1283 réponses à ce sujet

[tmp7704]

LobselVith8 wrote...

so why assume that Keli's views that she deserves death are not contributed to being in a Chantry controlled prison where templars speak the same "mages caused the Blights" and "magic is a curse" that's echoed by the Andrastian Chantry?

Because all other mages in the Circle has been under the same conditions, yet don't display the same mindset or anything even close to it. So no matter how you cut it, she's an exception which puts into question just how much impact that allegedly oppressive environment really has on these it's supposed to affect so negatively.

[Ziggeh]

IanPolaris wrote...
If that were the only conflict then perhaps, but multiple codex and ingame evidence directly contradicts what the RPG is saying.

Haven't found a codex entry yet that does. Been a while since I played the game so I can't say much about events there, but no ones actually mentioned any that do yet.

[PsychoBlonde]

moilami wrote...

PsychoBlonde wrote...

SgtElias wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

PsychoBlonde wrote...

Falls Edge wrote...

But since that isn't happening it's most just what it is now, the only thing that the chantry could do better is not to shift policy but to better take care of the mages and set up robot templars instead of human ones.

I AM TOTALLY IN FAVOR OF ROBOT TEMPLARS.

PB Approves +15

WAIT, SKYNET.

PB Disapproves -15

Don't forget, Templar Cybermen versus the Daleks...

Hey, the last time the Cybermen fought the Daleks, the world ALMOST ENDED and a bunch of peeps got stuck in an alternate dimension.

Let's not be crazy, here.

MISTER ANDERSON . . .

Is that Cybermen versus the Daleks chantry apologist argument?

No, it's a Cybermen versus the Daleks in the Matrix run by Templar Agents argument.  Too obscure?

[PsychoBlonde]

OMG THEDAS IS THE MATRIX THE FADE IS THE REAL WORLD SPREAD THE WORD.

[Eveangaline]

I'd say one of the worst parts of the circle is that mages aren't allowed to have famillies. Wynns baby was kidnapped from her, and it was totally allowed.

[A Turkey Frog]

IMO mages are by far the funnest class to play as in any game that has them. Nothing like completily controlling the battlefield.

[Ziggeh]

AlexXIV wrote...

@Ziggeh ... well that would be slavery, no?

Mmmm, well, that's complicated, because if you ask the guy afterwards he'd probably say no. It's certainly not a happy set of circumstances, but I think it's a more complex question that equalling slavery.

[PsychoBlonde]

THE THEDAS HAS YOU . . .



Okay, okay, I'll stop ouch stop throwing things. Sorry.

[Falls Edge]

Zavox wrote...

Falls Edge wrote...

Zavox wrote...

Hmm? I seriously can't see how there can be a discussion on this subject...

Sure, mages are more likely to be the cause of destruction than a regular person is. Yet, that doesn't mean one should lock up ALL mages. It'd be the same in nowadays society to lock up a certain population group based on numbers that show they have a higher crime rate than average. One should not convict an entire population group based on the wrong doings of certain members of that group. Because if you do, you're convicting persons to exile who might never do anything wrong. It's convicting because of genetics, not on intent or action.

Edit: bad example, what I mean is that as mages stand now they're relatively harmless, but it's been shown that if they were allowed to build themselves up they could lord it over everyone else, and only other mages could stop them.

One example in history (Tevinter Imperium) hardly shows evidence that such is so. Besides, they were toppled. Also, nor does it give evidence that mages can only be stopped by other mages, I even beg to differ as Templars can definately defeat mages. Even if one needs 10 men to defeat 1 mage, there's only so much mages. Definately less than 10% seems to be a mage.

Zavox the ones that the templars are taking down are the culturally weak, dumbed down mages that the chantry has tried so hard to create, notice that morrigan and her mother had no problem killing templars.

Also, you don't even need the historical precedent to see how the mages have acted, quite a few have resented the position they've found themselves in, and they've all made different decisions some have chosen the peaceful route(peaceful secession), others have decided to hate themselves because of religious scripture, others have run and escaped the tower, turning either toward evil/forbidden magic, or leading lives on the run to ensure that they'll never gain in power or establish themselves in the world.

Other mages have chosen pacts with demons attempting to become powerful enough to drive off the shackles of the templars, to be 'immune' from the fear that they feel towards them, a lot of the mages are afraid and some want to be individually so powerful that no one can take them away from their homes again, they want to go where they want to go, they're susceptible to demon's because of these insecurities and weaknesses like other people, except they can use fireballs in THEIR WEAKENED state.

It's just kind of complicated I guess, good writing.

