tmp7704 wrote...
And as such they're locked up in hangars and kept under strict surveillance 24/7. Won't someone think of the poor planes and how they must feel?AlexXIV wrote...
Yet planes are more dangerous than birds. Especially the ones with guns and bombs.
If they wouldn't lock away their planes they would be stolen, or salvaged or whatever. Anyway, the point was I think that whether you are a mage or have a just as powerful weapon is the same thing. Whether you are born with it or can be seperated from it doesn't change the potential threat.tmp7704 wrote...
And as such they're locked up in hangars and kept under strict surveillance 24/7. Won't someone think of the poor planes and how they must feel?AlexXIV wrote...
Yet planes are more dangerous than birds. Especially the ones with guns and bombs.
Modifié par Falls Edge, 04 février 2011 - 12:17 .
Allow me to point to my post about five entrances before this one yours.IanPolaris wrote...
Indeed. Just because Psychiatrists and other mental health practitioners regard pre-emptive institutionalision to be regressive and harmful doesn't mean that such mental health patients are kicked out the door and told to "sink or swim". Most are watched and helped (usually both at the same time) and often in carefully controlled environments tailored as much as possible to the specific case. Permanent institutionalisation (read imprisonment) is done at last resort and invariably only after specific acts have warrented it.AlexXIV wrote...
I think the problem is the 'imprisonment'. So the question is to balance freedom and control. They should not feel treated like prisoners but rather 'guarded', and at the same time have enough freedoms to not think about mutiny or escape.
-Polaris
This is actually demonstrably false in the computer game even with Greagoir being relatively lenient.Xewaka wrote...
Circle mage character entrance on the Dragon Age pen and paper RPG:
"During the second Blight the mages proved their worth and helped save humanity. This allowed them to gain a measure of autonomy, and thus was born the first Circle of Magi. While there are still Chantry Templars stationed in every Circle tower, it is the mages who police those with magical power. Circle mages find people with magical talent and bring them to their towers for training and supervision, and to teach them to defend themselves against demonic possesion".
The circle is ruled by the mages, not the templars.
Do you have the exact quote and/or another source of evidence? Until then, the information is complementary, not contradictory.Morroian wrote...
This is actually demonstrably false in the computer game even with Greagoir being relatively lenient.
PsychoBlonde wrote...
Only if you're going to argue that other things SHOULD be banned simply on the basis that they're dangerous. That is a silly argument, because EVERYTHING is dangerous. (And pretty much everyone knows this.) You could argue that mages can do things that are somehow more dangerous than things other people can do. But this is demonstrably false. If anything, mages are LESS dangerous than most things because they have more *direct* control over their abilities. If there's a thunderstorm over my house, I can't convince the storm to go away. If there's a mage throwing lightning bolts around at random, I CAN go up and ask him to stop. And he can stop.
It is the faculty of VOLITION that requires us to respect people's rights, not the fact that by some calculation some people are more or less dangerous than X, Y, or Z. The fact that mages can choose to control themselves requires that they be allowed that chance (even while you're keeping a sharp eye on them). The Chantry system is by no means the worst ever (it's not even as bad as the Qunari system), but it's not entirely proper, either.
(BTW, I'm in favor of people not being allowed to own WMD because it's absurd to own something that you can't conceivably use in a controlled manner that won't hurt anyone else. If you want to have a gun and shoot it at straw targets, fine. Doesn't hurt anyone. You want to shoot it at deer? Fine. Doesn't hurt anyone. But you can't detonate a nuke anywhere and not hurt anyone or destroy property except by total accident. So no nuke for you.)
Morroian wrote...
This is actually demonstrably false in the computer game even with Greagoir being relatively lenient.Xewaka wrote...
Circle mage character entrance on the Dragon Age pen and paper RPG:
"During the second Blight the mages proved their worth and helped save humanity. This allowed them to gain a measure of autonomy, and thus was born the first Circle of Magi. While there are still Chantry Templars stationed in every Circle tower, it is the mages who police those with magical power. Circle mages find people with magical talent and bring them to their towers for training and supervision, and to teach them to defend themselves against demonic possesion".
The circle is ruled by the mages, not the templars.
AlexXIV wrote...
I think the problem is the 'imprisonment'. So the question is to balance freedom and control. They should not feel treated like prisoners but rather 'guarded', and at the same time have enough freedoms to not think about mutiny or escape.
I think this just isn't exactly related to what i was discussing -- which was whether mages are indeed "the same humans like anyone else" or actually different kind, set apart by difference in DNA or whatever it is that makes them capable of utilizing the mana.AlexXIV wrote...
If they wouldn't lock away their planes they would be stolen, or salvaged or whatever. Anyway, the point was I think that whether you are a mage or have a just as powerful weapon is the same thing. Whether you are born with it or can be seperated from it doesn't change the potential threat.
