1283 réponses à ce sujet

[the_one_54321]

GreyArea wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
Consider that the phrase "all men are created equal" is only applicable when it is reasonably demonstrable that all men are indeed created equal.
In the real world it is demonstrable that all men are indeed created with relative equality. In Thedas it is demonstrable, rather, that mages are not created equal to other men.

Yes, but that's why I call them people. As people they are equal, and it is not wrong to call them people. You can't be less or more people.

Why should it make a diference if they are more or less  or equally cognizant? They are still unequally created.

[Malanek]

GreyArea wrote...
Exactly. The question you have to ask is do we need mages? Are they useful to us? Can you live without mages? I say my life wont be a bit worse without mages - the opposite is true. I would at least be safe.

People of Thedas would, in all likeliehood, be living under the Qun if it were not for mages.

[Angel of Nessus]

If I can call forth an elemental gust of wind to lift that attractive barmaid's skirt from 20 yards away, you'd bet your ass that I'd like mages.

[Last Vizard]

Angel of Nessus wrote...

If I can call forth an elemental gust of wind to lift that attractive barmaid's skirt from 20 yards away, you'd bet your ass that I'd like mages.

Your focus is great, the mind strong, come to the darkside and i'll rule here while you rule over there.(pointing to the skirts of different barmaids)

[Last Vizard]

I play as a Mage everytime i play an RPG. (just a small idea and not fully thought out due to how ridiculously complicated it would get)



Those with Magic should be placed in Towers much like the circle of Magi, where they are trained from a young age against possesion and taught the dangers of demons and their tricks. A Mage caught practicing or communicating with demons should be interrigated using magic devices and such until it is clear what has taken place then punished accordingly, these schools should be governed by mages with outside inquisitors sent in by the ruling body of the nation.....



once they graduate (maybe age 25 at the least when it is demonstraigted that the person can be reintroduced into the population while working in jobs only mages can do) they should allowed the same rights as everyone esle however they should still be watched by the Inquisitors. The military potential that Mages provide is too great, any country who didn't use Mages would be pwnd.....



Mages are the next step in evolution, fear is holding these backwards countries well, um... back... its the same as in the X-men universe, your either with the Mutants (the future) or against (evolutionary stagnation)



Oh and everyone should do like Mayor West in FamilyGuy..... all bodies should be cremated to stop them from coming back as zombies. "how do you like me now Redcliff demon?".

[Ziggeh]

Last Vizard wrote...

Mages are the next step in evolution, fear is holding these backwards countries well, um... back... its the same as in the X-men universe, your either with the Mutants (the future) or against (evolutionary stagnation)

Haha, evolutionary stagnation. Being active prey for extradimensional beings helps one procreate.

[Sylvius the Mad]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Why should it make a diference if they are more or less  or equally cognizant? They are still unequally created.

Exactly right.

And this is why the two struggle.

[Last Vizard]

Ziggeh wrote...

Last Vizard wrote...

Mages are the next step in evolution, fear is holding these backwards countries well, um... back... its the same as in the X-men universe, your either with the Mutants (the future) or against (evolutionary stagnation)

Haha, evolutionary stagnation. Being active prey for extradimensional beings helps one procreate.

.In biology, evolution is the change in the inherited traits of a population of organisms through successive generations. When a population splits into smaller groups, these groups evolve independently and develop into new species. ...

.specifically to a widely held 19th century belief that organisms are intrinsically bound to improve themselves, and that changes are progressive and arise through inheritance of acquired characters

I'd say that procreation is just the means to create the next generations of organisms who are better suited to surviving. The ability to create matter using nothing more than force of will is a pretty big improvement....
if every baby that was born with the ability to use magic was killed, then the rest of the population would become more and more stagnant until Mages are fewer and fewer in occurance (would never reach zero but it would be very low).

A creature that can use magic will always pwn those without magic.... unless they balance it, to make it more fair on the lesser creature.

[tez19]

i have not read the thread but wish to respond to the thread title. I personally do not like playing as a mage although i have nothing against mage companions and characters. I have always played a warrior and always will, just comfortable with that. I will however play all the classes for the achievements

Modifié par tez19, 09 février 2011 - 09:24 .

[Michael Hamilton]

David Gaider wrote...

Alodar wrote...
If a group of people existed in todays supposedly educated society that had these abilites, those modern mages would be controlled/locked up/persecuted without thought.

There is no question it is 100% reasonable for ordinary folks to want mages locked up or killed.

