1283 réponses à ce sujet

[Anarya]

Sharn01 wrote...

Anarya wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Anarya wrote...
But you have Gaider telling you exactly that (plus Connor and other things in-game) So I don't see why this is even in question.

DG doesn't tell you that.  Not once does he actually tell you that in WoG mode.  He implies it certainly but never says it.  Anyttime he does mention it, it's always speaking with the "Chantry justification" or "Chantry PoV" voice or as opinion, never as WoG.

-Polaris

Well I guess I don't need him to put blinking lights around it and say "hey everyone: mages can turn into abominations at any time" to take it as authoritative but even if you discount what is said on the board by writers you've seen and heard abominations in your game universe so I still don't see how this is in question.

He did say a mage can become an abomination at any time, I can also win the lottery at any time, I dont even need to buy a ticket, I could find it on the ground, the difference is the mage actually can resist the demon trying to take possession of him, and is very unlikely to be attacked by one in the first place, there is nothing I can do to increase my odds of winning the lottery in any signifigant way. 

Yes, people are afraid of mages, people are more likely to have their car get a flat tire in a storm and get struck by lightning when they exit their car to change the tire then they are to win the powerball lottery, that doesnt stop people from buying tickets.  People will be afraid of abominations no matter how infrequent they are.

I know there are a lot of abominations in Origins, I dont think that should be taken as normal, one there was a lot going on at the time that increased the chance of them taking place,  and two, it was a game introducing us to a new game world, not only did the writers want the player to realize the threat of abominations was real, but it was a brain dead easy way to introduce an enemy, an enemy that was no where near the threat it was described to be in the lore of the game.

Even discounting the abomination issue, governments generally don't let the populace have free access to guns and explosives, WMDs, etc. It's unfortunate for the mage that he IS the WMD, but what can you do? We see different solutions to the problem among the different societies of Thedas. None of them is perfect because again, it's meant to be a complicated issue.

[PsychoBlonde]

tmp7704 wrote...

PsychoBlonde wrote...

Erm, the abilities templars have just from training beg to differ. 

Templar abilities focus on resisting and dispelling the magic.

So do a great many spells.    

But you know, the point is that mages can do these things without visit to hardware store. And that's what sets them apart.

Yeah, we need to lock up hardware stores IMMEDIATELY.

[IanPolaris]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Then you might want to use a little courtesy and a little less snark.

And you could do with a little less "horrifying" and calling people bigots for their interpretation of the implications of fictional lore.

I haven't used the word "bigot" once, nor have I called people such.  It was DG who unfortunately (IMHO) went over the line and accused people of using modern ethics in a very denigrating way IMHO.

IanPolaris wrote...

These days very much matters because DG was directly comparing how we'd deal with mages today as a justification for how the Chantry was doing so.  This point has been covered before and as such the moral issue very much applies.

Do I think we'd be treating them precisely the same way the Chantry and Templars do?  Not necessarily and certainly not at first.  Do I think they'd be regulated in some way?  You'd be naive not to think so.  Doesn't mean there wouldn't be debate.  But I am pretty sure which side would lose.  And if you use this paragraph to assume which side I'd be on, I will internet slap you. 

False dichotomy AGAIN.  No one questions the need to regulate mages and or magic.

IanPolaris wrote...

As for the mental health issue, you were the one that used the analogy and it happens to be a decent one.  I simply shot it full of holes.

You "shot it full of holes" in the sense that you found the things it was never meant to cover.  The example is meant to convey the idea of pre-emptive imprisonment for pre-existing, involuntary conditions.  The difference, and this is a huge part of the issue at hand, is potent extra-normal ability, something the mentally disturbed do not possess.  To say that this is "shot full of holes" is nonsense.

You chose the analogy not me as a reason why mages would be imprisoned.  Don't blame me for pointing out that the very analogy you want to cite doesn't really support your position.

IanPolaris wrote...

  You need to deal with that and deal with the fact that the DA universe has all sorts of modern ethics and conceits built into it (such as gender egalitarianism to name one).

And the ones it does I'll accept as being part of that world.  On the subject of mages and the Chantry, modern ethics have not a thing to do with it.

Another has already answered this, but the entire quesiton is very much a modern ethical issue of freedom vs security.  IRL Middle-Ages Europe a mage would have a summary "trial" and burned at the stake (and Islamic countries were no better given that the Koran explicitly calls 'sorcery' a mortal sin).

-Polaris

[Ziggeh]

AlexXIV wrote...

If you don't have faith in anyone you will have to kill everyone.

I honestly have no faith in anyone. Is it spree time already? My how time flies.

