1283 réponses à ce sujet

[AlexXIV]

DamnThoseDisplayNames wrote...

If the Chantry knew a way to do that you could be sure it would have been done by now

They can just make all mages Tranquil - a good way to boost magic economy and number of enchanted items.
Hint is, they don't want to. Everyone has their own mages, even Darkspawn, people would loose the war and die if not for their mages. And instead for praising them as heroes, they do what they think is right to do.

If they would make every mage tranquil though then they would get more apostates and would not even have mages if they need them.

[IanPolaris]

Ziggeh wrote...

Unless they were your anti qunari insurance policy. Hard to say what they'd do then, but my money would be on locking them up in big towers.

Except mages were locked into towers during Ambrosia II which as I recall was before the Qunari were even known, so that can't be the reason.

-Polaris

[Ziggeh]

AlexXIV wrote...

Well I would rather have one organisation handle it that does not have territorital or monetary agendas than multiple kingdoms where you never know what tyrant will be next on the throne.

Well, they do have both of those, both externally and internally. The chantry in essence keep an army and a stockpile of weapons within the borders of every nation. They are almost certainly utlised a lot less than they would be if the controlling organisations were smaller though.

[Falls Edge]

DamnThoseDisplayNames wrote...

If the Chantry knew a way to do that you could be sure it would have been done by now

They can just make all mages Tranquil - a good way to boost magic economy and number of enchanted items.
Hint is, they don't want to. Everyone has their own mages, even Darkspawn, people would loose the war and die if not for their mages. And instead for praising them as heroes, they do what they think is right to do.

Right now the mages are at the sweet spot, it's where the majority of templars want the mages to be, useful but not to powerful as to be outside of their control, however if you weaken it to where this is the best mages can do, and not say, at the level of Flemmeth they would be deemed different, and dangerous but not too dangerous, basically there would less need to control the mages if they couldn't become something similar to a nuclear bomb.

Mages would still be able to defend themselves against biggots without actually having the capacity to wipe out every non-mage in existance, they would have to be more intelligent with how they used their powers and would invent a lot of small scale spells.

This would allow the templars to loosen up, the best a mage could do is kill 10 people, but 1 templar or 2 could take one down, so you could just replace templars with town guards.

That addiction stuff sucks though, I guess it would just be best to cut off the fade entirely, no demons, no abominations, no magic, but that'd be boring.

Basically, what Wynne said would be much more reasonable, if the fade was slightly farther away from mages robbing of the ability to change the world beyond a forest fire.

Modifié par Falls Edge, 04 février 2011 - 12:06 .

[IanPolaris]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Read your own link.  I did NOT call anyone a bigot.  I said that people were supporting bigotry which is true.  There is a difference.  Edit:  It's also true that I did not use the word bigot.  I used the word bigotry which is related but not the same word.

Okay, by that logic I am going to say you support an idiotic position.

Clever.  Think of that on your own did you?  Of course proof of that would be helpful.  I can supply a defintion of 'bigotry' and back why the circle tower system is an exmple of it.

IanPolaris wrote...

Which isn't really topical since no one questions the need to regulate magic.

Read it again.  I was describing what I believe the discussion was actually about.  Eg. not slavery but pre-emptive imprisonment.  Like mental patients.

And I pointed out that the very mental health professionals that used to do such things now consider the practice regressive and actively harmful.  It's HARD to be pernmanently institutionalized and never preemptively.  Thus your own model fails.

-Polaris

[AlexXIV]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Read your own link.  I did NOT call anyone a bigot.  I said that people were supporting bigotry which is true.  There is a difference.  Edit:  It's also true that I did not use the word bigot.  I used the word bigotry which is related but not the same word.

Okay, by that logic I am going to say you support an idiotic position.

IanPolaris wrote...

Which isn't really topical since no one questions the need to regulate magic.

Read it again.  I was describing what I believe the discussion was actually about.  Eg. not slavery but pre-emptive imprisonment.  Like mental patients.

I think the problem is the 'imprisonment'. So the question is to balance freedom and control. They should not feel treated like prisoners but rather 'guarded', and at the same time have enough freedoms to not think about mutiny or escape.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 04 février 2011 - 12:07 .

[tmp7704]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

Templar abilities focus on resisting and dispelling the magic.