Indeed. The reason the "templars are bad" view is so prevalent is because most of us live in cushy western societies where anything that smells like oppression is Very Bad, and the only determining factor in how one should treat mages is how fair that treatment is. Of course, we don't have to live with the idea that Poor Oppressed Joe living next door to us might be secretly controlling our mind to make us like him-- or one day turn into a monster and kill our entire family-- but that doesn't need to stop us from being idealistic in our fantasy worlds, now, does it?

The issue is this basically.  What follows is all just personal opinion.

It seems there is no "right side" because while not all mages are bad, I can't count the number of times I've done my best to be reasonable and assist mages only to have them get all crazy, ugly, and personal the moment I turn my back.  Power can corrupt, and it often does.  Blood magic is so readily available and so easily exploitable that most mages when faced with desparation will embrace the easily corruptable power and the demons that come to them in doing so.

Not always, but often enough that it really does get kind of annoying when you're helping someone out only to be stabbed in the back by an abomination a few minutes later.  Makes you really consider the templar's cause as just even if it is oppressive.

Mages are basically like walking timebombs, some may never go off, but when one does do you really want it going off in the villiage square?  I'm no fan of the templars either, however, I love mages when they are sane, in control, and put together.  Templars are also succeptable to corruption as they are placed in a position of control.

Essentially the problem is not black and white.

Modifié par Michael Hamilton, 09 février 2011 - 09:34 .

[Ziggeh]

Last Vizard wrote...

.specifically to a widely held 19th century belief that organisms are intrinsically bound to improve themselves, and that changes are progressive and arise through inheritance of acquired characters

Hah, were did you quote that from? Because that's called Lamarckism, which is the theory that Darwinism overturned It was widely held and it was untrue.

Last Vizard wrote...

if every baby that was born with the ability to use magic was killed, then the rest of the population would become more and more stagnant until Mages are fewer and fewer in occurance (would never reach zero but it would be very low).

Is magic a strictly inhereted trait? It seems kids born to mages are reasonably likely to be mages themselves, but for the most part they're not allowed to procreate, yet their are still quite a number of them. Perhaps the process is more involved than straight inheritence.

Secondly: stagnant is not a pejorative in evolutionary terms. It means a species has found equilibrium and doesn't need to change to increase it's ability to procreate. Again, natural selection has no sense of better or worse in the terms you seem to think it does.

Last Vizard wrote...
A creature that can use magic will always pwn those without magic.... unless they balance it, to make it more fair on the lesser creature.

And you think one on one conflicts are the way natural selection is decided?

[Sylvius the Mad]

Michael Hamilton wrote...

The issue is this basically.  What follows is all just personal opinion.

It seems there is no "right side" because while not all mages are bad, I can't count the number of times I've done my best to be reasonable and assist mages only to have them get all crazy, ugly, and personal the moment I turn my back.  Power can corrupt, and it often does.  Blood magic is so readily available and so easily exploitable that most mages when faced with desparation will embrace the easily corruptable power and the demons that come to them in doing so.

Not always, but often enough that it really does get kind of annoying when you're helping someone out only to be stabbed in the back by an abomination a few minutes later.  Makes you really consider the templar's cause as just even if it is oppressive.

Mages are basically like walking timebombs, some may never go off, but when one does do you really want it going off in the villiage square?  I'm no fan of the templars either, however, I love mages when they are sane, in control, and put together.  Templars are also succeptable to corruption as they are placed in a position of control.

Essentially the problem is not black and white.

And while I'm sure you'll find many people agreeing with that speech, it doesn't really help us form policy.

[Michael Hamilton]

I'm not proposing a solution.



I believe that's up to the player as they approach each decision in the game.

[KawaiiKatie]

Michael Hamilton wrote...

It seems there is no "right side" because while not all mages are bad, I can't count the number of times I've done my best to be reasonable and assist mages only to have them get all crazy, ugly, and personal the moment I turn my back.

While there is no "right side," I got the impression from both DA:O and Awakening that both sides were still wrong. There has to be a better way, some sort of compromise, something where both sides can give ground, but gain a little, too. Because both sides have hurt, and both sides have been wronged.

My Mage-Warden wanted to help the Circle so badly... Maybe Mage-Hawke will have a better go of it?

[the_one_54321]

Michael Hamilton wrote...
Essentially the problem is not black and white.

But there is no gray area. There never is a gray area as gray is an optical illusion caused my finite but infinitesimal mixing of black and white. Which I think makes the analogy even more apt. It's never that things are gray, it's you can't possibly becapable of separating every infinitesmial instance of black from the corresponding white.

But I digress. The issue here is that the problem is actually black and blacker.

[KawaiiKatie]

Michael Hamilton wrote...

I'm not proposing a solution.

I believe that's up to the player as they approach each decision in the game.

