1283 réponses à ce sujet

[IanPolaris]

Dave of Canada wrote...

I think the reason we don't hear much about Dalish abominations is because the abomination probably wipes out the clan and that a wiped out clan wouldn't be able to report back "Hey, an abomination wiped us out". That or it wasn't a concept the writers wanted to explore in the game because the Dalish were about the werewolves and not abominations.

No Dave, that doesn't wash.  For a hunter-gatherer group like the Dalish esp when even the children are woodwise, it's virtually impossible to wipe out an entire clan. Someone will get away and tell the others.  Not even the warden (if he sided with the werewolves) was able to wipe out ALL the clan so that no word made it to other clans.  Also the Dalish make it a point to share information on a regular basis and have done so for centuries.

Given all of that, if a tribe got wiped out (or nearly so) even as little as once in a generation, there would be a large and unmistakeable social footprint regarding magic and (especially) untrianed mages, but we see absolutely nothing of the sort.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Morning808 wrote...

Riona45 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
Actually Templars DO try to hunt down Dalish becaue they know their keepers are apostates. 

Indeed--this is all in the setting lore, it's not just an assumption.

And then the Templars get shot with waves of arrows and end up dead!

Pretty much, yeah, which is why when the Templars go on an expidition against the Dalish, they do so in larged armed groups, but they DO try.

-Polaris

[Morning808]

IanPolaris wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

I think the reason we don't hear much about Dalish abominations is because the abomination probably wipes out the clan and that a wiped out clan wouldn't be able to report back "Hey, an abomination wiped us out". That or it wasn't a concept the writers wanted to explore in the game because the Dalish were about the werewolves and not abominations.

No Dave, that doesn't wash.  For a hunter-gatherer group like the Dalish esp when even the children are woodwise, it's virtually impossible to wipe out an entire clan. Someone will get away and tell the others.  Not even the warden (if he sided with the werewolves) was able to wipe out ALL the clan so that no word made it to other clans.  Also the Dalish make it a point to share information on a regular basis and have done so for centuries.

Given all of that, if a tribe got wiped out (or nearly so) even as little as once in a generation, there would be a large and unmistakeable social footprint regarding magic and (especially) untrianed mages, but we see absolutely nothing of the sort.

-Polaris

Thing is, don't the Dalish use a diffrent form of magic? That could be why they don't have the same problems

[IanPolaris]

Morning808 wrote...

Thing is, don't the Dalish use a diffrent form of magic? That could be why they don't have the same problems

There is absolutely no evidence of that.  In fact the Dalish claim (and it's likely correct at least in part) that much of the early magical lore of humans was learned from Arlathan.  It's true that the education system and learning system of magic for the Dalish differ markedly from Andrastian nations (not being locked away and forcibly seperated from your family is a big difference right there) but the magic itself?  Other than a small sub-set of specialized "keeper magic" magic in the Dalish as a whole seems pretty damned conventional.

-Polaris

[moilami]

Nashiktal wrote...

Eh you really shouldn't get to upset about Moilami. He just takes this stuff a bit too seriously. I mean hell its not like he is actually interested in debate or discussion.

I take this as a game.

[moilami]

seanna vampyr wrote...

moilami wrote...

seanna vampyr wrote...

Persoanlly I dislike mages, but they are useful. I just distrust a group of men prancing around in dresses...

Added to the list of idiots.

Wow, this is why people like me don't say we are geeks.  I may build computers, play games, read comics, read discworld, and *faint* wear glasses.  But only a geek would get all butt hurt over a joke.  Lighten up, these discussions are made for debate or a joke or 2, not to be taken literally just because you don't have a sense of humor.  If you don't like what I say report me, don't waste board space just to say something stupid that has no validity or is a joke to lighten the mood. 
If anybody really gets that upset over topics like this grow up or gain a sense of humor.  Geez it's called an opinion people!

I have a list of idiotic opinions, into which I put yours. Something bad in that? Maybe I should had used different word, namely not include that descriptive word you got so emo.

[Ziggeh]

IanPolaris wrote...
Then what's the argument.  Rivaain mages aren't sequestered from society and aren't under Templar control.  The game lore is unmistakeable on these points.

Whether the terms "rivaini witches" and "rivaini mages" are interchangable, or whether, like the Tevinter Magisters it is a distinction.

Given we know they have circles, it's an assumption to say "mages in general aren't under templar control". Given we don't know the nature of the circles, it's also an assumption to say that any are. The only thing we can say without assumption is that "some mages in rivian aren't under templar control".

[John Epler]

A reminder that personal attacks are not welcome on these forums. If you can't stay civil, you will not be welcome here for long.

