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Does anyone actually LIKE mages?


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#451
Falls Edge

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IanPolaris wrote...

Falls Edge wrote...
Edit: bad example, what I mean is that as mages stand now they're relatively harmless, but it's been shown that if they were allowed to build themselves up they could lord it over everyone else, and only other mages could stop them.


I get that.  However, by creating the antagonisms the Chantry is doing with the circle tower system, they've created a system that is metastable at best. 

When (not if) a war breaks out, the balance will shift either towards having basiclaly no mages at all (which is like saying "free eats to the Qunari and Darkspawn), or you will actually make it more likely that mages will as a group say (to borrow from X-Men), "Magneto Was Right" and make mages even less tolerant and less willing to work with mundanes....in which case given the built up and built in antangonisms, I can easily see a situation in time that makes the Tevinter Imperium look like a Sunday Stroll......

The best solution would be to gradually give mages the ability to work in society as productive members of it, but that train has long since left the proverbial station....

-Polaris


Oh, I'm not arguing that, but the genuine problem is that this requires them to have no ability to regulate themselves for problems to show up, basically any independence they have leads to them having more power as an individual, the more ideas they come up with and write down the more all mages become more powerful.

The chantry has actually loosened up a bit if lore is any indictacation but it is also true that they'll irrationally hunt down any mage that tries to go for independence, because of the fear of sharing knowledge with the others who've run away.

I already mentioned that a deus ex weakening of the fade would allow the mages to be independent, less demons and less power means that even if they have the knowledge they can't cast the more destructive spells.

But since that isn't happening it's most just what it is now, the only thing that the chantry could do better is not to shift policy but to better take care of the mages and set up robot templars instead of human ones.

They'd still be jailed though, which is unfortunate. :(

Actually think of the circle towers as racial segregation between jail cells to prevent murder.
This is a horrible idea, but at the time it was the best they could do because of all the inmmates murdering each other.

There has to be a real solution to this, but I can't really think of one, besides somehow issolating the magi by introducing them to villages across the world, where only 1 mage per village would be allowed, when the mage dies inside the village probably loved by the people who were treated or helped by them, the chantry comes by and burns his house down.

Modifié par Falls Edge, 04 février 2011 - 01:09 .


#452
IanPolaris

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Ziggeh wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

True that codex entry doesn't, but other codex entries (History of the Chantry) DO specifically state that the Circle of Mages (as a society) was formed by Drakon I when he unified Orlais in a series of exalted marches.  He did so for the explicit purpose of controlling and regulating mages and magic.  The second blight has zero to do with it which again contradicts the RPG.

He fought the second Blight. I can't find an entry that says it was formed during those marches, do you have a link?


http://dragonage.wik...ntry,_Chapter_4

You should find it here.

-Polaris

#453
LobselVith8

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Ziggeh wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

True that codex entry doesn't, but other codex entries (History of the Chantry) DO specifically state that the Circle of Mages (as a society) was formed by Drakon I when he unified Orlais in a series of exalted marches.  He did so for the explicit purpose of controlling and regulating mages and magic.  The second blight has zero to do with it which again contradicts the RPG.

He fought the second Blight. I can't find an entry that says it was formed during those marches, do you have a link?


History of the Chantry, Part Four:

"There were many converts, including powerful people in the Imperium and in the city-states of what is now Orlais. Such was the power of the Maker's word that the young King Drakon undertook a series of Exalted Marches meant to unite the city-states and create an empire solely dedicated to the Maker's will. The Orlesian Empire became the seat of the Chantry's power, the Grand Cathedral in Val Royeaux the source of the movement that birthed the organized Chantry as we know it today. Drakon, by then Emperor Drakon I, created the Circle of Magi, the Order of Templars and the holy office of the Divine. Many within the Chantry revere him nearly as equal with Andraste herself."

#454
AlexXIV

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Huh. I played circle mage elf and ciry elf origin and I can't say the circle was half as bad as the city elf origin. The only problem I had in the mage elf origin was jowan who turned out to be, among other things, an idiot and a bloodmage. I'd say the circle is an improvement for a city elf. Well with the exception that you are separated from your family, but so do Jedi padawan. I mean ... the circle is worse than rape? I don't think so. Still I am not an apologist or anything, there is certainly alot to improve in the chantry.

#455
PsychoBlonde

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Falls Edge wrote...

But since that isn't happening it's most just what it is now, the only thing that the chantry could do better is not to shift policy but to better take care of the mages and set up robot templars instead of human ones.


I AM TOTALLY IN FAVOR OF ROBOT TEMPLARS.

PB Approves +15

WAIT, SKYNET.

