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[Lotion Soronarr]

You know what I find funny..



The people keep bashing the Chantry and the templars and the Circle system.



And the Lead Writer DG, occasionally pops up, to try and set things straight, constantly remaining people that the Chantry isn't as evil as some think/want it to be.



But there's no reasoning with some people. They'll rather argue with the author than accept the reality of the setting.

I pitty you people....

[Dave of Canada]

RiskyRannis wrote...

The thing is that in the case of Jowan we see that the templars can essentially lobotomize a mage against their will.

It's not only a templar that decides when a mage is made tranquil though, Irving has to approve of it and even then they mention that they had witnesses of Jowan using blood magic. It's a decision that was done for the good of all by even the Circle, templar or no.

I'm a certain an independent Circle would do the same.

Furthermore, during the Broken circle quest we come across a codex entry that lists a series of letters of one senior mage trying to teach his students to combat swords. The result is that he gets suspended by the senior enchanter in what looks like an act done at the beset of the templars.

Can't find this codex entry on the wikia. What section is it in?

[nightcobra]

Dave of Canada wrote...

RiskyRannis wrote...

The thing is that in the case of Jowan we see that the templars can essentially lobotomize a mage against their will.

It's not only a templar that decides when a mage is made tranquil though, Irving has to approve of it and even then they mention that they had witnesses of Jowan using blood magic. It's a decision that was done for the good of all by even the Circle, templar or no.

I'm a certain an independent Circle would do the same.

Furthermore, during the Broken circle quest we come across a codex entry that lists a series of letters of one senior mage trying to teach his students to combat swords. The result is that he gets suspended by the senior enchanter in what looks like an act done at the beset of the templars.

Can't find this codex entry on the wikia. What section is it in?

i think it's this one

http://dragonage.wik...ricular_Studies

[Dave of Canada]

Maybe it's just me but that seems like what happened to my gym teacher when school was cutting back on some courses. We even have armored knights show up and take him away.

[DaneWolf]

I like SOME mages.... Morrigan... Yes... Wynne... Not so mutch no... You see.. Wynne never stops preaching,.. It's annoying!!! And what reagards the class... OFFCOURSE i like mages!!! Magi's are awesome in every way!!!

[GodWood]

Dave of Canada wrote...
There's no 1:1 comparison to mages in real life, it would be foolish to find one but I'll try to give a hypothetical situation using the guy with guns + molotovs and stuff vs police officers example that people seem to love using.

A mage has a lot of firepower behind his / her hands, enough that should they go crazy they'd be extremely powerful and easily be capable of dealing a lot of damage. People bring up police officers as a comparison to templar but that isn't that strong of an idea because templar don't have equal firepower to the mage, they have a sword and the ability to probably nullify / stop some of the mage's weaponry.

While it is possible for a regular average joe to stop the mage, it's unlikey to happen unless the mage is caught off guard or ran out of firepower. The most likely situation would be that the mage would kill him and anybody who'd try to stop them, how can the average citizen deal with it?

This is excluding the abilities of mind control, shielding, healing, summoning, freezing, and whatever else a mage has in their repertoire. A mage that throws fireballs all over the place is one of the most dangerous things on Thedas for everybody, including Templar who are trained to stop them (though a fireball casting mage would most likely be killed easier than one who mixes spells up). Now what happens when a mage goes crazy in a group? The destruction increases, the chances of people being able to stop them are lowered and they become a much greater threat.

This is all about the powers of a mage, I haven't even brought demons into it. Mages struggle against demons that will try to possess them, these demons increase the mage's powers and the mage can probably corrupt other individuals and turn them into abominations too.

A lone desire demon abomination possessing a kid that can barely cast magic nearly destroyed (or successfully destroyed) Redcliffe, killed an entire castle filled with armed guards and mind controlled surviving guards (and Bann Teagan) to do it's bidding. That alone should prove that mages are dangerous, though that isn't enough right?

What if instead of it being a simple mage child, the abomination would be the King of Ferelden? What if the King became like the Baroness but on a much larger scale?  You'd have a lot of problems, from small to gigantic depending on how long it took for people to find out that the King was possessed.