[IanPolaris]

Ziggeh wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
Then what's the argument.  Rivaain mages aren't sequestered from society and aren't under Templar control.  The game lore is unmistakeable on these points.

Whether the terms "rivaini witches" and "rivaini mages" are interchangable, or whether, like the Tevinter Magisters it is a distinction.

Given we know they have circles, it's an assumption to say "mages in general aren't under templar control". Given we don't know the nature of the circles, it's also an assumption to say that any are. The only thing we can say without assumption is that "some mages in rivian aren't under templar control".

I think you have to distinquish between the Country of Rivain geographically, and the Nation of Rivain Culturally.  The mages of Rivain are not under Templar control period.  Multiple game sources make that clear.  Whtere or not there is a circle in the geographic country of Rivain(likely a Templar transplant at least originally) is irrelevent.  The relevant point is that Rivain mages are not subject to the circle system and Rivain does not seem to be the worse off for it.

I'm sorry but it does at least sound like at least to me, that you are making up (or at least implying) your own facts to diminish the impact of independant Rivianni mages have on the discussion here and their implications thereof.

-Polaris

Edit:  The statement Rivianni Mages are not under Templar/Chantry control is not an assumption.  It's written directly into the current game lore (and in multiple places).  Saying or implying otherwise is what I mean by 'making up your own facts'.

Modifié par IanPolaris, 06 février 2011 - 05:18 .

[deuce985]

David Gaider wrote...

Alodar wrote...
If a group of people existed in todays supposedly educated society that had these abilites, those modern mages would be controlled/locked up/persecuted without thought.

There is no question it is 100% reasonable for ordinary folks to want mages locked up or killed.

Indeed. The reason the "templars are bad" view is so prevalent is because most of us live in cushy western societies where anything that smells like oppression is Very Bad, and the only determining factor in how one should treat mages is how fair that treatment is. Of course, we don't have to live with the idea that Poor Oppressed Joe living next door to us might be secretly controlling our mind to make us like him-- or one day turn into a monster and kill our entire family-- but that doesn't need to stop us from being idealistic in our fantasy worlds, now, does it?

But without these forbidden arts or power, would they survive in Thedas? They have plenty of references in DA where "fordbidden arts" helped the world. The outcome might not be the same in DA:O without blood magic. Heck, my mage used it and saved Fereldan. Without it, I'm not sure I'd survive on  nightmare. I'm sure future DAs will reference the controversy even more, especially considering Hawke's background. It was obvious he used blood magic in one of the trailers. Flemeth and Morrigan saved the Wardens with their forbidden magic. The archdemon would be destroying Fereldan still if it wasn't for them.

Just as you can point to many "bad" instances of blood magic, you can point to as many "good" incidents too. To me, it doesn't seem like the darkspawn are getting any weaker and without power, you're not going to destroy them. I guess it makes sense the Templars are there to "control" it from being out of hand but just how much are they limiting Thedas potential? What if one powerful mage could end the Blights forever? Would it be worth it then?

I figure the Blights aren't ending anytime soon, so you should just go ahead and take the risk. Nobody even knows for sure what will happen with the darkspawn when all seven gods are dead. The Architect couldn't even control his spawn, despite having good intentions.

Modifié par deuce985, 06 février 2011 - 05:47 .

[Ziggeh]

IanPolaris wrote...

I think you have to distinquish between the Country of Rivain geographically, and the Nation of Rivain Culturally.

I'm not sure what difference that makes, mind clarifying why the distinction is important?

IanPolaris wrote...
The mages of Rivain are not under Templar control period.  Multiple game sources make that clear. 

Which sources? I dispute the clarity of the two presented.

IanPolaris wrote...
Whtere or not there is a circle in the geographic country of Rivain(likely a Templar transplant at least originally) is irrelevent. 

If there are circles, with templars in the geographical region of rivian, then there are mages within them. Likely rivaini mages. It's possible they ship mages in from other regions simply to distribute them, but that would be an assumption, as indeed would it be to say they do not.

Can we prove that there are no riviani mages under templar control? If there are some riviani mages under templar and some that are not, can we say that "the mages of riviani are not under templar control"?

IanPolaris wrote...
I'm sorry but it does at least sound like at least to me, that you are making up (or at least implying) your own facts to diminish the impact of independant Rivianni mages have on the discussion here and their implications thereof.

I think the information we have should make the case that they make, and not the ones we think or would like them to make. As wierd as this might seem, I do not have a position on the topic. Indeed, I believe taking one would diminish it's purpose.

IanPolaris wrote...
Edit:  The statement Rivianni Mages are not under Templar/Chantry control is not an assumption. It's written directly into the current game lore (and in multiple
places).

