1283 réponses à ce sujet

[Eveangaline]

Pseudocognition wrote...

Isn't the general psychological health of all the mages we meet testament enough to the decent life the Tower offers? Anders is the only one we know of to have escaped and even he agrees that the Tower(s) serve a necessary function.

There was also Anearan. Who was just a scared kid who ran away, that the templars went after to try to kill.

[Ziggeh]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Personally the Circle Origin life seemed decent enough to everyone except Jowan, Lily, and (potentially, depending on their actions) the protagonist. 

It wasn't always pretty.  Nor was it really ideal.  But it wasn't like a rerun of Oz either.  Though I want Adebisi's hat for my Warden. 

Just how did that thing stay on his head?

I mentioned somewhere before, if I was a mage personally I would spend the entirity of it trying to ensure a monster didn't take up habitation in my skull. The fact that such information is centralised seems like a plus. Most things after the whole monster taking over brain thing would be a secondary concern.

[IanPolaris]

Xewaka wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Xewaka wrote...
Circle mage character entrance on the Dragon Age pen and paper RPG:
"During the second Blight the mages proved their worth and helped save humanity. This allowed them to gain a measure of autonomy, and thus was born the first Circle of Magi. While there are still Chantry Templars stationed in every Circle tower, it is the mages who police those with magical power. Circle mages find people with magical talent and bring them to their towers for training and supervision, and to teach them to defend themselves against demonic possesion".
The circle is ruled by the mages, not the templars.

This is directly contradicted by the in-game lore including the Codex Entry: HIstory of the Circle.  The second blight had nothing to do with the formation of the circle towers.  Of course the publishers of the RPG aren't the same as the Devs of the game and world and so errors like this are almost inevitable.  Point is, that when there is a contradiction, the original source material is canon.
-Polaris

I'll try to dig out the quote, but the Developers have indicated that the since the codex contains information from in-setting historians, its contents should be considered unreliable narration.
Also, the part I posted from the RPG is preceded by this text:
"in ages past the use of magic was outlawed outside the Tevinter Imperium, and those who practiced it were persecuted and hunted. This only got worse with the rise of the Chantry, as the new religion spoke out against magic as corrupt and evil. Magic, of course, was also quite useful, particularly when fighting creatures like Darkspawn. This led to a compromise in which mages could legally practice magic- but only under the watchful eye of the Chantry. Blood magic, the practice of the dreaded maleficar, was also strictly forbidden".
So while Chantry ruled mage towers still existed before the second Blight, the rulership of the same changed hands. Maybe the names got misplaced from medium to medium, but the stories presented are still complementary, not contradictory.

The Codecies are written from a point of view.  That much is true, but that does not mean they are non-factual.  Both Lob and I agree that the History of the Circle Codex is written from the Chantry's Point of View, but it does rely what did happen.  In this cas the RPG is saying things that directly contradict the game facts as presented in the books, the original game itself, AND the codex entries for that game.

In short, the RPG is overruled. (At least for canon.  What you want to do at your own table is of course up to you as with any Table-top RPG).

-Polaris

[LobselVith8]

tmp7704 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Except we see the effects of Circle life on Keli, who thinks death is what she deserves for being a mage.

Given she's only one who appears to think so, either it's her own, individual belief or the educational process utilized in the Circle is woefully inadequate and has failed for pretty much every other subject.

That must explain that little revolution that happened in DA:O - because evidently only one person was unhappy with life in the Circle. Not to mention the Cumberland meeting regarding breaking free from the Chantry completely.

[AlexXIV]

LobselVith8 wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Well I agree. I never said I like the Chantry as it is. I just don't think burning the Chantry and setting all mages free is the better option. I am rather suggeing to reformate the Chantry and Circles to give the mages more freedom. And I would almost bet money most mages (if they were real) would be fine with it. There are alsways some exceptions though.