Seriously though, antagonism is pretty much built into what mages are. There isn't a way to handle it that's going to be clean. Which is the point.

[IanPolaris]

Anarya wrote...

Even discounting the abomination issue, governments generally don't let the populace have free access to guns and explosives, WMDs, etc. It's unfortunate for the mage that he IS the WMD, but what can you do? We see different solutions to the problem among the different societies of Thedas. None of them is perfect because again, it's meant to be a complicated issue.

I can go to the hardware store and do a quick read (and it wouldn't even be that exstensive a read) of the Anarchists Cookbook (which you can find online), and I can destroy several city blocks.   For that matter, blowing up a crowed gynasium (and being virtually undetectable until you do) is childsplay.   All you need is Diesel Fuel and Industrial Fertilizer and no regard for human life including your own.

-Polaris

Edit:  Actually if you live on a farm and/or have knowledge of even basic organic chemistry, you don't even need to go to a hardware store.  The stuff lying around is good enough to make high explosives.  Yes you can make plastic explosives in your kitchen sink.

Modifié par IanPolaris, 03 février 2011 - 11:49 .

[upsettingshorts]

IanPolaris wrote...

I haven't used the word "bigot" once, nor have I called people such. 

Link.

IanPolaris wrote...

No one questions the need to regulate mages and or magic.

We're also not talking about modern reactions to mages either.  But you do seem to keep bringing that up too, if occasionally only by implication.

IanPolaris wrote...

You chose the analogy not me as a reason why mages would be imprisoned.  Don't blame me for pointing out that the very analogy you want to cite doesn't really support your position.

It supports it in precisely the way I meant for it to, and nothing more.  It doesn't support it in the way you say it doesn't and was never meant to.  I'm glad we're getting somewhere.

IanPolaris wrote...

Another has already answered this

And I already answered him.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 03 février 2011 - 11:50 .

[LobselVith8]

tmp7704 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Actually it's a lot faster than you are trying to make out.  The regular meetings aren't the only contact that Dalish clans have with each other, and Dalish clans can and do sent important messenges via messenger to each other.

If a clan gets wiped out they're in no position to send nor receive these regular messages. It's rather hard to draw any conclusions from such event -- it's possible the clan has moved elsewhere or it's otherwise too preoccupied to keep in touch. In DAO case the news spread fairly quick before the werewolves and/or warden were able to provide explanation what happened to the public. But i wouldn't expect abominations to be equally informative.

There are multiple Chasind tribes and Dalish clans, and if the issue about them having no templar supervision hindered their societies or culled entire tribes, wouldn't they be dramatically reduced in number? There's a semi-settlement on the border of Rivain and the only reason that the Chasind aren't a threat is because they aren't as unified (nor as antagonist) as they once were. Clearly, we see Rivain, the Chasind, and the Dalish accept mages among them without the negative reprecussions that we encounter in the Andrastian societies.

tmp7704 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

That being so, and given the small size of each invidiual tribe, we should see a huge impact from random abominations if the Chantry were correct and we do not.

How many tribes do we get to actually see at all in the game? Two, and one of them is in the process of being wiped out by something their own keeper created in a fit of rage. Pretty small sample to draw any conclusions from.

Except we do know that they have no issues with mages. While the Chantry has said that the threat of mages must be thrown into prisons (although the codex states it was because of a nonviolent protest), the Dalish have mages as leaders (Zathrian and Lanaya) and healers (Aenirin). We even know that the Dalish Warden was also healed by the Keeper and is aided by a mage, the Keeper's First - Merrill. Doesn't the contrasting views on how they handle mages - including allowing mages to govern them in the case of the Dalish - indicate a dramatically different approach than the Chantry assumes?

tmp7704 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Again, an abomination social footprint should be blindingly obvious given the small size of individual tribes, and it's just not there.

How many tribes of Chasind did you encounter and conversed with in the game to even begin to think you can make such statement? Again, this is turning lack of knowledge into presumption there's nothing to be known.

I think Ian's reference is to how they have mages among the tribes and how they aren't isolated or segregated from the rest of Chasind society.

[AlexXIV]

Ziggeh wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

If you don't have faith in anyone you will have to kill everyone.

I honestly have no faith in anyone. Is it spree time already? My how time flies.

Seriously though, antagonism is pretty much built into what mages are. There isn't a way to handle it that's going to be clean. Which is the point.

Well I would rather have one organisation handle it that does not have territorital or monetary agendas than multiple kingdoms where you never know what tyrant will be next on the throne.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 03 février 2011 - 11:53 .

[PsychoBlonde]

Anarya wrote...