So do a great many spells.

Which doesn't mean what templars learn is actually the same thing. According to the game lore the magic is based on use of mana. Templars lack the ability to use this resource.

Yeah, we need to lock up hardware stores IMMEDIATELY.

Alternatively we could just drop this little nonsense as you can't really deny that there's a difference in having inherent ability to do something, and ability only made possible through tools. I can buy a ticket and fly around in a plane but that won't make me a bird.

[Falls Edge]

AlexXIV wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Read your own link.  I did NOT call anyone a bigot.  I said that people were supporting bigotry which is true.  There is a difference.  Edit:  It's also true that I did not use the word bigot.  I used the word bigotry which is related but not the same word.

Okay, by that logic I am going to say you support an idiotic position.

IanPolaris wrote...

Which isn't really topical since no one questions the need to regulate magic.

Read it again.  I was describing what I believe the discussion was actually about.  Eg. not slavery but pre-emptive imprisonment.  Like mental patients.

I think the problem is the 'imprisonment'. So the question is to balance freedom and control. They should not feel treated like prisoners but rather 'guarded', and at the same time have enough freedoms to not think about mutiny or escape.

That's just smoke and mirrors, trusting the guards to regulate themselves is like trusting your dog with guarding your steak.

[Ziggeh]

IanPolaris wrote...

Ziggeh wrote...

Unless they were your anti qunari insurance policy. Hard to say what they'd do then, but my money would be on locking them up in big towers.

Except mages were locked into towers during Ambrosia II which as I recall was before the Qunari were even known, so that can't be the reason.

Can't be the reason for what? We were talking about real life medieval europe.

[AlexXIV]

tmp7704 wrote...

PsychoBlonde wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

Templar abilities focus on resisting and dispelling the magic.

So do a great many spells.

Which doesn't mean what templars learn is actually the same thing. According to the game lore the magic is based on use of mana. Templars lack the ability to use this resource.

Yeah, we need to lock up hardware stores IMMEDIATELY.

Alternatively we could just drop this little nonsense as you can't really deny that there's a difference in having inherent ability to do something, and ability only made possible through tools. I can buy a ticket and fly around in a plane but that won't make me a bird.

Yet planes are more dangerous than birds. Especially the ones with guns and bombs.

[PsychoBlonde]

Anarya wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Anarya wrote...

Even discounting the abomination issue, governments generally don't let the populace have free access to guns and explosives, WMDs, etc. It's unfortunate for the mage that he IS the WMD, but what can you do? We see different solutions to the problem among the different societies of Thedas. None of them is perfect because again, it's meant to be a complicated issue.

I can go to the hardware store and do a quick read (and it wouldn't even be that exstensive a read) of the Anarchists Cookbook (which you can find online), and I can destroy several city blocks.   For that matter, blowing up a crowed gynasium (and being virtually undetectable until you do) is childsplay.   All you need is Diesel Fuel and Industrial Fertilizer and no regard for human life including your own.

-Polaris

Edit:  Actually if you live on a farm and/or have knowledge of even basic organic chemistry, you don't even need to go to a hardware store.  The stuff lying around is good enough to make high explosives.  Yes you can make plastic explosives in your kitchen sink.

Um yes, do I really need to explain why these things aren't banned while purpose-built explosives are?

Only if you're going to argue that other things SHOULD be banned simply on the basis that they're dangerous. That is a silly argument, because EVERYTHING is dangerous.  (And pretty much everyone knows this.)  You could argue that mages can do things that are somehow more dangerous than things other people can do.  But this is demonstrably false.  If anything, mages are LESS dangerous than most things because they have more *direct* control over their abilities.  If there's a thunderstorm over my house, I can't convince the storm to go away.  If there's a mage throwing lightning bolts around at random, I CAN go up and ask him to stop.  And he can stop.

It is the faculty of VOLITION that requires us to respect people's rights, not the fact that by some calculation some people are more or less dangerous than X, Y, or Z.  The fact that mages can choose to control themselves requires that they be allowed that chance (even while you're keeping a sharp eye on them).  The Chantry system is by no means the worst ever (it's not even as bad as the Qunari system), but it's not entirely proper, either.