I think it might come down to a choice between the Order of Templars and the mages in DA2. The Chantry doesn't look like it's ever going to reform; they don't even seem to budge when the Hero of Ferelden asks for a royal boon for the Circle. I'm betting many mages want their freedom (as Wynne indicates about the meeting in Cumberland) rather than continued life under an oppressor.

Yep. Again I agree. I also think some Chantry zealots will likely tip me off so I will go side with the mages. Kinda sad but what can I do? I can suggest them to do what I say or I can kill them.

[Falls Edge]

After reading David's posts here I think that it really was about controlling the mages themselves and not because they could turn into abominations, that was just one bad side effect of the mage problem as a whole.

I'll take the way he wrote it as confirmation.

So I guess now, it's just conjecture about how you solve the mage problem itself? I wonder if they'll give us the option to make decisions about this? I don't think the option to weaken or move the fade away from their worlds reality will ever show up as a decision for a main character, so it will basically either consist of helping the mages form an organization that's independent of the chantry or supporting the current established rule of the templars.

Both choices suck though.

Modifié par Falls Edge, 04 février 2011 - 12:50 .

[Zavox]

Hmm? I seriously can't see how there can be a discussion on this subject...



Sure, mages are more likely to be the cause of destruction than a regular person is. Yet, that doesn't mean one should lock up ALL mages. It'd be the same in nowadays society to lock up a certain population group based on numbers that show they have a higher crime rate than average. One should not convict an entire population group based on the wrong doings of certain members of that group. Because if you do, you're convicting persons to exile who might never do anything wrong. It's convicting because of genetics, not on intent or action.

[IanPolaris]

Ziggeh wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Codex History of the Circle pretty much contradicts the RPG. 

The codex entry doesn't say that the circle was formed, just that the mages were segregated. And the RPG quote doesn't explicitly state that it was formed at that point in time, just that the autonomy gained led to it.

I agree it's not fitting like jigsaw pieces or anything, but both texts could be true at the same time.

True that codex entry doesn't, but other codex entries (History of the Chantry) DO specifically state that the Circle of Mages (as a society) was formed by Drakon I when he unified Orlais in a series of exalted marches.  He did so for the explicit purpose of controlling and regulating mages and magic.  The second blight has zero to do with it which again contradicts the RPG.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

[dp]

[Falls Edge]

Zavox wrote...

Hmm? I seriously can't see how there can be a discussion on this subject...

Sure, mages are more likely to be the cause of destruction than a regular person is. Yet, that doesn't mean one should lock up ALL mages. It'd be the same in nowadays society to lock up a certain population group based on numbers that show they have a higher crime rate than average. One should not convict an entire population group based on the wrong doings of certain members of that group. Because if you do, you're convicting persons to exile who might never do anything wrong. It's convicting because of genetics, not on intent or action.

Edit: bad example, what I mean is that as mages stand now they're relatively harmless, but it's been shown that if they were allowed to build themselves up they could lord it over everyone else, and only other mages could stop them.

Or something similar to cthullu/the maker.

Like, think about the United states, now make them 100 times as powerful and 40x more Imperialist, everyone is going to have a bad day.

Modifié par Falls Edge, 04 février 2011 - 12:56 .

[LobselVith8]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Except we see the effects of Circle life on Keli, who thinks death is what she deserves for being a mage.

If that was the girl praying, I'd say that's an unrelated issue.  Given her views, there's no reason to suspect that she wouldn't think that if he discovered she had magical powers outside of the Tower's control.  It might even be worse, because she would be ostracized at worst, and have no help for her problems at best.

Keli talks about how she's cursed after she's praying, and how they deserve death when you see her again at the Circle Tower. She's very religious, but thinks that she's cursed and that they deserve to be killed by swords of mercy. Given the anti-mage sentiment we see in Andrastian society (like when we speak to the Reverend Mother in Redcliffe not getting a mob to try to kill a human mage) that sharply contrasts with the mage tolerant societies we hear about (like the Chasind tribes and Rivain) and the mage tolerant clans of the Dalish, I see no reason not to see how the Chantry and the Chantry controlled Circles play a part in it, especially when even Greagoir says mages are cursed and blames them for the Blight.

