1283 réponses à ce sujet

[SkyWard20]

David Gaider wrote...

Alodar wrote...
If a group of people existed in todays supposedly educated society that had these abilites, those modern mages would be controlled/locked up/persecuted without thought.

There is no question it is 100% reasonable for ordinary folks to want mages locked up or killed.

Indeed. The reason the "templars are bad" view is so prevalent is because most of us live in cushy western societies where anything that smells like oppression is Very Bad, and the only determining factor in how one should treat mages is how fair that treatment is. Of course, we don't have to live with the idea that Poor Oppressed Joe living next door to us might be secretly controlling our mind to make us like him-- or one day turn into a monster and kill our entire family-- but that doesn't need to stop us from being idealistic in our fantasy worlds, now, does it?

lol, never thought the lead writer of bioware games would be so pessimistic.

[IanPolaris]

Ziggeh,

Talk to Anders or even the game developers.  Tevinter Templars aren't actual Templars; they are mundane warriors.  They don't have the abilities or responsibilities of Templars.  Templar in the game means Templars trained in the Andrastian (Chantry) tradition.

This is yet another example of what I consider to be legal trickery.

The game lore clearly states that mages are respected in Rivain and that the country culturally resisted the Chantry and the Witches of Rivain are held up as a specific example of this.  This is confirmed in the blog entry I quoted (which is canonical).  The Devs including DG have aknowledfged this about the Rivain.

You are talking a snippet that doesn't actually talk about the underlying issue (morality of the chantry circle tower system) and deliberately and willfully conflating the geography of Rivain (when you know that Templars and the Chantry whereever they go will establish a circle with imported mages) with the culture of Rivain in an obvious attempt to try to impeach the independance of all Rivain mages.

In short, you are trying to prove a general point from one very specific and limited (and only perceived) inconsistancy while dismissing any reasonable explaination for that inconsistancy.

This is not a court of law and not a formal debate club.  This is an informal chat-forum, and as such I consider these rhetorical tactics in such an informal setting to be frankly borderline despicable.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

SkyWard20 wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Alodar wrote...
If a group of people existed in todays supposedly educated society that had these abilites, those modern mages would be controlled/locked up/persecuted without thought.

There is no question it is 100% reasonable for ordinary folks to want mages locked up or killed.

Indeed. The reason the "templars are bad" view is so prevalent is because most of us live in cushy western societies where anything that smells like oppression is Very Bad, and the only determining factor in how one should treat mages is how fair that treatment is. Of course, we don't have to live with the idea that Poor Oppressed Joe living next door to us might be secretly controlling our mind to make us like him-- or one day turn into a monster and kill our entire family-- but that doesn't need to stop us from being idealistic in our fantasy worlds, now, does it?

lol, never thought the lead writer of bioware games would be so pessimistic.

Yeah, tell me about it.  IMHO it ranks as one of the worst Dev quotes I've ever read anywhere.  Not only is it pessimistic, but IMHO I find it at least borderline condescending.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Ziggeh wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

I said the Chantry Tower System. Modern Tevinter uses a different Tower System that is ultimately run and regulated by mages (the magisters).  That makes it outside the authority of the Templars and Tevinter is certainly as a society more mage friendly than others and always has been.  Also Ancient Tevinter did explicitly work and worked extraordinarily well without a tower system at all.  So yes, explicitly Tevinter is a society that works without a CHANTRY circle system (i.e. run and regulated by Templars) which is the actual disputed point.

The quote does not say chantry.

If you're saying that it's the quote that explicitly states rivaini society stands outside of templar control, then it follows this is true of tevinter too. As it's not, it's demonstrably not explicit.

Templar in the context of the game (read the Templar entry yourself) MEANS Templars as trained by the Andrastian Chantry.  While the Tevinter Imperium calls Templars aren't considered templars in the game and they don't have the control or anti-magic abilities of Templars.  Therefore what I said was accurate.

-Polaris

[Maconbar]

Man last several pages are looking like a Polaris filibuster.

[Zanallen]

IanPolaris wrote...

