1283 réponses à ce sujet

[IanPolaris]

Xewaka wrote...

lv12medic wrote...

Morroian wrote...

Xewaka wrote...
Circle mage character entrance on the Dragon Age pen and paper RPG:
"During the second Blight the mages proved their worth and helped save humanity. This allowed them to gain a measure of autonomy, and thus was born the first Circle of Magi. While there are still Chantry Templars stationed in every Circle tower, it is the mages who police those with magical power. Circle mages find people with magical talent and bring them to their towers for training and supervision, and to teach them to defend themselves against demonic possesion".
The circle is ruled by the mages, not the templars.

This is actually demonstrably false in the computer game even with Greagoir being relatively lenient.

I'm thinking where the power lies in the circles (mages or templars) have shifted around from time to time.  The second Blight was a long time ago from the Dragon Age which had the 4th Blight after a long gap after the 3rd.

As I asked before to Morroian, do you have a quotable source that proves that the power is back in hands of the templars?
I have brought such information from an official source. Until proven otherwise, the information on Circle rulership I presented is complementary to the game information presented, not contradictory.

I seem to recall that the DA RPG is made by Green Ronin (I am prepared to be corrected on this point) and while they clearly bought the RPG rights and coordinate with the Devs, they are NOT the same thing and as such it should not be considered an official source and especially not if other in-game source material given to us by the Devs contradict it.

-Polaris

[LobselVith8]

Morroian wrote...

Xewaka wrote...

Circle mage character entrance on the Dragon Age pen and paper RPG:

"During the second Blight the mages proved their worth and helped save humanity. This allowed them to gain a measure of autonomy, and thus was born the first Circle of Magi. While there are still Chantry Templars stationed in every Circle tower, it is the mages who police those with magical power. Circle mages find people with magical talent and bring them to their towers for training and supervision, and to teach them to defend themselves against demonic possesion".

The circle is ruled by the mages, not the templars.

This is actually demonstrably false in the computer game even with Greagoir being relatively lenient.

It's also contradicted by DA:O, where the codex explains that Emperor Drakon I created the Order of Templars, the Chantry of Andraste, the Circle of Magi, and the Orlesian Empire. Mages were later segregated under the Divine Ambrosia II because of a nonviolent protest they held in a cathedral.

[PsychoBlonde]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Blood magic is also used by Grey Wardens to defeat the darkspawn, and the Warden-Commander can use it to help stop the Blight. Mages can be of great aid in defending the assault against Denerim. We also know that mages have helped when it comes to stopping the Blights and were instrumental in stopping the Qunari invasion of the Andrastian nations. Yet how many mages were allowed to help at Ostagar? Seven. Only seven mages were permitted, and we saw what happened as a result.

Since Grey Wardens only exist due to the blood magic that is used as part of the Joining (and you need magic to do the Joining AT ALL), you could say that without mages (or with mages who are like, say, Qunari mages), the first Blight would have destroyed the world.  And you only have the Chantry's speculation to indicate that mages were somehow responsible for the Blight in the first place.

[lv12medic]

IanPolaris wrote...

Of course the publishers of the RPG aren't the same as the Devs of the game and world and so errors like this are almost inevitable.
-Polaris

Bioware built the Dragon Age IP themselves.  Not that contradictions can't exist in the game at all, if an editor missed something.  But the source of the error isn't from one source to another as there is only one source.

*edit*  And the Green Ronin tabletop game would be the one borrowing the IP from Bioware (instead of vice-versa) *end edit*

Modifié par lv12medic, 04 février 2011 - 12:34 .

[IanPolaris]

Xewaka wrote...

Morroian wrote...
This is actually demonstrably false in the computer game even with Greagoir being relatively lenient.

Do you have the exact quote and/or another source of evidence? Until then, the information is complementary, not contradictory.

Codex History of the Circle pretty much contradicts the RPG.  For that matter so does the Mage Origin story including the fact that Gregoire and not Irving had the first and last word as to who would and would not be made tranquil.

-Polaris

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

Isn't the general psychological health of all the mages we meet testament enough to the decent life the Tower offers? Anders is the only one we know of to have escaped and even he agrees that the Tower(s) serve a necessary function.

[IanPolaris]

lv12medic wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Of course the publishers of the RPG aren't the same as the Devs of the game and world and so errors like this are almost inevitable.
-Polaris

Bioware built the Dragon Age IP themselves.  Not that contradictions can't exist in the game at all, if an editor missed something.  But the source of the error isn't from one source to another as there is only one source.

I was pretty sure that Bioware contracted out their IP to someone else.  Regardless, RPG lore and world lore often contradict and they do here.  In such a case you have to go with the original game lore in terms of Hiearchy of Canon.