Gaider even gave a few examples about what happens if Dalish / Rivaini / Chasind--the cultures that are said as "abominationless" by the pro-mages group-- get possessed, "they suffer and deal with it". I doubt the large majority of the non-mages would want to have ticking time bombs walking around, especially when not having today's morals that are often dragged into these discussions.

Hell, the "prison" that is the Circle of Magi isn't even all that bad. The people are allowed to be visited by their family members, they get free shelter, are raised in how to use their magic correctly, can marry (with permission) and are allowed to leave once they've completed their training if Finn is any evidence. I was surprised when Finn was like "alright, let's go." and I didn't even need to talk to the Templar to get permission to leave.

The Circle feels more like one gigantic boarding school rather than a prison to me, as the individual can still do as he / she pleases provided they come back to "school" and ask the "teachers" permission for stuff.

And let's be honest here, Mages wouldn't have a fun life outside of the Circle Tower. Wynne herself says that for every mage that arrives to the Circle, some don't even survive to get there because they were killed by people who blamed them for something. Hell, they'd probably be treated worse than the Alienage Elves who have their homes burned down by humans.

I won't even bring up the implications of the Broken Circle quest happening somewhere public instead of an isolated community where nobody else resides.

Excellent post

[KawaiiKatie]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
And the Lead Writer DG, occasionally pops up, to try and set things straight, constantly remaining people that the Chantry isn't as evil as some think/want it to be.

Oh man, you know how you go through the mage origin, and you have to crawl through the Circle Tower basement in order to find the phylactry chamber? And how there's all those cages filled with skeletons and shackles and the ghosts of headless mages?

I want to know what that's about. And the Chantry's excuse for it. Because it really creeps the heck out of me.

I kind of always thought that the "point" of playing the mage origin was to show that Templar presense in the Tower was causing more problems than it solved. I thought that a Mage Warden's journey really heavily underscored that "there has to be a better way." This is underscored several times when you talk to Wynne, or to Aneirin, everyone says "You could change things for the Circle!" And then you get the Boon at the end, and hey, you can make things better for the Circle! Yay!

But I heard it said that the Chantry denies the Mage Warden's request? That's so disappointing. After everyone my mage talked to, after everything my mage has seen about the treatment all mages, there has to be a better way. For everyone. Mages and Templars--everyone. Because there's been wrongs on both sides. Something has to change.

Modifié par KawaiiKatie, 04 février 2011 - 09:46 .

[Nashiktal]

I'd reserve judgement until we either see another mage tower, or one of the nations who practice society with free mages.



Right now all we have is one tower operating in a country just recovered from a civil war and is still getting its internal works together, gameplay (which isnt 100% set in stone.), and scraps of codex entries to tell us whats going on in the world.



The world of Thedas is still a work in progress. Who knows, mages might be the next thermal clip.

[Balitant]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

You know what I find funny..

The people keep bashing the Chantry and the templars and the Circle system.

And the Lead Writer DG, occasionally pops up, to try and set things straight, constantly remaining people that the Chantry isn't as evil as some think/want it to be.

But there's no reasoning with some people. They'll rather argue with the author than accept the reality of the setting.
I pitty you people....

I have seen your posts in other threads and  I just have to say.... the author is not nessecarily on your side just because you have the ability to interpret what he says that way. In the form of discourse there is merit for two arguements to coalesce. I am not arguing nor disputing anything with the author, nor am I arguing anything with you. So please keep your pity to yourself.

Dave of Canada wrote...

Maybe it's just me but that seems like what happened to my gym teacher when school was cutting back on
some courses. We even have armored knights show up and take him away.

I was going to link that in my original post, but I couldn't find it anywhere. It's nothing damning against the Templars, but the mage did offer to do everything himself (finance and his own space). It's just suspicious thats all.

Modifié par RiskyRannis, 04 février 2011 - 09:43 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

RiskyRannis wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

You know what I find funny..

The people keep bashing the Chantry and the templars and the Circle system.