As I asked before to Morroian, do you have a quotable source that proves that the power is back in hands of the templars?lv12medic wrote...
I'm thinking where the power lies in the circles (mages or templars) have shifted around from time to time. The second Blight was a long time ago from the Dragon Age which had the 4th Blight after a long gap after the 3rd.Morroian wrote...
This is actually demonstrably false in the computer game even with Greagoir being relatively lenient.Xewaka wrote...
Circle mage character entrance on the Dragon Age pen and paper RPG:
"During the second Blight the mages proved their worth and helped save humanity. This allowed them to gain a measure of autonomy, and thus was born the first Circle of Magi. While there are still Chantry Templars stationed in every Circle tower, it is the mages who police those with magical power. Circle mages find people with magical talent and bring them to their towers for training and supervision, and to teach them to defend themselves against demonic possesion".
The circle is ruled by the mages, not the templars.
Modifié par Xewaka, 04 février 2011 - 12:24 .
Upsettingshorts wrote...
IanPolaris wrote...
Clever. Think of that on your own did you? Of course proof of that would be helpful. I can supply a defintion of 'bigotry' and back why the circle tower system is an exmple of it.
Nah, if you wanna keep rationalizing your use of offensive language to demean fellow posters, you go right ahead.
IanPolaris wrote...
And I pointed out that the very mental health professionals that used to do such things now consider the practice regressive and actively harmful.
And you continue to miss the point entirely. I will break it down one final time for the sake of decorum.
What I am saying the argument is not about: Slavery.
What I am saying the argument is about: Pre-emptive imprisonment
What is a convenient example of pre-emptive imprisonment for people who might not immediately understand the concept or make the connection?: Mental institutions.
Please point out to me where I make a value judgement, let alone make the one you are refuting. You can't because it's not there. Unless you're going to go on about all the ways in which the argument is best served by framing it as an example of slavery instead of pre-emptive imprisonment. That would actually be against the "model" I put forward.
Falls Edge wrote...
The problem with this is that it really only takes one mage to use a nuclear bomb like spell and poof.
We've been shown what a weak, dumb downed mage can do, we've been shown what a knowledgable somewhat immortal mage can do (Turn into an army destroying dragon) and then we've seen blood magic, the ability to turn normal people into a thug army.
Hmm. That's being a bit selective with applying in game events. If they were seen as valuable prior to the decision to burn or not burn (they were an active part of the religious organisation after all), you get yet another outcome.IanPolaris wrote...
So was I. At the time when mages were sent to the tower, the Quanari threat did not exist, and thus we are back to buring mages at the stake...which is essentially what Ambrosia II wanted to do all along.
I don't think it does tell you that, I think it tells you it's not medieval europe. And I think analyzing it from a variety of positions is valid. Posing the question of whether my individual morality is more important than that of the pre-existing society, for example. Especially with my limited knowledge of the world. My first response to many of the major questions posed in Origins was: what on earth makes you think I'm qualified to answer that?IanPolaris wrote...
This tells me on a meta-game issue that this is an issue revolving around modern ethics and needs to be analyzed that way.
IanPolaris wrote...
Pot meet Kettle.
IanPolaris wrote...
Yes I undertstand what you are saying completely. You are simply wrong, that's all.
IanPolaris wrote...
Who's making a value judgment? I am pointing out that preemptive imprisonment for any reason is considered harmful, regressive, and at best self-defeating.
IanPolaris wrote...
What you are talking about used to be the justification for how mental heath institutions but is no longer because we know better now.
Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 04 février 2011 - 12:29 .
Xewaka wrote...
Circle mage character entrance on the Dragon Age pen and paper RPG:
"During the second Blight the mages proved their worth and helped save humanity. This allowed them to gain a measure of autonomy, and thus was born the first Circle of Magi. While there are still Chantry Templars stationed in every Circle tower, it is the mages who police those with magical power. Circle mages find people with magical talent and bring them to their towers for training and supervision, and to teach them to defend themselves against demonic possesion".
The circle is ruled by the mages, not the templars.
Falls Edge wrote...
The problem with this is that it really only takes one mage to use a nuclear bomb like spell and poof.
We've been shown what a weak, dumb downed mage can do, we've been shown what a knowledgable somewhat immortal mage can do (Turn into an army destroying dragon) and then we've seen blood magic, the ability to turn normal people into a thug army.
Anarya wrote...
For the third time: I'm not pro-chantry. I'm arguing that mages do indeed have potential to be dangerous and destructive and that I can see why that is a scary thing that many societies in Thedas think should be tightly controlled. Therefore, I can see why the chantry does what it does. Just as I can see why mages feel as they feel. I don't see how anyone can argue that mages are NOT potentially dangerous.