PB Disapproves -15

#456
moilami

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Falls Edge wrote...

moilami wrote...

I have read this full thread and I did not found a single new argument for chantry what I haven't seen before. What chantry apologist say can be summed with one chant:

- mages can kill people and are evil

There is the chant.

I have watched about 100 pages of arguing how mages can kill people and should therefore be killed and treated as cattle. And what are the arguments for it?

- chantry say so
- maker say so
- Wynne say so
- my daddy say so
- I think it is so
- me am sure mages can kill people
- My BF is templar
- lol demons
- mages apparently are dangerous
- lol I want to kill mages
- me hates OP mages in WoW
- mages can mind control
- me have never seen a mage peeing
- mages don't wear armour
- me likes swords
- mages destroy the world (thanks Falls Edge)
- Mages don't have life
- mages MC my momma
- Mages are not people
- Mage did not give **** to me
- Sucks that Morrigan had life
- Sucks Morrigan refused to become mind controlled by me
- me liked Leliana more lol
- me play templar
- I like chantry
- I don't have brains
- they want to go where they want to go (thanks Falls Edge)

There are the arguments. I will laugh for those for some days.


It only takes one bad guy mage to make the world a worse place for everyone. :police:

And we've no shortage of bad guy mages.


Added to the original list, thanks.

Modifié par moilami, 04 février 2011 - 01:41 .


#457
Ziggeh

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IanPolaris wrote...

Ziggeh wrote...
He fought the second Blight. I can't find an entry that says it was formed during those marches, do you have a link?

http://dragonage.wik...ntry,_Chapter_4

You should find it here.

Right, so not during those marches, rather once he was emporer. Easily fits in with the RPG timeline.

#458
LobselVith8

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AlexXIV wrote...

Huh. I played circle mage elf and ciry elf origin and I can't say the circle was half as bad as the city elf origin. The only problem I had in the mage elf origin was jowan who turned out to be, among other things, an idiot and a bloodmage. I'd say the circle is an improvement for a city elf. Well with the exception that you are separated from your family, but so do Jedi padawan. I mean ... the circle is worse than rape? I don't think so. Still I am not an apologist or anything, there is certainly alot to improve in the chantry.


There are a lot more problems than simply being seperated from your family - like having no rights and no say in contesting the Rite of Tranquility or being killed. Even the First Enchanter has no say in the matter and doesn't need to see the "evidence" in question before the Knight-Commander signs the Rite (as Irving saw none of the evidence against Jowan). As for rape and the Circle, those aren't my words. The elven mage Fiona saw her life in the Circle as no better than being the sex slave to an Orlesian noble in Orlais.

#459
tmp7704

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LobselVith8 wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Except we see the effects of Circle life on Keli, who thinks death is what she deserves for being a mage.


Given she's only one who appears to think so, either it's her own, individual belief or the educational process utilized in the Circle is woefully inadequate and has failed for pretty much every other subject.


That must explain that little revolution that happened in DA:O - because evidently only one person was unhappy with life in the Circle. Not to mention the Cumberland meeting regarding breaking free from the Chantry completely.

No, evidently only one person thought she deserved death for being a mage. Which puts into question whether that belief was really effect of living in the Circle.

#460
jhnxsmth

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I think part of the problem is that the Templar's mundane presence is easier to emotionally connect with.

It's hard to imagine demons literally pressing in on your mind, vying for control of you, always present in your thoughts.



Furthermore, the game does a good job of depicting the outside forces the mages face. There's no real way for the game to create a dynamic experience of demon's trying to take over your characters. You aren't going to see gremlins crawling all over your UI, enticing you to pick snarky dialogue options.



For these reasons, it's simply easier to see mages as unreasonably oppressed. So much of what their characters are supposed to represent, is not directly available to gameplay.

#461
LobselVith8

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PsychoBlonde wrote...

Falls Edge wrote...

But since that isn't happening it's most just what it is now, the only thing that the chantry could do better is not to shift policy but to better take care of the mages and set up robot templars instead of human ones.


I AM TOTALLY IN FAVOR OF ROBOT TEMPLARS.

PB Approves +15

WAIT, SKYNET.

PB Disapproves -15


Don't forget, Templar Cybermen versus the Daleks...

#462
tmp7704

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IanPolaris wrote...

When life in an organization is not considered a step up from being an involuntary sex-slave, then there is a problem doncha think?

It may be a problem caused by simplification of her entire life down to this single subject. Because clearly, that's all what matters and what one would choose to solely remember and refer to as "her previous life".