And the Lead Writer DG, occasionally pops up, to try and set things straight, constantly remaining people that the Chantry isn't as evil as some think/want it to be.

But there's no reasoning with some people. They'll rather argue with the author than accept the reality of the setting.
I pitty you people....

I have seen your posts in other threads and  I just have to say.... the author is not nessecarily on your side just because you have the ability to interpret what he says that way. In the form of discourse there is merit for two arguements to coalesce. I am not arguing nor disputing anything with the author, nor am I arguing anything with you. So please keep your pity to yourself.

Well, if you do not argue with the authors, then why do you feel you're referenced by my post?

This is aimed at those who do argue with the author, despite being obvious they're wrong. There's really not much to interpret there.

[IanPolaris]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Well, if you do not argue with the authors, then why do you feel you're referenced by my post?

This is aimed at those who do argue with the author, despite being obvious they're wrong. There's really not much to interpret there.

I will explain it to you.  You do not have the one true way of reading and interpreting DG's posts no matter how much you try to claim otherwise.  In fact DG says very little when you actually examine what he posts carefully and he's always left both sides of this argument open.  Always.

-Polaris

[Lotion Soronarr]

IanPolaris wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Well, if you do not argue with the authors, then why do you feel you're referenced by my post?

This is aimed at those who do argue with the author, despite being obvious they're wrong. There's really not much to interpret there.

I will explain it to you.  You do not have the one true way of reading and interpreting DG's posts no matter how much you try to claim otherwise.  In fact DG says very little when you actually examine what he posts carefully and he's always left both sides of this argument open.  Always.

-Polaris

You can try to cloud the issue as muhc as you want, but it's damn clear what the man said. You just cannot let go of your theories.

Let's see waht he said, shall we?

David Gaider wrote...

Alodar wrote...
If a group
of people existed in todays supposedly educated society that had these
abilites, those modern mages would be controlled/locked up/persecuted
without thought.

There is no question it is 100% reasonable for ordinary folks to want mages locked up or killed.

Indeed.
The reason the "templars are bad" view is so prevalent is because most
of us live in cushy western societies where anything that smells like
oppression is Very Bad, and the only determining factor in how one
should treat mages is how fair that treatment is. Of course, we don't
have to live with the idea that Poor Oppressed Joe living next door to
us might be secretly controlling our mind to make us like him-- or one
day turn into a monster and kill our entire family-- but that doesn't
need to stop us from being idealistic in our fantasy worlds, now, does
it? ../../../images/forum/emoticons/wink.png

Here..he pretty much confirms it reasonable and undersantable for people to fear mages and consider imprisoning them a good idea. No Chatnry "propaganda" needed.
This undermines your whole "people wouldn't fear mages without the Chantry" argument.

David Gaider wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
But
while we see that was done with the Andrastian societies, don't we see
and read that there are alternatives to what the templars and
Chantry are doing to mages - the nation of Rivain, the Dalish clans, the
Chasind.

They exist without controlling mages. Meaning
that if a mage turns into an abomination and causes destruction, or
otherwise causes problems, they simply suffer and deal with it. I don't
think it's a stretch to suggest that not everyone is going to consider
that a viable alternative.

Here. Try to twist this if you can. No real abomination prevention of confinment.
And this also compeltely undermined your "interpretation" of DG's pervious post about early Thedas history (pre-circle), where he basicly said the very same thing.

David Gaider wrote...

The Dales and Arlathan were also two
nations that had mages. Possibly even the town of Haven, given Kolgrim's
attack of the Chantry's views on "forbidden magic" and Father Eirik
presiding over the Haven Chantry and he was a mage. Doesn't this
illustrate that we can question the validity of what the Chantry is
doing with their templars, and how effective it is?

Based
on what? You know nothing about how the Dales and ancient Arlathan
dealt with magic. And I'm not sure that citing a village full of
religious zealots that drank the blood of dragons and killed all
strangers that came upon them is a particularly good example of "why
mages aren't bad".

And again...


Should I go on?