Modifié par Falls Edge, 04 février 2011 - 01:31 .

[IanPolaris]

tmp7704 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

so why assume that Keli's views that she deserves death are not contributed to being in a Chantry controlled prison where templars speak the same "mages caused the Blights" and "magic is a curse" that's echoed by the Andrastian Chantry?

Because all other mages in the Circle has been under the same conditions, yet don't display the same mindset or anything even close to it. So no matter how you cut it, she's an exception which puts into question just how much impact that allegedly oppressive environment really has on these it's supposed to affect so negatively.

Consider that there is an entire Fraternity of Enchanters called "The Loyalists" whom Senior Enchanter Tomas distainfully regards as Chantry Apologists.  Given that *Wynne* of all people is supposed to be an Aequitarian, I think it's safe to say that there is a significant portion of mages like Keli that have been trained to self-hate at least if she is any example of the Loyalist Fraternity.  That's some guesswork on my part, I grant, but I think it's reasonable guesswork.

-Polaris

[AlexXIV]

SgtElias wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

SgtElias wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...


Tbh I don't know why they make people tranquil. They should just let them make the harrowing and chop their heads off if they get possessed. Why exactly they would prevent mages from taking the harrowing and instead making them tranquil is beyond me. Unless it is the mages' choice to be made tranquil instead of the harrowing.

I think it is sometimes, actually. I was under the impression that some mages were allowed to choose to become tranquil rather than undertake their Harrowing.

I could, of course, be mistaken.

Yes, but Jowan at least thought he would be made tranquil against his will, and he was not allowed to take the harrowing.

@Ziggeh ... well that would be slavery, no?

I didn't say that was the only way that someone could be made Tranquil. Just that it was an option for mages who didn't believe they would survive their Harrowing.

Yes but what disturbs me is the act of forcing them to become tranquil. I wouldn't know how to excuse that. I mean if you put them in the harrowing and give them a chance to resist the demons is at least a chance. But telling someone he can't make the harrowing and is getting made a tranquil whether he likes it or not seems to be too much for me to overlook. Expecially because personally I'd rather be killed than made tranquil. Without emotion you are not much more than a robot of flesh and blood. I just never been sure whether Jowan was exaggerating or really going to be made tranquil or if the circle actually knew or suspected him to be a bloodmage.

[tmp7704]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

I AM TOTALLY IN FAVOR OF ROBOT TEMPLARS.

Best not to head there. There's very little needed to make mental jump from robot templars to robot Alicorn.

[Collider]

You know, it may be been nice to have been treated more differently while playing as a mage warden.

[LobselVith8]

tmp7704 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

so why assume that Keli's views that she deserves death are not contributed to being in a Chantry controlled prison where templars speak the same "mages caused the Blights" and "magic is a curse" that's echoed by the Andrastian Chantry?

Because all other mages in the Circle has been under the same conditions, yet don't display the same mindset or anything even close to it. So no matter how you cut it, she's an exception which puts into question just how much impact that allegedly oppressive environment really has on these it's supposed to affect so negatively.

Allegedly oppressive? Having no rights and having no power to contest being given a lobotomy or killed doesn't exactly sound like a paradise to me.

[SgtElias]

Eveangaline wrote...

I'd say one of the worst parts of the circle is that mages aren't allowed to have famillies. Wynns baby was kidnapped from her, and it was totally allowed.

Agreed. If that was me trapped in there, it would probably have been the end of me; I'm pretty sure I would have been executed for all the things I did afterward trying to get my baby back.

That was the moment in-game where I turned from being Chantry-sympathetic to wanting to torch the whole organization and everyone in it.

. . . I have since come back toward the middle a tad.

[IanPolaris]

Eveangaline wrote...

I'd say one of the worst parts of the circle is that mages aren't allowed to have famillies. Wynns baby was kidnapped from her, and it was totally allowed.

It's actually even worse than that.  In many circles, Mages aren't allowed to have any kind of relationship without explicit permission let alone have and keep their children.

-Polaris

[AlexXIV]

Ziggeh wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

@Ziggeh ... well that would be slavery, no?

Mmmm, well, that's complicated, because if you ask the guy afterwards he'd probably say no. It's certainly not a happy set of circumstances, but I think it's a more complex question that equalling slavery.

Actually if I think about it, it is worse than slavery. Because you know, slaves can be set free. I doubt you can untranquil a tranquil.

[Falls Edge]

Eveangaline wrote...

I'd say one of the worst parts of the circle is that mages aren't allowed to have famillies. Wynns baby was kidnapped from her, and it was totally allowed.

Wut. I missed this dialogue option...? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

[moilami]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

moilami wrote...