Even discounting the abomination issue, governments generally don't let the populace have free access to guns and explosives, WMDs, etc. It's unfortunate for the mage that he IS the WMD, but what can you do? We see different solutions to the problem among the different societies of Thedas. None of them is perfect because again, it's meant to be a complicated issue.

I'd argue against mages being WMD, and SOME governments REQUIRE people to keep a gun IN THE HOUSE and be TRAINED IN ITS USE.  (They have shockingly low rates of violent crime and accidental death due to guns, too.)

I mean, WMD?  A single mage doesn't have nearly that kind of range or destructive ability.  They had DOZENS inside the circle tower and they didn't even manage to GET OUT.  Wynne was holding the abominations at bay by herself with just the one magic barrier.

If anyone is a WMD in a game, it's the PC--no matter what class they are, for some reason.  One man walking catastrophe.

[DamnThoseDisplayNames]

Would take more than just two puppies to stop Polaris. If you don't have David Gaider in templar armor with +5 sword on your side, you just may as well give up, guys.

Modifié par DamnThoseDisplayNames, 03 février 2011 - 11:52 .

[Falls Edge]

How bout we all agree that the best way of solving this moral dillema is weakening mages ability to use magic from the fade?

[AlexXIV]

Falls Edge wrote...

How bout we all agree that the best way of solving this moral dillema is weakening mages ability to use magic from the fade?

If the Chantry knew a way to do that you could be sure it would have been done by now.

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

PsychoBlonde wrote...
I mean, WMD?  A single mage doesn't have nearly that kind of range or destructive ability.

WMD =/= nuke. WMD encompasses any weapon with the potential for massive collateral damage, including civilians.

[IanPolaris]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

I haven't used the word "bigot" once, nor have I called people such. 

Link.

Read your own link.  I did NOT call anyone a bigot.  I said that people were supporting bigotry which is true.  There is a difference.  Edit:  It's also true that I did not use the word bigot.  I used the word bigotry which is related but not the same word.

IanPolaris wrote...

No one questions the need to regulate mages and or magic.

We're also not talking about modern reactions to mages either.  But you do seem to keep bringing that up too, if occasionally only by implication.

So is DG directly, so I guess I am in good company.

IanPolaris wrote...

You chose the analogy not me as a reason why mages would be imprisoned.  Don't blame me for pointing out that the very analogy you want to cite doesn't really support your position.

It supports it in precisely the way I meant for it to, and nothing more.  It doesn't support it in the way you say it doesn't and was never meant to.  I'm glad we're getting somewhere.

Which isn't really topical since no one questions the need to regulate magic.

IanPolaris wrote...

Another has already answered this

And I already answered him.

I never said that you didn't, but it still doesn't change the fact that DA is as much about modern ethics because it is being played by modern people and not midaeval ones.  If we were truly talking about midaevel ethics, all mages would be burned at the stake.  Problem solved.

-Polaris

Modifié par IanPolaris, 03 février 2011 - 11:55 .

[Falls Edge]

AlexXIV wrote...

Falls Edge wrote...

How bout we all agree that the best way of solving this moral dillema is weakening mages ability to use magic from the fade?

If the Chantry knew a way to do that you could be sure it would have been done by now.

Their own prophet was a mage.

[Ziggeh]

IanPolaris wrote...
Another has already answered this, but the entire quesiton is very much a modern ethical issue of freedom vs security.

As he says though, that's a question for the player and not so much the general population of thedas.

IanPolaris wrote...
IRL Middle-Ages Europe a mage would have a summary "trial" and burned at the stake (and Islamic countries were no better given that the Koran explicitly calls 'sorcery' a mortal sin).

Unless they were your anti qunari insurance policy. Hard to say what they'd do then, but my money would be on locking them up in big towers.

[AlexXIV]

Falls Edge wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Falls Edge wrote...

How bout we all agree that the best way of solving this moral dillema is weakening mages ability to use magic from the fade?

If the Chantry knew a way to do that you could be sure it would have been done by now.

Their own prophet was a mage.

That's just a theory. And I am sure not one that the Chantry supports.

[Anarya]

IanPolaris wrote...

Anarya wrote...

Even discounting the abomination issue, governments generally don't let the populace have free access to guns and explosives, WMDs, etc. It's unfortunate for the mage that he IS the WMD, but what can you do? We see different solutions to the problem among the different societies of Thedas. None of them is perfect because again, it's meant to be a complicated issue.