#463
AlexXIV

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LobselVith8 wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Huh. I played circle mage elf and ciry elf origin and I can't say the circle was half as bad as the city elf origin. The only problem I had in the mage elf origin was jowan who turned out to be, among other things, an idiot and a bloodmage. I'd say the circle is an improvement for a city elf. Well with the exception that you are separated from your family, but so do Jedi padawan. I mean ... the circle is worse than rape? I don't think so. Still I am not an apologist or anything, there is certainly alot to improve in the chantry.


There are a lot more problems than simply being seperated from your family - like having no rights and no say in contesting the Rite of Tranquility or being killed. Even the First Enchanter has no say in the matter and doesn't need to see the "evidence" in question before the Knight-Commander signs the Rite (as Irving saw none of the evidence against Jowan). As for rape and the Circle, those aren't my words. The elven mage Fiona saw her life in the Circle as no better than being the sex slave to an Orlesian noble in Orlais.


Tbh I don't know why they make people tranquil. They should just let them make the harrowing and chop their heads off if they get possessed. Why exactly they would prevent mages from taking the harrowing and instead making them tranquil is beyond me. Unless it is the mages' choice to be made tranquil instead of the harrowing.

#464
SgtElias

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LobselVith8 wrote...

PsychoBlonde wrote...

Falls Edge wrote...

But since that isn't happening it's most just what it is now, the only thing that the chantry could do better is not to shift policy but to better take care of the mages and set up robot templars instead of human ones.


I AM TOTALLY IN FAVOR OF ROBOT TEMPLARS.

PB Approves +15

WAIT, SKYNET.

PB Disapproves -15


Don't forget, Templar Cybermen versus the Daleks...


Hey, the last time the Cybermen fought the Daleks, the world ALMOST ENDED and a bunch of peeps got stuck in an alternate dimension.

Let's not be crazy, here. :blink:

#465
IanPolaris

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Ziggeh wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Ziggeh wrote...
He fought the second Blight. I can't find an entry that says it was formed during those marches, do you have a link?

http://dragonage.wik...ntry,_Chapter_4

You should find it here.

Right, so not during those marches, rather once he was emporer. Easily fits in with the RPG timeline.


If that were the only conflict then perhaps, but multiple codex and ingame evidence directly contradicts what the RPG is saying.  Canonically, the original source material (even if it's a video game) takes precedence at least for this discussion (as always what you do at your table is another matter). 

-Polaris

#466
LobselVith8

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tmp7704 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

That must explain that little revolution that happened in DA:O - because evidently only one person was unhappy with life in the Circle. Not to mention the Cumberland meeting regarding breaking free from the Chantry completely.


No, evidently only one person thought she deserved death for being a mage. Which puts into question whether that belief was really effect of living in the Circle.


Except we know from the comments made by the Reverend Mother in Redcliffe (to a human mage, as an elven mage gets the elven response instead) and by Wynne about how people in Andrastian societies blame mages when things go back (clearly different than the mage tolerant societies of Rivain, the Chasind, and the Dalish) and even the Revered Mother makes a reference to not letting a mob go after the Magi Warden... so why assume that Keli's views that she deserves death are not contributed to being in a Chantry controlled prison where templars speak the same "mages caused the Blights" and "magic is a curse" that's echoed by the Andrastian Chantry?

#467
SgtElias

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AlexXIV wrote...


Tbh I don't know why they make people tranquil. They should just let them make the harrowing and chop their heads off if they get possessed. Why exactly they would prevent mages from taking the harrowing and instead making them tranquil is beyond me. Unless it is the mages' choice to be made tranquil instead of the harrowing.


I think it is sometimes, actually. I was under the impression that some mages were allowed to choose to become tranquil rather than undertake their Harrowing.

I could, of course, be mistaken.

Edited to say: As to the question posed by the OP, yes. Some people likes mages. I like them. A lot. A lot a lot.

Modifié par SgtElias, 04 février 2011 - 01:22 .


#468
Ziggeh

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AlexXIV wrote...

Tbh I don't know why they make people tranquil. They should just let them make the harrowing and chop their heads off if they get possessed. Why exactly they would prevent mages from taking the harrowing and instead making them tranquil is beyond me. Unless it is the mages' choice to be made tranquil instead of the harrowing.

They need them to play with lyrium.

#469
IanPolaris

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AlexXIV wrote...
Tbh I don't know why they make people tranquil. They should just let them make the harrowing and chop their heads off if they get possessed. Why exactly they would prevent mages from taking the harrowing and instead making them tranquil is beyond me. Unless it is the mages' choice to be made tranquil instead of the harrowing.