-Polaris

[lv12medic]

IanPolaris wrote...

lv12medic wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Of course the publishers of the RPG aren't the same as the Devs of the game and world and so errors like this are almost inevitable.
-Polaris

Bioware built the Dragon Age IP themselves.  Not that contradictions can't exist in the game at all, if an editor missed something.  But the source of the error isn't from one source to another as there is only one source.

I was pretty sure that Bioware contracted out their IP to someone else.  Regardless, RPG lore and world lore often contradict and they do here.  In such a case you have to go with the original game lore in terms of Hiearchy of Canon.

-Polaris

Which in this case would be the lore in the video game.

[Xewaka]

IanPolaris wrote...

Xewaka wrote...
Circle mage character entrance on the Dragon Age pen and paper RPG:
"During the second Blight the mages proved their worth and helped save humanity. This allowed them to gain a measure of autonomy, and thus was born the first Circle of Magi. While there are still Chantry Templars stationed in every Circle tower, it is the mages who police those with magical power. Circle mages find people with magical talent and bring them to their towers for training and supervision, and to teach them to defend themselves against demonic possesion".
The circle is ruled by the mages, not the templars.

This is directly contradicted by the in-game lore including the Codex Entry: HIstory of the Circle.  The second blight had nothing to do with the formation of the circle towers.  Of course the publishers of the RPG aren't the same as the Devs of the game and world and so errors like this are almost inevitable.  Point is, that when there is a contradiction, the original source material is canon.
-Polaris

I'll try to dig out the quote, but the Developers have indicated that the since the codex contains information from in-setting historians, its contents should be considered unreliable narration.
Also, the part I posted from the RPG is preceded by this text:
"in ages past the use of magic was outlawed outside the Tevinter Imperium, and those who practiced it were persecuted and hunted. This only got worse with the rise of the Chantry, as the new religion spoke out against magic as corrupt and evil. Magic, of course, was also quite useful, particularly when fighting creatures like Darkspawn. This led to a compromise in which mages could legally practice magic- but only under the watchful eye of the Chantry. Blood magic, the practice of the dreaded maleficar, was also strictly forbidden".
So while Chantry ruled mage towers still existed before the second Blight, the rulership of the same changed hands. Maybe the names got misplaced from medium to medium, but the stories presented are still complementary, not contradictory.

[AlexXIV]

Pseudocognition wrote...

Isn't the general psychological health of all the mages we meet testament enough to the decent life the Tower offers? Anders is the only one we know of to have escaped and even he agrees that the Tower(s) serve a necessary function.

And he even runs from the Wardens and returns. So it is probably more due to his nature than to the bad treatment in the tower.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 04 février 2011 - 12:36 .

[upsettingshorts]

Pseudocognition wrote...

Isn't the general psychological health of all the mages we meet testament enough to the decent life the Tower offers? Anders is the only one we know of to have escaped and even he agrees that the Tower(s) serve a necessary function.

That is a good point.

Personally the Circle Origin life seemed decent enough to everyone except Jowan, Lily, and (potentially, depending on their actions) the protagonist. 

It wasn't always pretty.  Nor was it really ideal.  But it wasn't like a rerun of Oz either.  Though I want Adebisi's hat for my Warden.  

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 04 février 2011 - 12:37 .

[Falls Edge]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Falls Edge wrote...

The problem with this is that it really only takes one mage to use a nuclear bomb like spell and poof.

We've been shown what a weak, dumb downed mage can do, we've been shown what a knowledgable somewhat immortal mage can do (Turn into an army destroying dragon) and then we've seen blood magic, the ability to turn normal people into a thug army.

Blood magic is also used by Grey Wardens to defeat the darkspawn, and the Warden-Commander can use it to help stop the Blight. Mages can be of great aid in defending the assault against Denerim. We also know that mages have helped when it comes to stopping the Blights and were instrumental in stopping the Qunari invasion of the Andrastian nations. Yet how many mages were allowed to help at Ostagar? Seven. Only seven mages were permitted, and we saw what happened as a result.

I never said that the mages as the majority of them now are is a bad thing, just that when you get into flemmeth level ability to control magic, all of a sudden you are in a bad negotiating position, there's nothing wrong with the dumbed down and incredibly weakened culturally destroyed magi of the world as they are now, but the second they start building that history and culture back up, there's a problem.

There's also a reason that the chantry has relaxed control, they're building the mages up to be an army, but they recognize that they still need control, they know they need the weapon, but they recognise what it can do in the wrong hands even if those hands are the mages hands themselves.