SkyWard20 wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Alodar wrote...
If a group of people existed in todays supposedly educated society that had these abilites, those modern mages would be controlled/locked up/persecuted without thought.

There is no question it is 100% reasonable for ordinary folks to want mages locked up or killed.

Indeed. The reason the "templars are bad" view is so prevalent is because most of us live in cushy western societies where anything that smells like oppression is Very Bad, and the only determining factor in how one should treat mages is how fair that treatment is. Of course, we don't have to live with the idea that Poor Oppressed Joe living next door to us might be secretly controlling our mind to make us like him-- or one day turn into a monster and kill our entire family-- but that doesn't need to stop us from being idealistic in our fantasy worlds, now, does it?

lol, never thought the lead writer of bioware games would be so pessimistic.

Yeah, tell me about it.  IMHO it ranks as one of the worst Dev quotes I've ever read anywhere.  Not only is it pessimistic, but IMHO I find it at least borderline condescending.

-Polaris

It may be pessimistic, but it is true enough. I am not saying that the Chantry method of controling mages is the best way out there, but mages do pose a real threat to the populace as a whole. Also, notice that most societies that don't control mages are ruled by said mages.

[LobselVith8]

Zanallen wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

SkyWard20 wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Alodar wrote...
If a group of people existed in todays supposedly educated society that had these abilites, those modern mages would be controlled/locked up/persecuted without thought.

There is no question it is 100% reasonable for ordinary folks to want mages locked up or killed.

Indeed. The reason the "templars are bad" view is so prevalent is because most of us live in cushy western societies where anything that smells like oppression is Very Bad, and the only determining factor in how one should treat mages is how fair that treatment is. Of course, we don't have to live with the idea that Poor Oppressed Joe living next door to us might be secretly controlling our mind to make us like him-- or one day turn into a monster and kill our entire family-- but that doesn't need to stop us from being idealistic in our fantasy worlds, now, does it?

lol, never thought the lead writer of bioware games would be so pessimistic.

Yeah, tell me about it.  IMHO it ranks as one of the worst Dev quotes I've ever read anywhere.  Not only is it pessimistic, but IMHO I find it at least borderline condescending.

-Polaris

It may be pessimistic, but it is true enough. I am not saying that the Chantry method of controling mages is the best way out there, but mages do pose a real threat to the populace as a whole. Also, notice that most societies that don't control mages are ruled by said mages.

I can understand that it's "realistic" that mages would be persecuted, but it's condescending for him to brush aside the actual concerns about the Chantry controlled Circles and the debate over whether they're doing more harm than good (given that war that seems to be taking place between templars and mages in the DA2 trailer) by ignoring the arguments being made and saying (inaccurately) that it's merely that people are claiming that templars are evil or bad. When you have cases where an innocent is killed because templars thought he was a mage or a bounty being placed on someone because templars think the person is a blood mage, it's cause for concern about how effective the system in place is, especially when it seems to keep resulting in abominations and revolutions.

[Ziggeh]

IanPolaris wrote...

Talk to Anders or even the game developers.  Tevinter Templars aren't actual Templars; they are mundane warriors.  They don't have the abilities or responsibilities of Templars.  Templar in the game means Templars trained in the Andrastian (Chantry) tradition.

Very true (edit: partially true. the majority lack the magic countering abilities)  You see, semantics and context are important, and not just nitpicking.

IanPolaris wrote...
You are talking a snippet that doesn't actually talk about the
underlying issue (morality of the chantry circle tower system) and
deliberately and willfully conflating the geography of Rivain (when you
know that Templars and the Chantry whereever they go will establish a
circle with imported mages) with the culture of Rivain in an obvious
attempt to try to impeach the independance of all Rivain mages.

Deliberately and willfully conflating? You condemn rhetoric a little further down. I'm simply not ignoring the facts. If that Riviani circle operates in precisely the same terms as the ones in Adrastrian nations, which we have no evidence either for or against, then it very much speaks to the underlying issue, as it speaks to the extent of the evidence against.