But.... The Mage-Warden had a chance to make things better for all mages (or, at least the mages of Ferelden), only to learn much later that this request was denied. I already made that decision in-game, why do we have to do it again, and how can we know that this time, it'll stick? What makes the Champion of Kirkwall so much more influential than the Hero of Ferelden?

[Michael Hamilton]

KawaiiKatie wrote...

Michael Hamilton wrote...

I'm not proposing a solution.

I believe that's up to the player as they approach each decision in the game.

But.... The Mage-Warden had a chance to make things better for all mages (or, at least the mages of Ferelden), only to learn much later that this request was denied. I already made that decision in-game, why do we have to do it again, and how can we know that this time, it'll stick? What makes the Champion of Kirkwall so much more influential than the Hero of Ferelden?

Guess you'll have to wait and see.

Modifié par Michael Hamilton, 09 février 2011 - 09:45 .

[KawaiiKatie]

Michael Hamilton wrote...

KawaiiKatie wrote...

But.... The Mage-Warden had a chance to make things better for all mages (or, at least the mages of Ferelden), only to learn much later that this request was denied. I already made that decision in-game, why do we have to do it again, and how can we know that this time, it'll stick? What makes the Champion of Kirkwall so much more influential than the Hero of Ferelden?

Guess you'll have to wait and see.

Oh dear, I hope this doesn't all lead up to a huge disappointment.... Then again, I suppose that's true of the entire DA2 story, and not just the mages.

I've got my fingers crossed.....!


EDIT: Ah, I'm going mad! If Mage-Hawke, all on his/her own, can free the mages... It invalidates the efforts of my Mage-Warden so much more than just the Chantry denying the request. It's, "The Chantry said no to your request, Mage-Warden. But if that Champion of Kirkwall were to ask, then we might consider it." I... I don't know how to feel about this... Then again, I'm making assumptions.... I just hope the story doesn't play out that way....

Yes, yes, all my fretting is premature, but with DA2 still a month away, I don't know what else to think...

Modifié par KawaiiKatie, 09 février 2011 - 09:57 .

[IanPolaris]

Michael Hamilton wrote...
Not always, but often enough that it really does get kind of annoying when you're helping someone out only to be stabbed in the back by an abomination a few minutes later.  Makes you really consider the templar's cause as just even if it is oppressive.

Mages are basically like walking timebombs, some may never go off, but when one does do you really want it going off in the villiage square?  I'm no fan of the templars either, however, I love mages when they are sane, in control, and put together.  Templars are also succeptable to corruption as they are placed in a position of control.

Essentially the problem is not black and white.

Michael, proof of this in the game might be nice.  That is don't tell us, show us.  Right now there is no incontravertable evidence that mages spontaneously become abominations at anything like what you are implying unless deliberately put in a no-win situation (like being hunted by Templars).  Again, I point to your own blog referring to the Rivain, Dalish, and Chasind (just to name three). 

If it turns out (which I believe to be the case based on the game evidence) that the odds of a mage spontaneously and for no reason becoming an abomination is virtually zero, then it's not a grey issue at all.

-Polaris

[Morroian]

Michael Hamilton wrote...

It seems there is no "right side" because while not all mages are bad, I can't count the number of times I've done my best to be reasonable and assist mages only to have them get all crazy, ugly, and personal the moment I turn my back.  Power can corrupt, and it often does.  Blood magic is so readily available and so easily exploitable that most mages when faced with desparation will embrace the easily corruptable power and the demons that come to them in doing so.

But doesn't the chantry drive them to such desperation?

[Last Vizard]

Ziggeh wrote...

Last Vizard wrote...

.specifically to a widely held 19th century belief that organisms are intrinsically bound to improve themselves, and that changes are progressive and arise through inheritance of acquired characters

Hah, were did you quote that from? Because that's called Lamarckism, which is the theory that Darwinism overturned It was widely held and it was untrue.

Last Vizard wrote...

if every baby that was born with the ability to use magic was killed, then the rest of the population would become more and more stagnant until Mages are fewer and fewer in occurance ( would never reach zero but it would be very low).

Is magic a strictly inhereted trait? It seems kids born to mages are reasonably likely to be mages themselves, but for the most part they're not allowed to procreate, yet their are still quite a number of them. Perhaps the process is more involved than straight inheritence.

Secondly: stagnant is not a pejorative in evolutionary terms. It means a species has found equilibrium and doesn't need to change to increase it's ability to procreate. Again, natural selection has no sense of better or worse in the terms you seem to think it does.

Last Vizard wrote...
A creature that can use magic will always pwn those without magic.... unless they balance it, to make it more fair on the lesser creature.

And you think one on one conflicts are the way natural selection is decided?