Telling mages do this or you'll die won't work when they can bite your head off as a dragon, the chantry has created an artificial sweet spot, strong enough to be useful, but weak enough so that they can't revolt and kill them.

[LobselVith8]

AlexXIV wrote...

For some reason psychatrists declare rapists and child molesters healed and release them just so they can do it again. It's easy to give someone a chance to do something really bad as long as they are not doing it to you or someone who is important to you. I know mages are innocent, but they are also dangerous. More dangerous than 'normal' person. I mean it is probably great to be a mage. You can do alot of things other can't and nobody asks if that's fair, it is how it is. Would it really be such a big deal if in turn mages have a bit of screening to endure? I mean you have to get up every day to get to work and you can't just come and go as you please. Is that imprisonment? If the police makes random controls on the street you may have to endure it. If you want to fly to another country with a plane you have to endure security protocols. If you want to have a gun you have to make licences, lock it away and still can't just carry it around with you. At least where I live.

The problem is mages are imprisoned now, and the Chantry doesn't appear to have any intention of relinquishing control over them anytime soon. They say no to the Magi boon, which makes it pointless and stupid to even have offered it as a choice when it effectively seems to mean nothing and is never addressed in the expansion or the DLCs. The templars have a history of killing mages and the Chantry has spread anti-mage dogma for centuries, and there are mages who see them as oppressors - so there's likely to be issues if the mages decide enough is enough, and fight for their emancipation from the Chantry and the Order of Templars.

[tmp7704]

Pseudocognition wrote...

Isn't the general psychological health of all the mages we meet testament enough to the decent life the Tower offers? Anders is the only one we know of to have escaped and even he agrees that the Tower(s) serve a necessary function.

Clearly, Anders is simply insane as result of cruel treatment he's undergone in the Tower, and such shouldn't be listened to.

[IanPolaris]

Pseudocognition wrote...

Isn't the general psychological health of all the mages we meet testament enough to the decent life the Tower offers? Anders is the only one we know of to have escaped and even he agrees that the Tower(s) serve a necessary function.

That isn't quite what Anders says, and as for the general psychological health of circle mages, I wouldn't be too sure about that either.  Let's see, there's Jowan, Anders, Finn, Wynne, and Irving and of them, I'd really say that only Anders and Irving are within shouting distance of being really mentally healthy (and Anders didn't go to the tower until his mid-teens which meant that most of his psychological developement occured outside the tower).

As for what Anders says, Anders is a moral coward when it comes to large things (like revolutions).  His personal bravery is not an issue and makes a fine Grey Warden, but he's scared to death (and not without reason) of what the Chantry will do if the Circles push for autonomy.  He's the sort of person that likes to eat steak but can't stand to see a cow butchered....and that's what we see in his conversation with Wynne.

Wynne really, really doesn't like you if you say, "If not now then when?"  However, Ines seems to be far more sympathetic to the Libertarian position (or at least of pre-Abomination Uldred) than Wynne seems to think.  (Wynne wrong again....who'd have thunk it?)

-Polaris

[LobselVith8]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Pseudocognition wrote...

Isn't the general psychological health of all the mages we meet testament enough to the decent life the Tower offers? Anders is the only one we know of to have escaped and even he agrees that the Tower(s) serve a necessary function.

That is a good point.

Personally the Circle Origin life seemed decent enough to everyone except Jowan, Lily, and (potentially, depending on their actions) the protagonist. 

It wasn't always pretty.  Nor was it really ideal.  But it wasn't like a rerun of Oz either.  Though I want Adebisi's hat for my Warden.  

Except we see the effects of Circle life on Keli, who thinks death is what she deserves for being a mage. We can also read about how the elven mage Fiona, a victim of rape in The Calling, sees the Circle as no better than her previous life.

[Falls Edge]

I think it can be safely assumed that their living conditions have only been improved within the last 10 to 20 years or so, as given by the mage tower head acting the way he does towards you.

[AlexXIV]

LobselVith8 wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

For some reason psychatrists declare rapists and child molesters healed and release them just so they can do it again. It's easy to give someone a chance to do something really bad as long as they are not doing it to you or someone who is important to you. I know mages are innocent, but they are also dangerous. More dangerous than 'normal' person. I mean it is probably great to be a mage. You can do alot of things other can't and nobody asks if that's fair, it is how it is. Would it really be such a big deal if in turn mages have a bit of screening to endure? I mean you have to get up every day to get to work and you can't just come and go as you please. Is that imprisonment? If the police makes random controls on the street you may have to endure it. If you want to fly to another country with a plane you have to endure security protocols. If you want to have a gun you have to make licences, lock it away and still can't just carry it around with you. At least where I live.