(BTW, I'm in favor of people not being allowed to own WMD because it's absurd to own something that you can't conceivably use in a controlled manner that won't hurt anyone else.  If you want to have a gun and shoot it at straw targets, fine.  Doesn't hurt anyone.  You want to shoot it at deer?  Fine.  Doesn't hurt anyone.  But you can't detonate a nuke anywhere and not hurt anyone or destroy property except by total accident.  So no nuke for you.)

[PsychoBlonde]

Falls Edge wrote...


That's just smoke and mirrors, trusting the guards to regulate themselves is like trusting your dog with guarding your steak.

Erm, I'm pretty sure Templars don't eat mages.

[IanPolaris]

Ziggeh wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Ziggeh wrote...

Unless they were your anti qunari insurance policy. Hard to say what they'd do then, but my money would be on locking them up in big towers.

Except mages were locked into towers during Ambrosia II which as I recall was before the Qunari were even known, so that can't be the reason.

Can't be the reason for what? We were talking about real life medieval europe.

So was I.  At the time when mages were sent to the tower, the Quanari threat did not exist, and thus we are back to buring mages at the stake...which is essentially what Ambrosia II wanted to do all along. 

This tells me on a meta-game issue that this is an issue revolving around modern ethics and needs to be analyzed that way.

-Polaris

[AlexXIV]

Falls Edge wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Read your own link.  I did NOT call anyone a bigot.  I said that people were supporting bigotry which is true.  There is a difference.  Edit:  It's also true that I did not use the word bigot.  I used the word bigotry which is related but not the same word.

Okay, by that logic I am going to say you support an idiotic position.

IanPolaris wrote...

Which isn't really topical since no one questions the need to regulate magic.

Read it again.  I was describing what I believe the discussion was actually about.  Eg. not slavery but pre-emptive imprisonment.  Like mental patients.

I think the problem is the 'imprisonment'. So the question is to balance freedom and control. They should not feel treated like prisoners but rather 'guarded', and at the same time have enough freedoms to not think about mutiny or escape.

That's just smoke and mirrors, trusting the guards to regulate themselves is like trusting your dog with guarding your steak.

I don't have a dog, but if I had one and I wanted him to guard my steak I'd make sure he does.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 04 février 2011 - 12:12 .

[Erani]

Mages are awesome.

[Falls Edge]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

Anarya wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Anarya wrote...

Even discounting the abomination issue, governments generally don't let the populace have free access to guns and explosives, WMDs, etc. It's unfortunate for the mage that he IS the WMD, but what can you do? We see different solutions to the problem among the different societies of Thedas. None of them is perfect because again, it's meant to be a complicated issue.

I can go to the hardware store and do a quick read (and it wouldn't even be that exstensive a read) of the Anarchists Cookbook (which you can find online), and I can destroy several city blocks.   For that matter, blowing up a crowed gynasium (and being virtually undetectable until you do) is childsplay.   All you need is Diesel Fuel and Industrial Fertilizer and no regard for human life including your own.

-Polaris

Edit:  Actually if you live on a farm and/or have knowledge of even basic organic chemistry, you don't even need to go to a hardware store.  The stuff lying around is good enough to make high explosives.  Yes you can make plastic explosives in your kitchen sink.

Um yes, do I really need to explain why these things aren't banned while purpose-built explosives are?

Only if you're going to argue that other things SHOULD be banned simply on the basis that they're dangerous. That is a silly argument, because EVERYTHING is dangerous.  (And pretty much everyone knows this.)  You could argue that mages can do things that are somehow more dangerous than things other people can do.  But this is demonstrably false.  If anything, mages are LESS dangerous than most things because they have more *direct* control over their abilities.  If there's a thunderstorm over my house, I can't convince the storm to go away.  If there's a mage throwing lightning bolts around at random, I CAN go up and ask him to stop.  And he can stop.

It is the faculty of VOLITION that requires us to respect people's rights, not the fact that by some calculation some people are more or less dangerous than X, Y, or Z.  The fact that mages can choose to control themselves requires that they be allowed that chance (even while you're keeping a sharp eye on them).  The Chantry system is by no means the worst ever (it's not even as bad as the Qunari system), but it's not entirely proper, either.