Upsettingshorts wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

We can also read about how the elven mage Fiona, a victim of rape in The Calling, sees the Circle as no better than her previous life.

I didn't read The Calling, so I can't comment on events contained therein.   Codex entries are written by in-universe historians and are unreliable.  I was only commenting on what the player sees through the Warden's eyes, which is of course open to other interpretations than my own.

Fair enough. Clearly, different mages see the life in the Circle differently - you have people who accept their fate, like Wynne, and people who will risk their life for freedom from it, like Aenirin.

Upsettingshorts wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

the Chantry would rather kill the mages than see them free.

How does that position relate to Thedas as a whole?  

Mages are an important part of Thedas - one only needs to see their vital role in the New Exalted Marches and their magic overwhelming even the Qunari's advanced technology to see they have played a vital role. Right now the Circles are under Chantry control - as Gaider explained when he said the Chantry said no to the Magi boon asked by the Hero of Ferelden. Considering that the meeting in Cumberland is likely to be attended by the First Enchanters and Senior Enchanters across Thedas, it's likely going to be an important issue if they agree to break free from the Chantry, as Wynne and Anders indicate it'll lead to bloodshed because the Chantry would rather kill the mages than see them free.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 04 février 2011 - 12:55 .

[PsychoBlonde]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Pseudocognition wrote...

Isn't the general psychological health of all the mages we meet testament enough to the decent life the Tower offers? Anders is the only one we know of to have escaped and even he agrees that the Tower(s) serve a necessary function.

That is a good point.

Personally the Circle Origin life seemed decent enough to everyone except Jowan, Lily, and (potentially, depending on their actions) the protagonist. 

It wasn't always pretty.  Nor was it really ideal.  But it wasn't like a rerun of Oz either.  Though I want Adebisi's hat for my Warden.  

Yah, that is a good point, and I personally consider the Templars to be (for the most part) decent folks and rather benevolent.  (I liked Greagoir in particular, even when he was being shouty.)  Nor do I really buy the "excuse" that Uldred only revolted because mages were "oppressed".  Uldred and Jowan were IDIOTS to act like they did, and Uldred was flat out an evil bastard.  What's-his-name from the Warden's Keep DLC was an evil bastard, too.  And so was the Tevinde slaver you meet in the Alienage.  But so were a number of people you meet who weren't mages, and they do about the same job of kicking your ass as the mages do.  (Brief aside: if the templars had proof that Jowan was using blood magic, WHY didn't they just knock him over in the corridor and cut his head off?  What was all that rigmarole about waiting a couple of weeks then making him Tranquil?  Then they blame YOU for his escape?  Are you KIDDING me?)

I for one ain't saying the Templars are all-out bad.  I'm saying they are incorrect and could be improved.  The Qunari, on the other hand, are SO incorrect in their treatment of mages that you can't say anything redeeming about their practices, not even "they work" (see earlier discussion about needing magic to fight the Blight if you're wondering about that).

I would not be opposed to, say, mages being required to register and attend classes.  If standards of evidence were done properly, I wouldn't even be opposed to a one-strike policy.  (You use your magic to initiate force on other people, you die.  You throw a fireball at someone that's not provably in self-defense, end of the road for you.)  But after they've jumped through a few hoops, they should be left to go about their business.  There shouldn't be an endless procession of hoops.

[moilami]

I have read this full thread and I did not found a single new argument for chantry what I haven't seen before. What chantry apologist say can be summed with one chant:

- mages can kill people and are evil

There is the chant.

I have watched about 100 pages of arguing how mages can kill people and should therefore be killed and treated as cattle. And what are the arguments for it? The actual verses of the chant.