IanPolaris wrote...
while dismissing any reasonable explaination for that inconsistancy.

Again, this is decidely not what I'm doing. I'm saying that such explanations are assumptions. I'm not saying they're true or false.

Modifié par Ziggeh, 06 février 2011 - 09:19 .

[Zanallen]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

SkyWard20 wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Alodar wrote...
If a group of people existed in todays supposedly educated society that had these abilites, those modern mages would be controlled/locked up/persecuted without thought.

There is no question it is 100% reasonable for ordinary folks to want mages locked up or killed.

Indeed. The reason the "templars are bad" view is so prevalent is because most of us live in cushy western societies where anything that smells like oppression is Very Bad, and the only determining factor in how one should treat mages is how fair that treatment is. Of course, we don't have to live with the idea that Poor Oppressed Joe living next door to us might be secretly controlling our mind to make us like him-- or one day turn into a monster and kill our entire family-- but that doesn't need to stop us from being idealistic in our fantasy worlds, now, does it?

lol, never thought the lead writer of bioware games would be so pessimistic.

Yeah, tell me about it.  IMHO it ranks as one of the worst Dev quotes I've ever read anywhere.  Not only is it pessimistic, but IMHO I find it at least borderline condescending.

-Polaris

It may be pessimistic, but it is true enough. I am not saying that the Chantry method of controling mages is the best way out there, but mages do pose a real threat to the populace as a whole. Also, notice that most societies that don't control mages are ruled by said mages.

I can understand that it's "realistic" that mages would be persecuted, but it's condescending for him to brush aside the actual concerns about the Chantry controlled Circles and the debate over whether they're doing more harm than good (given that war that seems to be taking place between templars and mages in the DA2 trailer) by ignoring the arguments being made and saying (inaccurately) that it's merely that people are claiming that templars are evil or bad. When you have cases where an innocent is killed because templars thought he was a mage or a bounty being placed on someone because templars think the person is a blood mage, it's cause for concern about how effective the system in place is, especially when it seems to keep resulting in abominations and revolutions.

I believe that the statement he was making is that most people aren't viewing the situation objectively, but instead are looking at the mage/templar controversy through a tainted PoV. And just how many cases of innocents being killed or bounties being placed are there mentioned within the game? Morrigan, sure, though she actually IS a maleficar based on the definition of the word. The group that attacks Anders is assumed to be a rogue faction that wants revenge on someone they believed to have killed their friends.

[Maconbar]

Zanallen wrote...

I believe that the statement he was making is that most people aren't viewing the situation objectively, but instead are looking at the mage/templar controversy through a tainted PoV. And just how many cases of innocents being killed or bounties being placed are there mentioned within the game? Morrigan, sure, though she actually IS a maleficar based on the definition of the word. The group that attacks Anders is assumed to be a rogue faction that wants revenge on someone they believed to have killed their friends.

I think that DG was also warning against judging elements of another civilization solely using the norms associated with modern, western, democratic values.

[Zanallen]

Maconbar wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

I believe that the statement he was making is that most people aren't viewing the situation objectively, but instead are looking at the mage/templar controversy through a tainted PoV. And just how many cases of innocents being killed or bounties being placed are there mentioned within the game? Morrigan, sure, though she actually IS a maleficar based on the definition of the word. The group that attacks Anders is assumed to be a rogue faction that wants revenge on someone they believed to have killed their friends.

I think that DG was also warning against judging elements of another civilization solely using the norms associated with modern, western, democratic values.

Yeah, I can't argue with that.

[luddemann]

Elton John is dead wrote...

....
Ferelden - dead.
Darkspawn - dead.
Orcs - dead.
Humans - dead.
Elves - dead.
Dwarfs - dead.
Qunari - dead.
.....

Is there orcs in dragon age?

[Andy379]

God. I hate mages. They have their head so far up their own ass they cant see "Crusader, the Holy Avenger" cut right through their wards and spill their lifeblood all over the damn new carpeting they just installed in their multi-platinum piece condo.

[NKKKK]

I like mages.