See the above question.

IanPolaris wrote...
Saying or implying otherwise is what I mean by 'making up your own facts'.

Saying an interpretation is unsupported is making up facts? Which facts?

Modifié par Ziggeh, 06 février 2011 - 05:50 .

[X2-Elijah]

 I like mages. And I would gladly have some in my village.

OP answered. 

[IanPolaris]

The latest blog entry clearly states that Rivanni mages are not under Templar control and arguably not worse off for it. How much clearer does it need to be?



As for the distinction, it's a huge distinction (culturally vs geographically). We know that if the Warden annuls the Fereldan circle that the templars do in fact inport other mages to restart it (and Gregoire tells you as much directly when he offers Wynne the job as first enchanter), so given that, it's even likely that a tranplanted circle WOULD have transplanted mages at least initially. Saying they are Rivanni mages is a huge and unwarrented leap on your part especially given the currrent game lore.



Futhermore, the discusion about mages and the circle impact is a CULTURAL argument and thus the distinction between the culture/nation of Rivain (which is outside the Andrastian Scope and outside the Chantry's influence) as opposed to the geographic location of Rivvain is an incredibily important one.



Really? The blog entry and Bros Genitivi Codex entries are both very clear. You simply don't seem to want them to be clear. On the other side, you have one side mention of A (singular) circle in Rivvain when discussing the Harrowing. I'd say the evidence backs me and Lob on this one.



-Polaris

[Ziggeh]

IanPolaris wrote...
The latest blog entry clearly states that Rivanni mages are not under Templar control and arguably not worse off for it. How much clearer does it need to be?

It doesn't say mages. I don't need it to be any clearer because my point is the ambiguity, but to make your point, I'd need to know whether all mages in rivain are witches, or whether like the magisters, it's a distinction. We do not know this.

IanPolaris wrote...
As for the distinction, it's a huge distinction (culturally vs geographically). We know that if the Warden annuls the Fereldan circle that the templars do in fact inport other mages to restart it (and Gregoire tells you as much directly when he offers Wynne the job as first enchanter), so given that, it's even likely that a tranplanted circle WOULD have transplanted mages at least initially.

I see, yes, that is indeed an important distinction. Can we prove that those mages are not in part or whole, riviani? We have no information, and so to say either way would be assumption.

IanPolaris wrote...
Saying they are Rivanni mages is a huge and unwarrented leap on your part especially given the currrent game lore.

Indeed it would. But I've not said that, in fact I've specifically said that it would be an assumption to say.

IanPolaris wrote...
Really? The blog entry and Bros Genitivi Codex entries are both very clear. You simply don't seem to want them to be clear.

I want them to be what they are. Which happens to be unclear. If they were clear, this would be a very straightforward debate.

IanPolaris wrote...
On the other side, you have one side mention of A (singular) circle in Rivvain when discussing the Harrowing.

A few of the demon codex entries are written by a "Senior Enchanter Maleus, once of the Circle of Rivain". Not that the number of sources is relevant. It either exists or it doesn't.

Modifié par Ziggeh, 06 février 2011 - 07:28 .

[IanPolaris]

Honestly Ziggeh, there isn't any point in discussing this any more. I think the source material is quite clear and not ambiguous at all. This is the RPG-Lore argument all over again. If you want to believe there is a huge ambiguity, be my guest. For me and most others I think the Game Lore is clear enough. IMHO you are trying to create uncertainty to make the Chantry look better when no important uncertainly really exists.



I could dispute any of your points, but life's too short.



-Polaris

[Ziggeh]

And I think you're just repeating points and avoiding questions in an attempt to win a debate rather than approaching the truth of the matter.

[IanPolaris]

Here is the key senteince of the blog entry (which is canonical) quoted:

They remind the world that mages are not controlled by templars everywhere in Thedas: not among the Rivaini witches, the Dalish keepers or the Tevinter magisters… and those societies are, arguably, no worse off.

I bolded the key word.  The key word here is mages.  The Witches of the Rivaini are used as one example of this, but the key point here is that mages are not controlled universally and those societies that don't aren't worse off.  Yoiu are fixating on the specific wording of a specific example to try to disprove a general point.  Shame on you.  You can not prove the general from the specific.  After all, Keeper's Firsts and other Dalish Mages (which we know exist from in game experience and lore) aren't mentioned either.  Does that mean they are controlled by the Templars?