PsychoBlonde wrote...

SgtElias wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

PsychoBlonde wrote...

Falls Edge wrote...

But since that isn't happening it's most just what it is now, the only thing that the chantry could do better is not to shift policy but to better take care of the mages and set up robot templars instead of human ones.

I AM TOTALLY IN FAVOR OF ROBOT TEMPLARS.

PB Approves +15

WAIT, SKYNET.

PB Disapproves -15

Don't forget, Templar Cybermen versus the Daleks...

Hey, the last time the Cybermen fought the Daleks, the world ALMOST ENDED and a bunch of peeps got stuck in an alternate dimension.

Let's not be crazy, here.

MISTER ANDERSON . . .

Is that Cybermen versus the Daleks chantry apologist argument?

No, it's a Cybermen versus the Daleks in the Matrix run by Templar Agents argument.  Too obscure?

Added it to the argument list.

I had no idea what was the stuff and did not bother to check the original argument from the pyramid. Now I tracked the original argument which was "set up robot templars instead of human ones".

Modifié par moilami, 04 février 2011 - 01:32 .

[PsychoBlonde]

Falls Edge wrote...

Eveangaline wrote...

I'd say one of the worst parts of the circle is that mages aren't allowed to have famillies. Wynns baby was kidnapped from her, and it was totally allowed.

Wut. I missed this dialogue option...? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

It's a banter between Wynne and Alistair, it only happens if you hit a banter trigger with both of them in the party.

[LobselVith8]

Ziggeh wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
If that were the only conflict then perhaps, but multiple codex and ingame evidence directly contradicts what the RPG is saying.

Haven't found a codex entry yet that does. Been a while since I played the game so I can't say much about events there, but no ones actually mentioned any that do yet.

History of Circle codex (mages were segregated because of a nonviolent protest) and The History of Chantry: Part Four (where the first Orlesian Emperor created the Circle of Magi, the Order of Templars, and the Chantry of Andraste).

[Eveangaline]

Falls Edge wrote...

Eveangaline wrote...

I'd say one of the worst parts of the circle is that mages aren't allowed to have famillies. Wynns baby was kidnapped from her, and it was totally allowed.

Wut. I missed this dialogue option...? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

It was a side conversation she had with Alistair, she mentioned she had a son who would be his age, but because she was a mage he was taken away by the chantry when he was born. She mentions hoping her son turned out as well as Alistair.

[PsychoBlonde]

AlexXIV wrote...

Ziggeh wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

@Ziggeh ... well that would be slavery, no?

Mmmm, well, that's complicated, because if you ask the guy afterwards he'd probably say no. It's certainly not a happy set of circumstances, but I think it's a more complex question that equalling slavery.

Actually if I think about it, it is worse than slavery. Because you know, slaves can be set free. I doubt you can untranquil a tranquil.

No, but you could give them a sex change operation which would hopefully . . . um . . .

Okay, I've totally forgotten where I was going with this.  Something about a man trapped in a woman's body.  Clearly I need to eat and chill out before my attempts at lame jokes summon the Woo with the Hammer.

[IanPolaris]

Ziggeh wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

@Ziggeh ... well that would be slavery, no?

Mmmm, well, that's complicated, because if you ask the guy afterwards he'd probably say no. It's certainly not a happy set of circumstances, but I think it's a more complex question that equalling slavery.

The problem is by removing all emotions, you completely remove the context in which decisions and thus moral decisions are made which makes free-will essentially meaningless (Hume goes into this in some of his works).  Given that, the Tranquil afterwords is no longer able to answer the question in a meaningful way, because his effective free will has been removed (because he no longer has a context to excercise that will).

That's part of what's so horrifying about tranquility as even Lily (who hates magic) explains and explains very well.

-Polaris

[tmp7704]

SgtElias wrote...

Eveangaline wrote...

I'd say one of the worst parts of the circle is that mages aren't allowed to have famillies. Wynns baby was kidnapped from her, and it was totally allowed.

Agreed. If that was me trapped in there, it would probably have been the end of me; I'm pretty sure I would have been executed for all the things I did afterward trying to get my baby back.

That was the moment in-game where I turned from being Chantry-sympathetic to wanting to torch the whole organization and everyone in it.
. . . I have since come back toward the middle a tad.

Can't remember where it was said, but think it was Mr.Gaider that pointed out large part of that is the concept that family members are sort of easiest way to manipulate a mage, by a demon or such -- just as much as you'd do anything to get your baby back, your baby would likely do everything to save you from danger. Even if say, that "anything" involved allowing self to get possessed.