-puts ridiculous signature here-

[tmp7704]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Except mages are locked up because of a protest they held in a cathedral, not because of the actions of any blood mages or abominations.

Really, you think that's the only reason mages are being locked up, because they held a protest? What were they protesting then against, and what was the reason for circumstances which caused the protest?

tmp7704 wrote...

We also see mages and non-mages fight together and live side by side at Ostagar -- heck, the mages have their tents right next to the king and the army leaders, quite closer than most of the army. This isn't to say i disagree with this impression of mages in Haven having more say than elsewhere, but this is mainly based on how the village appears to be settlement originally based on rules of Tevinter chantry, with the male priests etc. The setup of combat encounters, i'm rather hesitant to read too much into it.

You mean the seven mages that were permitted to head to Ostagar to help the King's forces battle the Blight, because Knight-Commander Greagoir refused to send any more mages to aid the battle against the darkspawn?

Not sure why the number of mages is so important that you'd chose to ignore the argument altogether in favour of bringing it up. That's quite a derail, and pointless as such because iirc we don't exactly know how many mages is there in the Ferelden circle to begin with. It's not that you witness that many of them in the mage origin, if that's something to go by.

Modifié par tmp7704, 06 février 2011 - 10:29 .

[LobselVith8]

tmp7704 wrote...

Really, you think that's the only reason mages are being locked up, because they held a protest? What were they protesting then against, and what was the reason for circumstances which caused the protest?

No, I know. Read History of the Circle reveals - it explains the history of mages being segregated from society because of a protest they held, nothing more. A codex entry written by a Chantry scholar, no less. If the Chantry's history is telling me that mages were isolated because they held a protest, then I have to wonder how necessary it is to segregate them from society under a system that's caused unrest and revolution.

tmp7704 wrote...

Not sure why the number of mages is so important that you'd chose to ignore the argument altogether in favour of bringing it up. That's quite a derail, and pointless as such because iirc we don't exactly know how many mages is there in the Ferelden circle to begin with. It's not that you witness that many of them in the mage origin, if that's something to go by.

Because you made it sound like we saw a plethora of mages fighting side by side with non-mages at Ostagar, and that's an inaccurate statement, especially when we learn that the Chantry has been harassing the seven mages who are there (as Alistair reveals) because they don't like the fact that there are any mages at all there. The Knight-Commander also turned down the King's peititon for more mages at Ostagar. It's not like the Dalish clans where we learn that Aneirin was accepted or discover in WH that other elven Circle mages have escaped to find sanctuary with them, or in Haven where (despite their flaws) a mage is presiding over the local Chantry and Kolgrim openly distains the Andrastian Chantry's views on prohibiting magic.

[LobselVith8]

Maconbar wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

I believe that the statement he was making is that most people aren't viewing the situation objectively, but instead are looking at the mage/templar controversy through a tainted PoV. And just how many cases of innocents being killed or bounties being placed are there mentioned within the game? Morrigan, sure, though she actually IS a maleficar based on the definition of the word. The group that attacks Anders is assumed to be a rogue faction that wants revenge on someone they believed to have killed their friends.

I think that DG was also warning against judging elements of another civilization solely using the norms associated with modern, western, democratic values.

So Gaider was trying to warn people against making judgements... by making judgements about the people who didn't like the Chantry's actions?

[GreyArea]

David Gaider wrote...

Alodar wrote...
If a group of people existed in todays supposedly educated society that had these abilites, those modern mages would be controlled/locked up/persecuted without thought.

There is no question it is 100% reasonable for ordinary folks to want mages locked up or killed.

Indeed. The reason the "templars are bad" view is so prevalent is because most of us live in cushy western societies where anything that smells like oppression is Very Bad, and the only determining factor in how one should treat mages is how fair that treatment is. Of course, we don't have to live with the idea that Poor Oppressed Joe living next door to us might be secretly controlling our mind to make us like him-- or one day turn into a monster and kill our entire family-- but that doesn't need to stop us from being idealistic in our fantasy worlds, now, does it?