Why is DG constantly coming in and shooting down you and Lob? How come he never came in and shot down JK or me? Could it be because we didn't talk smack?
Accept you were wrong and move on.

[Balitant]

IanPolaris wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Well, if you do not argue with the authors, then why do you feel you're referenced by my post?

This is aimed at those who do argue with the author, despite being obvious they're wrong. There's really not much to interpret there.

I will explain it to you.  You do not have the one true way of reading and interpreting DG's posts no matter how much you try to claim otherwise.  In fact DG says very little when you actually examine what he posts carefully and he's always left both sides of this argument open.  Always.

-Polaris

I do appreciate you trying to explain it to him, but like I said... I have no intention of engaging with him in any form of argument (not the negative kind which I assume he thinks I mean, but an actual reasoned argument) because there is no merit in spending hours listening to something without substance.

Those that I was responding to earlier are all seemingly gone anyway...plus its too late anyway.

Modifié par RiskyRannis, 04 février 2011 - 10:45 .

[FDrage]

Mages ? ... aren't those the people that can fry your skin and melt your brain within the blink of an eye ?

Keep them locked up in their towers and let then prove that they aren't a danger to normal folks .. Templars do a vital and important policing job as you can't trust mages to police themselves. Granted who polices the templars .. hmm ... it ios for the best of the common folks anyway. So go ahead

[AlexXIV]

David Gaider wrote...

Alodar wrote...
If a group
of people existed in todays supposedly educated society that had these
abilites, those modern mages would be controlled/locked up/persecuted
without thought.

There is no question it is 100% reasonable for ordinary folks to want mages locked up or killed.

Indeed.
The reason the "templars are bad" view is so prevalent is because most
of us live in cushy western societies where anything that smells like
oppression is Very Bad, and the only determining factor in how one
should treat mages is how fair that treatment is. Of course, we don't
have to live with the idea that Poor Oppressed Joe living next door to
us might be secretly controlling our mind to make us like him-- or one
day turn into a monster and kill our entire family-- but that doesn't
need to stop us from being idealistic in our fantasy worlds, now, does
it? ../../../images/forum/emoticons/wink.png

I would like to know how you interprete the bold part. I guess not in 'It's a fantasy world and you are allowed to be idealistic in fantasy worlds.' I know you guys are in the 'realism league' in more aspects of the game, but it is still a fantasy game.

David Gaider wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
But
while we see that was done with the Andrastian societies, don't we see
and read that there are alternatives to what the templars and
Chantry are doing to mages - the nation of Rivain, the Dalish clans, the
Chasind.

They exist without controlling mages. Meaning
that if a mage turns into an abomination and causes destruction, or
otherwise causes problems, they simply suffer and deal with it. I don't
think it's a stretch to suggest that not everyone is going to consider
that a viable alternative.

Again bold part. He basically only says people will have different opinions. The Chasind and the Dalish obviously consider it a viable alternative though. And so did people before the Chantry. And I personally don't see it a problem unless something like in the TI happens again. If you remember, abominations also went on a killing spree in the circle tower so it isn't much saver. It is just saver for the commoner because it happens in a place far away. But for the innocent mages it isn't as nice I assure you.

David Gaider wrote...

The Dales and Arlathan were also two
nations that had mages. Possibly even the town of Haven, given Kolgrim's
attack of the Chantry's views on "forbidden magic" and Father Eirik
presiding over the Haven Chantry and he was a mage. Doesn't this
illustrate that we can question the validity of what the Chantry is
doing with their templars, and how effective it is?

Based
on what? You know nothing about how the Dales and ancient Arlathan
dealt with magic. And I'm not sure that citing a village full of
religious zealots that drank the blood of dragons and killed all
strangers that came upon them is a particularly good example of "why
mages aren't bad".