- chantry say so
- maker say so
- Wynne say so
- my daddy say so
- I think it is so
- me am sure mages can kill people
- My BF is templar
- omg demons
- mages apparently are dangerous
- lol I want to kill mages
- me hates OP mages in WoW
- mages can mind control
- me have never seen a mage peeing
- mages don't wear armour
- me likes swords
- mages destroy the world (thanks Falls Edge)
- Mages don't have life
- mages MC my momma
- Mages are not people
- Mage did not give **** to me
- Sucks that Morrigan had life
- Sucks Morrigan refused to become mind controlled by me
- me liked Leliana more lol
- me play templar
- I like chantry
- I don't have brains
- It only takes one bad guy mage to make the world a worse place for everyone (thanks Falls Edge)
- You need to work on your reading comphrension skills, among other things.  (thanks Upsettingshorts)
- Jedi padawan (Anonymous)
- set up robot templars instead of human ones (thanks Falls Edge)
- Because all other mages in the Circle has been under the same conditions (Anonymous)
- they want to go where they want to go (thanks Falls Edge)
- Damndable mages, all of em (Anonymous)
- They ought to lock em up tight or kill em all (Anonymous)
- I sure wouldn't want one in my village WOULD YOU (Anonymous)
- Killing innocent is grey area (Anonymous)
- It´s really sad if mages stop being feared because everybody gets access to similar killing power (Anonymous)
- Persoanlly I dislike mages, but they are useful. I just distrust a group of men prancing around in dresses... (Anonymous)


There are the arguments/verses of the chant. I will laugh for those for some days.

Modifié par moilami, 05 février 2011 - 02:41 .

[Dave of Canada]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Fiona, a victim of rape in The Calling

... why'd you bring up the rape? It has nothing to do with the Circle, she's raped in the Alienage.

[Xewaka]

IanPolaris wrote...
True that codex entry doesn't, but other codex entries (History of the Chantry) DO specifically state that the Circle of Mages (as a society) was formed by Drakon I when he unified Orlais in a series of exalted marches.  He did so for the explicit purpose of controlling and regulating mages and magic.  The second blight has zero to do with it which again contradicts the RPG.
-Polaris

That is why I explicitly said that the naming can be mucked up. You will notice that the fisrt paragraph in the entry (the second I posted) says that the mages were first organized under Chantry rule. You can call this the formation of the Circles of Mages as a society. And then, after the second blight, the mages gain control of the Circle, which is what the RPG refers to.
The naming might be wonky, but both stories are still complementary, not contradictory.

[IanPolaris]

Falls Edge wrote...
Edit: bad example, what I mean is that as mages stand now they're relatively harmless, but it's been shown that if they were allowed to build themselves up they could lord it over everyone else, and only other mages could stop them.

I get that.  However, by creating the antagonisms the Chantry is doing with the circle tower system, they've created a system that is metastable at best. 

When (not if) a war breaks out, the balance will shift either towards having basiclaly no mages at all (which is like saying "free eats to the Qunari and Darkspawn), or you will actually make it more likely that mages will as a group say (to borrow from X-Men), "Magneto Was Right" and make mages even less tolerant and less willing to work with mundanes....in which case given the built up and built in antangonisms, I can easily see a situation in time that makes the Tevinter Imperium look like a Sunday Stroll......

The best solution would be to gradually give mages the ability to work in society as productive members of it, but that train has long since left the proverbial station....

-Polaris

[Falls Edge]

moilami wrote...

I have read this full thread and I did not found a single new argument for chantry what I haven't seen before. What chantry apologist say can be summed with one chant:

- mages can kill people and are evil

There is the chant.

I have watched about 100 pages of arguing how mages can kill people and should therefore be killed and treated as cattle. And what are the arguments for it?