But I think I'm done with this thread in any case.
This appears to be an exaggeration, at best.IanPolaris wrote...
Yes I undertstand what you are saying completely. You are simply wrong, that's all. A mental illness (hereditary or not) is not considered sufficient justification to pre-emptively imprison (or institutionalise) anyone. It may turn out in rare cases that this is eventually what has to happen, but it's never done preemptively (at least not in Western societies).
PsychoBlonde wrote...
Falls Edge wrote...
The problem with this is that it really only takes one mage to use a nuclear bomb like spell and poof.
We've been shown what a weak, dumb downed mage can do, we've been shown what a knowledgable somewhat immortal mage can do (Turn into an army destroying dragon) and then we've seen blood magic, the ability to turn normal people into a thug army.
We HAVE? Where? Are you talking about Flemeth? Your warden can beat her BY HIMSELF. That's hardly "army-destroying". Or are you talking about the archdemon? Not only can your warden beat that thing by himself, but it was never supposed to have been a mage--it was supposed to be a GOD. And the only "blood magic" that does this is all behind the scenes--no actual mechanically usable blood magic in the game DOES this. So we haven't seen it, just claims of it.
There's a lot of stuff in the game that mechanically doesn't add up properly. You, the Warden, can get 100% spell resistance gear, just off some stuff that you BUY. So WHY doesn't EVERY TEMPLAR HAVE THIS GEAR. I mean, SERIOUSLY.
Half the time the game seems to think you're Mr. Averageguy, and half the time that you're some kind of unstoppable juggernaut of destruction. It really just throws all sense of comparable threat completely out the window. It's no different than various movies that insist ridiculously beautiful Hollywood actresses are (for the purposes of this movie), "nerdy" "awkward" and "plain". It's an informed attribute.
For some reason psychatrists declare rapists and child molesters healed and release them just so they can do it again. It's easy to give someone a chance to do something really bad as long as they are not doing it to you or someone who is important to you. I know mages are innocent, but they are also dangerous. More dangerous than 'normal' person. I mean it is probably great to be a mage. You can do alot of things other can't and nobody asks if that's fair, it is how it is. Would it really be such a big deal if in turn mages have a bit of screening to endure? I mean you have to get up every day to get to work and you can't just come and go as you please. Is that imprisonment? If the police makes random controls on the street you may have to endure it. If you want to fly to another country with a plane you have to endure security protocols. If you want to have a gun you have to make licences, lock it away and still can't just carry it around with you. At least where I live.Xewaka wrote...
Allow me to point to my post about five entrances before this one yours.IanPolaris wrote...
Indeed. Just because Psychiatrists and other mental health practitioners regard pre-emptive institutionalision to be regressive and harmful doesn't mean that such mental health patients are kicked out the door and told to "sink or swim". Most are watched and helped (usually both at the same time) and often in carefully controlled environments tailored as much as possible to the specific case. Permanent institutionalisation (read imprisonment) is done at last resort and invariably only after specific acts have warrented it.AlexXIV wrote...
I think the problem is the 'imprisonment'. So the question is to balance freedom and control. They should not feel treated like prisoners but rather 'guarded', and at the same time have enough freedoms to not think about mutiny or escape.
-Polaris
Modifié par AlexXIV, 04 février 2011 - 12:31 .
PsychoBlonde wrote...
Falls Edge wrote...
The problem with this is that it really only takes one mage to use a nuclear bomb like spell and poof.
We've been shown what a weak, dumb downed mage can do, we've been shown what a knowledgable somewhat immortal mage can do (Turn into an army destroying dragon) and then we've seen blood magic, the ability to turn normal people into a thug army.
We HAVE? Where? Are you talking about Flemeth? Your warden can beat her BY HIMSELF. That's hardly "army-destroying". Or are you talking about the archdemon? Not only can your warden beat that thing by himself, but it was never supposed to have been a mage--it was supposed to be a GOD. And the only "blood magic" that does this is all behind the scenes--no actual mechanically usable blood magic in the game DOES this. So we haven't seen it, just claims of it.
There's a lot of stuff in the game that mechanically doesn't add up properly. You, the Warden, can get 100% spell resistance gear, just off some stuff that you BUY. So WHY doesn't EVERY TEMPLAR HAVE THIS GEAR. I mean, SERIOUSLY.
Half the time the game seems to think you're Mr. Averageguy, and half the time that you're some kind of unstoppable juggernaut of destruction. It really just throws all sense of comparable threat completely out the window. It's no different than various movies that insist ridiculously beautiful Hollywood actresses are (for the purposes of this movie), "nerdy" "awkward" and "plain". It's an informed attribute.
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