This is not even related to the Chantry or Circle. He says we know nothing about Arlathan which is true and thus Arlathan is no proof of anything. And Haven is just a bad example if you are supporting either mages or religious cults, since they are ... a village full of religious zealots that drank the blood of dragons and killed all strangers. You could probably go both ways, say that religious zealots are bad and unchecked mages are bad, because Haven is an example for both, hence not really supporting either side.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 04 février 2011 - 11:04 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

RiskyRannis wrote...
I do appreciate you trying to explain it to him, but like I said... I have no intention of engaging with him in any form of argument (not the negative kind which I assume he thinks I mean, but an actual reasoned argument) because there is no merit in spending hours listening to something without substance.

Those that I was responding to earlier are all seemingly gone anyway...plus its too late anyway.

I see where you're going..

But some things really are all to clear. Some things can be interpreted differently. Some can't. Especially if repeated several times in different ways.

[Lotion Soronarr]

AlexXIV wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Alodar wrote...
If a group
of people existed in todays supposedly educated society that had these
abilites, those modern mages would be controlled/locked up/persecuted
without thought.

There is no question it is 100% reasonable for ordinary folks to want mages locked up or killed.

Indeed.
The reason the "templars are bad" view is so prevalent is because most
of us live in cushy western societies where anything that smells like
oppression is Very Bad, and the only determining factor in how one
should treat mages is how fair that treatment is. Of course, we don't
have to live with the idea that Poor Oppressed Joe living next door to
us might be secretly controlling our mind to make us like him-- or one
day turn into a monster and kill our entire family-- but that doesn't
need to stop us from being idealistic in our fantasy worlds, now, does
it? ../../../images/forum/emoticons/wink.png

I would like to know how you interprete the bold part. I guess not in 'It's a fantasy world and you are allowed to be idealistic in fantasy worlds.' I know you guys are in the 'realism league' in more aspects of the game, but it is still a fantasy game.

Sarcasm.

David Gaider wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
But
while we see that was done with the Andrastian societies, don't we see
and read that there are alternatives to what the templars and
Chantry are doing to mages - the nation of Rivain, the Dalish clans, the
Chasind.

They exist without controlling mages. Meaning
that if a mage turns into an abomination and causes destruction, or
otherwise causes problems, they simply suffer and deal with it. I don't
think it's a stretch to suggest that not everyone is going to consider
that a viable alternative.

Again bold part. He basically only says people will have different opinions. The Chasind and the Dalish obviously consider it a viable alternative though. And so did people before the Chantry. And I personally don't see it a problem unless something like in the TI happens again. If you remember, abominations also went on a killing spree in the circle tower so it isn't much saver. It is just saver for the commoner because it happens in a place far away. But for the innocent mages it isn't as nice I assure you.

A lot of people consider a lot of bad things OK.
In tevinter, slavery is considered OK. It may be ignorance, it may be not knowing better...the reasons can be plenty.
I cannot really say why the Dalish or the Chasind consider it so. Maybe they see abominations as natural disasters..something one just has to live with and not do anything about. Maybe they consdier that "it's always been done that way".
Then again, surface area of the nations, popualtion and density, number of mages - all of that will have an influence. Again, all  I can do is speculate on this.

At least to me it appears that hte circle systems keeps the total death toll lower.

David Gaider wrote...

The Dales and Arlathan were also two
nations that had mages. Possibly even the town of Haven, given Kolgrim's
attack of the Chantry's views on "forbidden magic" and Father Eirik
presiding over the Haven Chantry and he was a mage. Doesn't this
illustrate that we can question the validity of what the Chantry is
doing with their templars, and how effective it is?

Based
on what? You know nothing about how the Dales and ancient Arlathan
dealt with magic. And I'm not sure that citing a village full of
religious zealots that drank the blood of dragons and killed all
strangers that came upon them is a particularly good example of "why
mages aren't bad".

This is not even related to the Chantry or Circle. He says we know nothing about Arlathan which is true and thus Arlathan is no proof of anything. And Haven is just a bad example if you are supporting either mages or religious cults, since they are ... a village full of religious zealots that drank the blood of dragons and killed all strangers. You could probably go both ways, say that religious zealots are bad and unchecked mages are bad, because Haven is an example for both, hence not really supporting either side.