1. Darwinism isn't completly correct either, it doesn't explain the flagellin bacteria i think it called(it leads to intelligent design theory) , but that doesn't matter.  Magic is the next step in the advancement of an organism, thats why others are still born to parents who can't use magic, thats why i said the number wouldn't reach zero...

2. Nature is trying to take the path of Magic, while fear and organisations like the Chantry are deciding that Magic is bad... Mages need to be trained from a young age to protect them from demons, the broken circle quest shows what a fool can achieve (thought he could control demons).... it comes down to two types of people, those who accept candy from a stranger and those who run and get someone to help, the only difference here is education on stranger danger.(same thing for Demons lol cause their candy is the bad kind).

3. This isn't about RL natural selection, this involves magic and demons.  Do you think magic would benifit a male organism that is competing with another male form the same species that can't use magic?....

[Michael Hamilton]

IanPolaris wrote...

Michael Hamilton wrote...
Not always, but often enough that it really does get kind of annoying when you're helping someone out only to be stabbed in the back by an abomination a few minutes later.  Makes you really consider the templar's cause as just even if it is oppressive.

Mages are basically like walking timebombs, some may never go off, but when one does do you really want it going off in the villiage square?  I'm no fan of the templars either, however, I love mages when they are sane, in control, and put together.  Templars are also succeptable to corruption as they are placed in a position of control.

Essentially the problem is not black and white.

Michael, proof of this in the game might be nice.  That is don't tell us, show us.  Right now there is no incontravertable evidence that mages spontaneously become abominations at anything like what you are implying unless deliberately put in a no-win situation (like being hunted by Templars).  Again, I point to your own blog referring to the Rivain, Dalish, and Chasind (just to name three). 

If it turns out (which I believe to be the case based on the game evidence) that the odds of a mage spontaneously and for no reason becoming an abomination is virtually zero, then it's not a grey issue at all.

-Polaris

I wasn't trying to literally say anything about spontaneous abominations.  I think you're reading me wrong.

Templars are hardly the only threat that can spark desparation.  That's really all I'm getting at.

Modifié par Michael Hamilton, 09 février 2011 - 10:31 .

[Michael Hamilton]

KawaiiKatie wrote...

Michael Hamilton wrote...

KawaiiKatie wrote...

But.... The Mage-Warden had a chance to make things better for all mages (or, at least the mages of Ferelden), only to learn much later that this request was denied. I already made that decision in-game, why do we have to do it again, and how can we know that this time, it'll stick? What makes the Champion of Kirkwall so much more influential than the Hero of Ferelden?

Guess you'll have to wait and see.

Oh dear, I hope this doesn't all lead up to a huge disappointment.... Then again, I suppose that's true of the entire DA2 story, and not just the mages.

I've got my fingers crossed.....!


EDIT: Ah, I'm going mad! If Mage-Hawke, all on his/her own, can free the mages... It invalidates the efforts of my Mage-Warden so much more than just the Chantry denying the request. It's, "The Chantry said no to your request, Mage-Warden. But if that Champion of Kirkwall were to ask, then we might consider it." I... I don't know how to feel about this... Then again, I'm making assumptions.... I just hope the story doesn't play out that way....

Yes, yes, all my fretting is premature, but with DA2 still a month away, I don't know what else to think...

Since when has any dictatorship ever been turned over by asking politely?

Really think about what you're saying.

"I asked and they said no!"

Modifié par Michael Hamilton, 09 février 2011 - 10:27 .

[the_one_54321]

IanPolaris wrote...
Michael, proof of this in the game might be nice.  That is don't tell us, show us.  Right now there is no incontravertable evidence that mages spontaneously become abominations at anything like what you are implying unless deliberately put in a no-win situation (like being hunted by Templars).  Again, I point to your own blog referring to the Rivain, Dalish, and Chasind (just to name three). 

If it turns out (which I believe to be the case based on the game evidence) that the odds of a mage spontaneously and for no reason becoming an abomination is virtually zero, then it's not a grey issue at all.

-Polaris

See above for comments on the application of "all men are created equal."

[IanPolaris]

Michael Hamilton wrote...
I wasn't trying to literally say anything about spontaneous abominations.  I think you're reading me wrong.

Templars are hardly the only threat that can spark desparation.  That's really all I'm getting at.

With all due respect I was not.  Unless it's true that a mage can become an abomination without notice at a reasonable rate, then the Circle Tower System simply isn't justified.  I was using "being hunted by a Templar" as an example, but the available evidences does at least suggest that abomination rates for mages are very low unless they are thrown into a situation where they are feared, hated, and yes imprisoned.

That's all I was getting at.

-Polaris