(BTW, I'm in favor of people not being allowed to own WMD because it's absurd to own something that you can't conceivably use in a controlled manner that won't hurt anyone else.  If you want to have a gun and shoot it at straw targets, fine.  Doesn't hurt anyone.  You want to shoot it at deer?  Fine.  Doesn't hurt anyone.  But you can't detonate a nuke anywhere and not hurt anyone or destroy property except by total accident.  So no nuke for you.)

The problem with this is that it really only takes one mage to use a nuclear bomb like spell and poof.

We've been shown what a weak, dumb downed mage can do, we've been shown what a knowledgable somewhat immortal mage can do (Turn into an army destroying dragon) and then we've seen blood magic, the ability to turn normal people into a thug army.

[upsettingshorts]

IanPolaris wrote...

Clever.  Think of that on your own did you?  Of course proof of that would be helpful.  I can supply a defintion of 'bigotry' and back why the circle tower system is an exmple of it.

Nah, if you wanna keep rationalizing your use of offensive language to demean fellow posters, you go right ahead. 

IanPolaris wrote...

And I pointed out that the very mental health professionals that used to do such things now consider the practice regressive and actively harmful.

And you continue to miss the point entirely.  I will break it down one final time for the sake of decorum.

What I am saying the argument is not about:  Slavery. 
What I am saying the argument is about:  Pre-emptive imprisonment
What is a convenient example of pre-emptive imprisonment for people who might not immediately understand the concept or make the connection?:  Mental institutions.

Please point out to me where I make a value judgement, let alone make the one you are refuting.  You can't because it's not there.  Unless you're going to go on about all the ways in which the argument is best served by framing it as an example of slavery instead of pre-emptive imprisonment.  That would actually be against the "model" I put forward.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 04 février 2011 - 12:15 .

[Xewaka]

Circle mage character entrance on the Dragon Age pen and paper RPG:

"During the second Blight the mages proved their worth and helped save humanity. This allowed them to gain a measure of autonomy, and thus was born the first Circle of Magi. While there are still Chantry Templars stationed in every Circle tower, it is the mages who police those with magical power. Circle mages find people with magical talent and bring them to their towers for training and supervision, and to teach them to defend themselves against demonic possesion".

The circle is ruled by the mages, not the templars.

Modifié par Xewaka, 04 février 2011 - 12:16 .

[tmp7704]

AlexXIV wrote...

Yet planes are more dangerous than birds. Especially the ones with guns and bombs.

And as such they're locked up in hangars and kept under strict surveillance 24/7. Won't someone think of the poor planes and how they must feel?

[Ziggeh]

Falls Edge wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...
I think the problem is the 'imprisonment'. So the question is to balance freedom and control. They should not feel treated like prisoners but rather 'guarded', and at the same time have enough freedoms to not think about mutiny or escape.

That's just smoke and mirrors, trusting the guards to regulate themselves is like trusting your dog with guarding your steak.

Bingo. Even if the instruction is to gaurd these people, the fact that they can't let them go makes them jailors and by definition antagonistic. Asking either side to not be pretty ****ty to the other is unrealistic.

Modifié par Ziggeh, 04 février 2011 - 12:15 .

[Morroian]

Anarya wrote...

Um yes, do I really need to explain why these things aren't banned while purpose-built explosives are?

But mages aren't purpose made WMDs. They can perform a wide variety of productive tasks if properly integrated into society. 

[IanPolaris]

AlexXIV wrote...

I think the problem is the 'imprisonment'. So the question is to balance freedom and control. They should not feel treated like prisoners but rather 'guarded', and at the same time have enough freedoms to not think about mutiny or escape.

Indeed.  Just because Psychiatrists and other mental health practitioners regard pre-emptive institutionalision to be regressive and harmful doesn't mean that such mental health patients are kicked out the door and told to "sink or swim".  Most are watched and helped (usually both at the same time) and often in carefully controlled environments tailored as much as possible to the specific case.  Permanent institutionalisation (read imprisonment) is done at last resort and invariably only after specific acts have warrented it.

-Polaris

[KawaiiKatie]

Templar oversight of mages only really bothers me when children are involved. It's one thing to tell an adult that they'd better mind themselves and their incredible power--it's another thing entirely to round up children and take them from their homes, and have men with swords loom over them while they grow up. *shudders*