore believer in the church and she became a gallant. Basically a chaotic good equivalent of a paladin. I eventually retired her from server play, but wrote her an ending where she made it back to Toril and was poisoned by yuan-ti and dark naga while searching the Battle of the Bones for another relic. Her band made it out mostly intact, but the poison overcame her on the journey home. This is heading far off topic and probably should have been a PM conversation. Ah well, too late now!



I agree Baldur's Gate is a safer bet than NWN. Its only flaw is it can only be experienced to its fullest wonder that first time through. Despite that, the game has a knack for luring me in with its varied musical score and exploration which was sadly absent in BG2. I did enjoy BG2 immensely as a continuation of Charname's adventures, and getting to know so many different NPCs, but there were things the original handled better.

[Bhryaen]

Seagloom wrote...
Those were fun times. Lonely but fun times.

So true of much of my experience given that most online NWN players were powergamers and PvP specialists who I refused to travel with. Even on the new, more hardcore roleplay server I discovered a couple yrs later- Treegum- I usually just found myself traveling alone using voicesets and making my solliloquies for my own private roleplay. With the depopulation of NWN's online "community" this becomes only more the case. This is why BG still makes sense despite lacking a viable multiplayer environment to explore. It tends to be better most of the time. The dialogue-based NPCs there never break character constantly or send gratuitous party requests or speak like "u no wat," and the DM-like designers have thrown in a lot of fun extras to their encounters rather than just lurking about as "roleplay police."

Another favorite moment was playing Bristol (halfling ranger). He was getting his butt handed to him when suddenly a pack of wolves came out of nowhere to back him up. That was far and away my favorite in-battle DM participation ever.

Thanks for reminding me of this. Those experiences have been slowly coming back to me today... Very fun times... One thing I did cracked up hattper but also had myself in stitches. Remember the female duergar clerics across the northern ravine with their deadly spells... that would run out... and leave them just standing at the cliff edge menacingly without the slightest capacity to injure the players any longer? Well, hattper was picking them off leisurely (again), so I possessed one and made her howl insults like, "Oh, now you're gonna get it!" and  "Oooh, you're not getting away with that!" and "Just try that again!" "Miss, miss, miss- aw, damn..." while they slowly died from her arrows. When the last was almost dead I created a few more- fully stocked with their death and destruction spells- on hattper's side of the ravine, slowly walking up to her position. "About time you girls showed up! Get 'er!!" Watch Hattper Run (while Blade Barriers cranked out behind her)!

Yeah... I miss BG but I miss some of the NWN online experiences too...

I have met only a handful of truly inventing and dedicated players and fewer DMs. If I met more, my experiences in DH would not stand out so much.

You were definitely the most interesting player I encountered, but I happened on other good ones like a guy who was hillarious and near genius with his use of the NWN voicesets. His use of Daelan's was a constant fight to keep focused through chuckles on fights he'd get us into. His Daelan was like a living Minsc! That's one of the reasons why I wish I could get the NWN voicesets brought to BG. The BG voices are great too but they're not particularly useful as a CHARNAME voice ("Does the mere mention of Drizzt attract your ilk!?") and there are soooo many good NWN voices.

[EDIT: Forgot quotes]

I agree Baldur's Gate is a safer bet than NWN. Its only flaw is it can only be experienced to its fullest wonder that first time through.

Well, my second through BG2 will be very close to the first. I've been avoiding the BG2 forum section to keep it that way. So all you need is a decade between each play! hehehe

... varied musical score and exploration...

I've long been unable to place why BG's music still has never been surpassed by any other game's for me. I don't know if it's like SparkytheBarbarian's sentiment for me or if there is something delineable to distinguish and sufficiently articulate about it. I'm not that much a music expert, but I know what I like...

Modifié par Bhryaen, 09 février 2011 - 01:55 .

[DamnThoseDisplayNames]

Baldur's Gate saga is just so good I sometimes want to have lobotomy just to forget everything about it and play it afresh.

[Kevin Lynch]

DamnThoseDisplayNames wrote...

Baldur's Gate saga is just so good I sometimes want to have lobotomy just to forget everything about it and play it afresh.

You don't want to have a lobotomy. It won't do anything to your memory but may affect your enjoyment of the game a bit, especially if you are obsessive-compulsive about it.

But yeah, there's nothing like the first time. Except for the second time, 'cause it's like the first only after.

[Lyssistr]

I heavily favor BG II over BG I, still what's present in these series and isnt present in many modern games can be summed up in 2 words, density & variety.

- Quest density
- NPC density
- monster variety (mainly BG II)
- environment variety (mainly BG II)
- spell variery (BG II)

DAO was really close and I have to admit I prefer it a tiny bit because, even though it is weaker than BG II in most points, having so goof gfx, VO and cutscenes compensates for that. If 10 years of tech were not a parameter in this equation, it would be BGII hadns down, but these 10 yrs do have an impact.

Modifié par Lyssistr, 10 février 2011 - 02:08 .

[element eater]

I cant think of any fantasy RPG that is even in the same league as BG. I still replay the series 10 years since its release I cant think of many other games that make me wanna do that.

Truly the bench mark for all RPG's if any company can even come close to it they deserve a medal

[Lyssistr]

element eater wrote...

I cant think of any fantasy RPG that is even in the same league as BG. I still replay the series 10 years since its release I cant think of many other games that make me wanna do that.
Truly the bench mark for all RPG's if any company can even come close to it they deserve a medal

This is a fair point and tbh, I doubt I'll be playing DA:O in 2021, if I'm still around, but I still may give BG II another go. However, now I find DA:O more playable. When BG I & BG II remake projects are complete I think they'll be the best RPGs to play for quite a few years to come.

All this coming from the perspective of a graphics****

[The Cow King]

 What I really love about BG1

- NPCs, even though they don't have the same kind of dialogue as in BG2, their personalities more than make up for it. Shar-Teel, Garrick, Xan, Faldorn, Tiax, Ajantis... the list goes on. You also have way more choice in regards to building your party in BG1 than BG2, especially for evil parties.

- Ambience. The sounds, music, areas... everything. BG1 has a very distinct feel that no game has been able to replicate. Even from the beginning it feels like this adventure game but there is this dark foreboding feeling to it, the iron shortage, war with amn, your background etc... you feel like something is "wrong" from the start, you just can't put your finger to it, until the story kicks in.

[wise grimwald]

I agree with kevin.

No lobotomy needed.

Just the need to forget.

I forget which river does that.

It would be nice to do that except that you'd forget things you want to remember.

Wife kids and the like.

What we need is selective memory wipe.

We don't know how to do that yet.