- chantry say so
- maker say so
- Wynne say so
- my daddy say so
- I think it is so
- me am sure mages can kill people
- My BF is templar
- lol demons
- mages apparently are dangerous
- lol I want to kill mages
- me hates OP mages in WoW
- mages can mind control
- me have never seen a mage peeing
- mages don't wear armour
- me likes swords
- mages destroy the world (thanks Falls Edge)
- Mages don't have life
- mages MC my momma
- Mages are not people
- Mage did not give **** to me
- Sucks that Morrigan had life
- Sucks Morrigan refused to become mind controlled by me
- me liked Leliana more lol
- me play templar
- I like chantry
- I don't have brains


There are the arguments. I will laugh for those for some days.

It only takes one bad guy mage to make the world a worse place for everyone.

And we've no shortage of bad guy mages.

[LobselVith8]

Falls Edge wrote...

After reading David's posts here I think that it really was about controlling the mages themselves and not because they could turn into abominations, that was just one bad side effect of the mage problem as a whole.

I'll take the way he wrote it as confirmation.

So I guess now, it's just conjecture about how you solve the mage problem itself? I wonder if they'll give us the option to make decisions about this? I don't think the option to weaken or move the fade away from their worlds reality will ever show up as a decision for a main character, so it will basically either consist of helping the mages form an organization that's independent of the chantry or supporting the current established rule of the templars.

Both choices suck though.  

Being free of the Chantry would be great, IMHO. My apostate Hawke would help the mages free themselves from the Chantry and establish themselves in Kirkwall, if not the Free Marches.

[upsettingshorts]

moilami wrote...

What chantry apologist say can be summed with one chant:

You need to work on your reading comphrension skills, among other things. 

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 04 février 2011 - 12:59 .

[LobselVith8]

Dave of Canada wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Fiona, a victim of rape in The Calling

... why'd you bring up the rape? It has nothing to do with the Circle, she's raped in the Alienage.

Because she saw her life in the Circle as no better than her previous life, which should tell you something.

[IanPolaris]

Dave of Canada wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Fiona, a victim of rape in The Calling

... why'd you bring up the rape? It has nothing to do with the Circle, she's raped in the Alienage.

When life in an organization is not considered a step up from being an involuntary sex-slave, then there is a problem doncha think?

-Polaris

[Ziggeh]

IanPolaris wrote...

True that codex entry doesn't, but other codex entries (History of the Chantry) DO specifically state that the Circle of Mages (as a society) was formed by Drakon I when he unified Orlais in a series of exalted marches.  He did so for the explicit purpose of controlling and regulating mages and magic.  The second blight has zero to do with it which again contradicts the RPG.

He fought the second Blight. I can't find an entry that says it was formed during those marches, do you have a link?

[IanPolaris]

Falls Edge wrote...

It only takes one bad guy mage to make the world a worse place for everyone.

And we've no shortage of bad guy mages.

The same can be said for any group with power (see Vaughn and the CE origin story).

-Polaris

[Zavox]

Falls Edge wrote...

Zavox wrote...

Hmm? I seriously can't see how there can be a discussion on this subject...

Sure, mages are more likely to be the cause of destruction than a regular person is. Yet, that doesn't mean one should lock up ALL mages. It'd be the same in nowadays society to lock up a certain population group based on numbers that show they have a higher crime rate than average. One should not convict an entire population group based on the wrong doings of certain members of that group. Because if you do, you're convicting persons to exile who might never do anything wrong. It's convicting because of genetics, not on intent or action.

Edit: bad example, what I mean is that as mages stand now they're relatively harmless, but it's been shown that if they were allowed to build themselves up they could lord it over everyone else, and only other mages could stop them.

One example in history (Tevinter Imperium) hardly shows evidence that such is so. Besides, they were toppled. Also, nor does it give evidence that mages can only be stopped by other mages, I even beg to differ as Templars can definately defeat mages. Even if one needs 10 men to defeat 1 mage, there's only so much mages. Definately less than 10% seems to be a mage.

[Dave of Canada]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Because she saw her life in the Circle as no better than her previous life, which should tell you something.

Around what page?

*drags out his book, blows dust*

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 04 février 2011 - 01:03 .