According to Anders (and there is no reason he'd lie about it and as a spirit healer he should know), it's because Tranquility and Harrowing is an either/or process.  Either by law or by nature (and the game is unclear which it is), if you've been harrowed you can not be made tranquil (and obviously vice versa).

-Polaris

#470
PsychoBlonde

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SgtElias wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

PsychoBlonde wrote...

Falls Edge wrote...

But since that isn't happening it's most just what it is now, the only thing that the chantry could do better is not to shift policy but to better take care of the mages and set up robot templars instead of human ones.


I AM TOTALLY IN FAVOR OF ROBOT TEMPLARS.

PB Approves +15

WAIT, SKYNET.

PB Disapproves -15


Don't forget, Templar Cybermen versus the Daleks...


Hey, the last time the Cybermen fought the Daleks, the world ALMOST ENDED and a bunch of peeps got stuck in an alternate dimension.

Let's not be crazy, here. :blink:


MISTER ANDERSON . . .

#471
AlexXIV

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SgtElias wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...


Tbh I don't know why they make people tranquil. They should just let them make the harrowing and chop their heads off if they get possessed. Why exactly they would prevent mages from taking the harrowing and instead making them tranquil is beyond me. Unless it is the mages' choice to be made tranquil instead of the harrowing.


I think it is sometimes, actually. I was under the impression that some mages were allowed to choose to become tranquil rather than undertake their Harrowing.

I could, of course, be mistaken.

Yes, but Jowan at least thought he would be made tranquil against his will, and he was not allowed to take the harrowing.

@Ziggeh ... well that would be slavery, no?

#472
IanPolaris

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SgtElias wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...


Tbh I don't know why they make people tranquil. They should just let them make the harrowing and chop their heads off if they get possessed. Why exactly they would prevent mages from taking the harrowing and instead making them tranquil is beyond me. Unless it is the mages' choice to be made tranquil instead of the harrowing.


I think it is sometimes, actually. I was under the impression that some mages were allowed to choose to become tranquil rather than undertake their Harrowing.

I could, of course, be mistaken.


You aren't.  The game several times explicitly mentions that some mages voluntarily undergo tranquility because they are afraid of the harrowing.  Orwain says so himself when you ask him about it.

I actually have few problems with this (other than I regard the Harrowing itself as borderline criminal).  It's the fact that mages can be made tranquil against their will that I have serious issues with.

-Polaris

#473
LobselVith8

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AlexXIV wrote...

SgtElias wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...


Tbh I don't know why they make people tranquil. They should just let them make the harrowing and chop their heads off if they get possessed. Why exactly they would prevent mages from taking the harrowing and instead making them tranquil is beyond me. Unless it is the mages' choice to be made tranquil instead of the harrowing.


I think it is sometimes, actually. I was under the impression that some mages were allowed to choose to become tranquil rather than undertake their Harrowing.

I could, of course, be mistaken.

Yes, but Jowan at least thought he would be made tranquil against his will, and he was not allowed to take the harrowing.

@Ziggeh ... well that would be slavery, no?


Seems like a lucrative reason to make mages tranquil, to craft magical items and fill the coffers...

#474
SgtElias

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AlexXIV wrote...

SgtElias wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...


Tbh I don't know why they make people tranquil. They should just let them make the harrowing and chop their heads off if they get possessed. Why exactly they would prevent mages from taking the harrowing and instead making them tranquil is beyond me. Unless it is the mages' choice to be made tranquil instead of the harrowing.


I think it is sometimes, actually. I was under the impression that some mages were allowed to choose to become tranquil rather than undertake their Harrowing.

I could, of course, be mistaken.

Yes, but Jowan at least thought he would be made tranquil against his will, and he was not allowed to take the harrowing.

@Ziggeh ... well that would be slavery, no?


I didn't say that was the only way that someone could be made Tranquil. Just that it was an option for mages who didn't believe they would survive their Harrowing.

Modifié par SgtElias, 04 février 2011 - 01:24 .


#475
moilami

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PsychoBlonde wrote...

SgtElias wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

PsychoBlonde wrote...

Falls Edge wrote...

But since that isn't happening it's most just what it is now, the only thing that the chantry could do better is not to shift policy but to better take care of the mages and set up robot templars instead of human ones.


I AM TOTALLY IN FAVOR OF ROBOT TEMPLARS.

PB Approves +15

WAIT, SKYNET.

PB Disapproves -15


Don't forget, Templar Cybermen versus the Daleks...


Hey, the last time the Cybermen fought the Daleks, the world ALMOST ENDED and a bunch of peeps got stuck in an alternate dimension.

Let's not be crazy, here. :blink:


MISTER ANDERSON . . .


Is that Cybermen versus the Daleks chantry apologist argument?