"There is no question it is 100% reasonable for ordinary folks to want mages locked up or killed."

To which some people answered "indeed".

Even in modern society, where some can access very good health care, mages who can revive dead and apply an cleansing aura which cures of injuries, broken bones, and so on without any expenses would be such a priceless talent that no medical technology can ever be better in foreseeable future. If such a healer could turn into demon, noone would care a bit except cry the loss of the godly healer.

This holds even more true in medieval type fantasy worlds where health care was comparable to torture. "Poor Opressed Joes" would go berserk en masse if their godly health care would be tried to take away and replaced with some very big torture type health care methods.

Only in some very stupid and moronic fantasy game godly healers would be exterminated. In any other world where there is no comparable health care technology such healers would be guarded like crown jewels. Free raise death, free curing of injuries, everything magically and without any pains or side effects, anyone? Who can say with serious face "no, I fear that the mage can turn into demon or mind control me". I don't even have to take military aspects into this, though those who has only seen Hollywood Hero Movies does not understand how invaluable mages would be.

Dragon Age is just horribly broken crap, and no amount of arguing about mind control and demons changes the fact.

Modifié par GreyArea, 06 février 2011 - 11:55 .

[Riona45]

IanPolaris wrote...
Yeah, tell me about it.  IMHO it ranks as one of the worst Dev quotes I've ever read anywhere.  Not only is it pessimistic, but IMHO I find it at least borderline condescending.

-Polaris

Also, it kind of implies that oppression doesn't exist in "cushy" Western societies (life is "cushy" for everyone?), and when/if it is discovered, things are quickly made right and all is well again.

As far as I can tell that is not the case.

Modifié par Riona45, 07 février 2011 - 12:19 .

[GreyArea]

Riona45 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
Yeah, tell me about it.  IMHO it ranks as one of the worst Dev quotes I've ever read anywhere.  Not only is it pessimistic, but IMHO I find it at least borderline condescending.

-Polaris

Also, it kind of implies that oppression doesn't exist in "cushy" Western societies (life is "cushy" for everyone?), and when/if it is discovered, things are quickly made right and all is well again.

As far as I can tell that is not the case.

I haven't ever seen anything like it was. Imagine a Jesus walking around and miracleously really curing people of everything. And not only curing but raising dead back to life. Only in world where none never get injuries or dies such healers would be exterminated. How about real world? Died in car accident? No probs, you can go back to work tomorrow and have sex today.

There just is no way mages would be killed. The devs are in a hurry to do something in DA2 to make-believe mages would be killed.

[TRISTAN WERBE]

no there nerds

[s0meguy6665]

David Gaider wrote...

Alodar wrote...
If a group of people existed in todays supposedly educated society that had these abilites, those modern mages would be controlled/locked up/persecuted without thought.

There is no question it is 100% reasonable for ordinary folks to want mages locked up or killed.

Indeed. The reason the "templars are bad" view is so prevalent is because most of us live in cushy western societies where anything that smells like oppression is Very Bad, and the only determining factor in how one should treat mages is how fair that treatment is. Of course, we don't have to live with the idea that Poor Oppressed Joe living next door to us might be secretly controlling our mind to make us like him-- or one day turn into a monster and kill our entire family-- but that doesn't need to stop us from being idealistic in our fantasy worlds, now, does it?

I think you should move far away from civilization, David. Who knows, your neighbour might decide to kill your whole family with a gun.

[ALVIG824]

....i wan't to shoot lightning at this fool

[Riona45]

GreyArea wrote...
I haven't ever seen anything like it was. Imagine a Jesus walking around and miracleously really curing people of everything. And not only curing but raising dead back to life. Only in world where none never get injuries or dies such healers would be exterminated. How about real world? Died in car accident? No probs, you can go back to work tomorrow and have sex today.

There just is no way mages would be killed. The devs are in a hurry to do something in DA2 to make-believe mages would be killed.

None of that...has anything to do with what I said.

[Loc'n'lol]

Get your facts straight Gray Area : no-one can revive the dead in DA.