Exactly. He sez they are not proper examples or proof of anything. Yet people keep using them as some sort of proof again and again.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 04 février 2011 - 11:14 .

[Balitant]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I see where you're going..

At this point I sincerely doubt that.

[AlexXIV]

Well sarcasm is your interpretation which may or may not be right. I found in DA:O you often had the choice to be idealistic and therefore going the 'best for everyone' path. For example Connor, the Dalish, the Circle, the Landsmeet. Not in Orzammar, but that's only one out of five.

I don't really know much about the Chasind, but the Dalish seem to be fine with their Keepers being mages. Obviously the 'magic talent' is rather rare and if they notice someone is talented the Keeper or older mages take care of him or her. Also I guess they don't have as easy access to bloodmagic as for example Jowan in the Circle Tower because Dalish are more into nature and healing magic.
 
Zathrian is sort of a bad example because he actually used bloodmagic, and while he didn't turn into an abomination he cast a curse which harmed the spirit of the forest, innocent humans and even innocents of his own tribe. I suspect he is more or less an exception though and only in the game as an example why the way the Dalish handle magic isn't perfect either.

I never understood why they wanted to see him as a hero despite the magnitude of his crime. I see it as a sign of desperation which is partly to blame on the chantry and humans who acted more than poorly towards elves in general and the dalish especially for the last centuries. Despite the fact that the last hero who slew an archdemon was an elf (Garahel) which makes me wonder if the fact that my warden was a dalish changes anything at all this time around.

I have, in general, the feeling that in all bad things that happen the Chantry at least plays a role and is partly to blame. They seem for me just to reap what they sow. The sad thing is that the Chantry does not acknowledge their flaws and will probably be too stubborn for any change. And since change will be comming whether they want or not they will be blown away together with their attitude.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 04 février 2011 - 11:46 .

[drahelvete]

Two words: cultural relativism.

Since I don't live in Thedas or know enough about Thedasian culture, it is not my place to pass judgement.

Modifié par drahelvete, 04 février 2011 - 11:47 .

[moilami]

Taritu wrote...



It's reasonable to fear mages, especially blood mages, it's also reasonable to argue that the Chantry has gone too far, and even putting ethical concerns for mages (as opposed to non-mages) aside, that their policies do more damage than good.

I would let a mage bed me anytime in DA world without fear of her turning me into a frog.


Edit: I mean come on give me a break. Why fear mages when any woman could kill me if she wanted?

Modifié par moilami, 04 février 2011 - 12:19 .

[moilami]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

You know what I find funny..

The people keep bashing the Chantry and the templars and the Circle system.

And the Lead Writer DG, occasionally pops up, to try and set things straight, constantly remaining people that the Chantry isn't as evil as some think/want it to be.

But there's no reasoning with some people. They'll rather argue with the author than accept the reality of the setting.
I pitty you people....

He can describe the setting but he can't say how the world evolves. It is not DM's job.

Sick chantry would either destroy itself or be WTF PWNED by advanced society. There are similar laws of physics in DA world as there is in real world. Someone would develop powder, cannons, and rifles. Soon DA world would be magical steampunk with less and less mage envy and fear.

[Lotion Soronarr]

What?

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 04 février 2011 - 12:18 .

[Nerevar-as]

moilami wrote...

He can describe the setting but he can't say how the world evolves. It is not DM's job.

Sick chantry would either destroy itself or be WTF PWNED by advanced society. There are similar laws of physics in DA world as there is in real world. Someone would develop powder, cannons, and rifles. Soon DA world would be magical steampunk with less and less mage envy and fear.

Remembering Arcanum intro...
It´s really sad if mages stop being feared because everybody gets access to similar killing power.

[moilami]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

What?

Have you played Pen&Paper RPGs? In those the DM describes to the players how the world is and what is happening around them now. After that players describe what they do, e.g. how they shape the world.

In DA devs are DMs and they describe the world. After that players step in and begin to shape the world. Now of course DM can chose "1000 mages attack from out of nowhere and kill everything while yelling LOL OWNED and summon 10 000 demons," but that would happen only in his game