The Templars establish circles of magi whereever they go.  This is established.  We also know the Templars fought in the country of rivain.  That is a fact.  However, there is no evidence (and the quote implies the opposite in fact) that these circle mages were Rivaini and plenty of reason to think otherwise (since the exalted march stalled out and Rivain strongly resisted Chantry cultural pressure and remains outside the Chanty auspices even today....and Bros Genetivi even expressly mentioned the Rivaini Witches as a prime example of this.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Ziggeh wrote...

And I think you're just repeating points and avoiding questions in an attempt to win a debate rather than approaching the truth of the matter.

I honestly don't think you are interested in the truth.  Sorry but that's how I read it.

-Polaris

Edit: Neither I nor Lob have 'avoided questions' we just object to specious nitpicking of established game lore in an attempt to make one's own facts.

Modifié par IanPolaris, 06 février 2011 - 07:47 .

[IanPolaris]

They key "truth of the matter" that must be decided is if the Chantry Circle Tower System is necessary or at least necessary enough to justify the known and obvious moral cost.



Anything that detracts from that is irrelevent and you nitpicking over "mages and witches" is a distraction. Given that we know that Rivain is an example where society works without a circle tower system (and explicitly so in game lore), this is the only point that matters for the underlying debate.



-Polaris

[Nashiktal]

I'd like to know how the mages keep their freedom in those countries first. We know they are not imprisoned, we know their is no chantry, but what is the system? Are they actually free? Is their a separate but equally oppressive system in place? Do the mages hold a key cultural role in those places that ensure their freedom? Is it all rainbows and sunshine?



The chantry does provide a good service to the people. However is there a better way? Only the writers know. Hell until we get some solid lore and story this argument is going to continue, and even then we might face a retcon like with the whole heat sink issue in Mass Effect.

[Ziggeh]

IanPolaris wrote...

They key "truth of the matter" that must be decided is if the Chantry Circle Tower System is necessary or at least necessary enough to justify the known and obvious moral cost.

Anything that detracts from that is irrelevent and you nitpicking over "mages and witches" is a distraction.

It's nitpicking to establish the validity of evidence? Bet that stands up well in court.

IanPolaris wrote...
Given that we know that Rivain is an example where society works without a circle tower system (and explicitly so in game lore), this is the only point that matters for the underlying debate.

Except it's not explicit at all. Is Tevinter a society that works without a tower system? Is it equally explicit about this point?

[Stanley Woo]

Let's remember to keep it civil, please, and to be excellent to each other.

[IanPolaris]

Ziggeh wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

They key "truth of the matter" that must be decided is if the Chantry Circle Tower System is necessary or at least necessary enough to justify the known and obvious moral cost.

Anything that detracts from that is irrelevent and you nitpicking over "mages and witches" is a distraction.

It's nitpicking to establish the validity of evidence? Bet that stands up well in court.

We aren't in court, and it doesn't always stand up in court.  An attorney that does this too often can be reprimanded for "badgering".  In addition, standards of 'truth' in court don't necessarily (or even generally) apply elsewhere.  Indeed this is why US and UK courts are decided by Juries and not Judges.....in part to see through such legal trickery.

IanPolaris wrote...
Given that we know that Rivain is an example where society works without a circle tower system (and explicitly so in game lore), this is the only point that matters for the underlying debate.

Except it's not explicit at all. Is Tevinter a society that works without a tower system? Is it equally explicit about this point?

I said the Chantry Tower System.  Modern Tevinter uses a different Tower System that is ultimately run and regulated by mages (the magisters).  That makes it outside the authority of the Templars and Tevinter is certainly as a society more mage friendly than others and always has been.  Also Ancient Tevinter did explicitly work and worked extraordinarily well without a tower system at all.  So yes, explicitly Tevinter is a society that works without a CHANTRY circle system (i.e. run and regulated by Templars) which is the actual disputed point.

-Polaris

[Ziggeh]

IanPolaris wrote...

However, there is no evidence (and the quote implies the opposite in fact) that these circle mages were Rivaini and plenty of reason to think otherwise

And I'm saying "plenty of reasons" are assumptions. If they were evidence, they wouldn't be.

[Ziggeh]

IanPolaris wrote...

I said the Chantry Tower System. Modern Tevinter uses a different Tower System that is ultimately run and regulated by mages (the magisters).  That makes it outside the authority of the Templars and Tevinter is certainly as a society more mage friendly than others and always has been.  Also Ancient Tevinter did explicitly work and worked extraordinarily well without a tower system at all.  So yes, explicitly Tevinter is a society that works without a CHANTRY circle system (i.e. run and regulated by Templars) which is the actual disputed point.

The quote does not say chantry.

If you're saying that it's the quote that explicitly states rivaini society stands outside of templar control, then it follows this is true of tevinter too. As it's not, it's demonstrably not explicit.