The problem is mages are imprisoned now, and the Chantry doesn't appear to have any intention of relinquishing control over them anytime soon. They say no to the Magi boon, which makes it pointless and stupid to even have offered it as a choice when it effectively seems to mean nothing and is never addressed in the expansion or the DLCs. The templars have a history of killing mages and the Chantry has spread anti-mage dogma for centuries, and there are mages who see them as oppressors - so there's likely to be issues if the mages decide enough is enough, and fight for their emancipation from the Chantry and the Order of Templars.

Well I agree. I never said I like the Chantry as it is. I just don't think burning the Chantry and setting all mages free is the better option. I am rather suggeing to reformate the Chantry and Circles to give the mages more freedom. And I would almost bet money most mages (if they were real) would be fine with it. There are alsways some exceptions though.

[LobselVith8]

Pseudocognition wrote...

Isn't the general psychological health of all the mages we meet testament enough to the decent life the Tower offers? Anders is the only one we know of to have escaped and even he agrees that the Tower(s) serve a necessary function.

Actually, Anders and Wynne point out that the Chantry would rather kill the mages than see them free.

[Morroian]

Xewaka wrote...

Morroian wrote...
This is actually demonstrably false in the computer game even with Greagoir being relatively lenient.

Do you have the exact quote and/or another source of evidence? Until then, the information is complementary, not contradictory.

All dealings you have with the mages tower in DAO contradict it. The codexes contradict it. When the mages towers were set up they probably were as your quote states but times have changed. Heck even David Gaider's posts on the matter imply that the templars are in control despite the fact that he appears to think that such control is necessary. 

Modifié par Morroian, 04 février 2011 - 12:44 .

[IanPolaris]

lv12medic wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

lv12medic wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Of course the publishers of the RPG aren't the same as the Devs of the game and world and so errors like this are almost inevitable.
-Polaris

Bioware built the Dragon Age IP themselves.  Not that contradictions can't exist in the game at all, if an editor missed something.  But the source of the error isn't from one source to another as there is only one source.

I was pretty sure that Bioware contracted out their IP to someone else.  Regardless, RPG lore and world lore often contradict and they do here.  In such a case you have to go with the original game lore in terms of Hiearchy of Canon.

-Polaris

Which in this case would be the lore in the video game.

It still takes precendence just as the books and writings of JRR Tolkein took precendence over what ICE printed when they had the LotR RPG Franchise.

-Polaris

[upsettingshorts]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Except we see the effects of Circle life on Keli, who thinks death is what she deserves for being a mage.

If that was the girl praying, I'd say that's an unrelated issue.  Given her views, there's no reason to suspect that she wouldn't think that if he discovered she had magical powers outside of the Tower's control.  It might even be worse, because she would be ostracized at worst, and have no help for her problems at best.

LobselVith8 wrote...

We can also read about how the elven mage Fiona, a victim of rape in The Calling, sees the Circle as no better than her previous life.

I didn't read The Calling, so I can't comment on events contained therein.   Codex entries are written by in-universe historians and are unreliable.  I was only commenting on what the player sees through the Warden's eyes, which is of course open to other interpretations than my own.

LobselVith8 wrote...

the Chantry would rather kill the mages than see them free.

How does that position relate to Thedas as a whole?  

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 04 février 2011 - 12:45 .

[Ziggeh]

IanPolaris wrote...

Codex History of the Circle pretty much contradicts the RPG. 

The codex entry doesn't say that the circle was formed, just that the mages were segregated. And the RPG quote doesn't explicitly state that it was formed at that point in time, just that the autonomy gained led to it.

I agree it's not fitting like jigsaw pieces or anything, but both texts could be true at the same time.

[tmp7704]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Except we see the effects of Circle life on Keli, who thinks death is what she deserves for being a mage.

Given she's only one who appears to think so, either it's her own, individual belief or the educational process utilized in the Circle is woefully inadequate and has failed for pretty much every other subject.

[LobselVith8]

AlexXIV wrote...

Well I agree. I never said I like the Chantry as it is. I just don't think burning the Chantry and setting all mages free is the better option. I am rather suggeing to reformate the Chantry and Circles to give the mages more freedom. And I would almost bet money most mages (if they were real) would be fine with it. There are alsways some exceptions though.

I think it might come down to a choice between the Order of Templars and the mages in DA2. The Chantry doesn't look like it's ever going to reform; they don't even seem to budge when the Hero of Ferelden asks for a royal boon for the Circle. I'm betting many mages want their freedom (as Wynne indicates about the meeting in Cumberland) rather than continued life under an oppressor.