I can go to the hardware store and do a quick read (and it wouldn't even be that exstensive a read) of the Anarchists Cookbook (which you can find online), and I can destroy several city blocks.   For that matter, blowing up a crowed gynasium (and being virtually undetectable until you do) is childsplay.   All you need is Diesel Fuel and Industrial Fertilizer and no regard for human life including your own.

-Polaris

Edit:  Actually if you live on a farm and/or have knowledge of even basic organic chemistry, you don't even need to go to a hardware store.  The stuff lying around is good enough to make high explosives.  Yes you can make plastic explosives in your kitchen sink.

Um yes, do I really need to explain why these things aren't banned while purpose-built explosives are?

Modifié par Anarya, 03 février 2011 - 11:55 .

[themageguy]

i like mages. a mage doesnt necessarily have to mean death and destruction. A mage can heal, dispel curses and use magic help work the land and protect the village.

[TheFuanamos]

All I want is a pretty girl, a decent meal, and the right to shoot lightning at fools...

[PsychoBlonde]

AlexXIV wrote...

Falls Edge wrote...

How bout we all agree that the best way of solving this moral dillema is weakening mages ability to use magic from the fade?

If the Chantry knew a way to do that you could be sure it would have been done by now.

It's not exactly a great solution, either.  If you weaken the mages without instigating some kind of cultural change, you've basically just made them unable to defend themselves against angry people with pitchforks.  And since the Chantry would still be going around saying that Mages were responsible for the Maker leaving . . . no.  

[IanPolaris]

Falls Edge wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Falls Edge wrote...

How bout we all agree that the best way of solving this moral dillema is weakening mages ability to use magic from the fade?

If the Chantry knew a way to do that you could be sure it would have been done by now.

Their own prophet was a mage.

To be fair, this is only speculation (by a mage no less) and thus disputed.  I personally wouldn't be shocked if Andraste was a mage and perhaps even a bloodmage (and would explain a great deal), but I am not going to take that as a given.

-Polaris

[DamnThoseDisplayNames]

If the Chantry knew a way to do that you could be sure it would have been done by now

They can just make all mages Tranquil - a good way to boost magic economy and number of enchanted items.

Hint is, they don't want to. Everyone has their own mages, even Darkspawn, people would loose the war and die if not for their mages. And instead for praising them as heroes, they do what they think is right to do.

[tmp7704]

IanPolaris wrote...

It's virtually impossible to completely wipe out a Dalish clan given that even the children are skilled woodsmen. If your own warden can't completely wipe out a Dalish clan (and he doesn't not even if he sides with the werewolves....and we know we don't because we meet up with survivors later), then an abomination won't either...and that means that the Dalish will hear about it and certainly often enough to generate the social footprint I am talking about.

That's extrapolating single case which doesn't even have that much in common with the subject at hand into generalisation, again.

Additionally, consider this situation from the point of view of these most interested and likely to become abominations themselves, i.e. the clan Keepers. Why exactly would they want their people to spread such news? That'd be potentially severe blow to their authority and entire social order. As such, if anything it's in their own interest to quell news about such accidents and cover them up (presenting them as human backlash or whatever) rather than advertise them.

If not, then there shouldn't BE any more Dalish given the low population growth rates and dangerous lifestyle of the Dalish in general.

We don't exactly know how many Dalish is there, and equally little about their growth rate. If i recall right it's the dwarves that have this problem.

Three actually and you learn quite a bit about Dalish lore and customs even for a non-Dalish.

What is the third? Velanna's tribe which we don't actually get to see save from a few messengers?

I know that Chasind rescued Fergus, and I know in Lotherering you see at least three, and I do seem to remember seing more.  The point is that Chasind aren't that rare.

Chasind rescue Fergus because he gots lost in the area where they live. And he doesn't tell us anything about them other than that. So, we see three Chasind in a single place in the entire game that you can recall. How is that not rare? This point doesn't really seem to be well supported.

You get some very complete descriptions of the Chasind written by Chantry scholars no less.

We get a single page (whole four paragraphs) about them in the Codex. And that description doesn't even have such basic information as how many Chasind actually is out there, it merely speculates about it. I'm sorry, but your idea of "very complete description" is very far from what i'd consider as such.

[upsettingshorts]

IanPolaris wrote...

Read your own link.  I did NOT call anyone a bigot.  I said that people were supporting bigotry which is true.  There is a difference.  Edit:  It's also true that I did not use the word bigot.  I used the word bigotry which is related but not the same word.

Okay, by that logic I am going to say you support an idiotic position.

IanPolaris wrote...

Which isn't really topical since no one questions the need to regulate magic.

Read it again.  I was describing what I believe the discussion was actually about.  Eg. not slavery but pre-emptive imprisonment.  Like mental patients.