1283 réponses à ce sujet

[Junri]

AlexXIV wrote...

Junri wrote...

I do not know about you guys, but I prefer my cities abomination and maleficar free thank you very much. The only reason I sided with the mages is because they are probably more effective fighting force against darkspawn then the templars.

But if your cities are abomination-free people won't need a hero and you will be unemployed, loiter on the streets and beg for money to buy you a meal.

What? You rather have the fade viel torn unsunder and abominations, undead corpses, demons leaking out into the world, especially if most people that live in Thedas are common peasents who cannot defend themselves? Also, if the cities are abomination-free, the people dealing with the maleficar must be doing a pretty good job then.

If I was a common peasent in Thedas, I would thank the maker that templars exist, because I don't want my mind controlled, my houses burnt, my children used for blood magic fuel and my body being eaten by a demon.

Then again, the Tevinter Imperium seemed to do fine in terms of abominations and demons, although they did use magic to heavily oppress those they conquered and used their slaves as blood magic fuel.

[Elsariel]

silentassassin264 wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Alodar wrote...
If a group of people existed in todays supposedly educated society that had these abilites, those modern mages would be controlled/locked up/persecuted without thought.

There is no question it is 100% reasonable for ordinary folks to want mages locked up or killed.

Indeed. The reason the "templars are bad" view is so prevalent is because most of us live in cushy western societies where anything that smells like oppression is Very Bad, and the only determining factor in how one should treat mages is how fair that treatment is. Of course, we don't have to live with the idea that Poor Oppressed Joe living next door to us might be secretly controlling our mind to make us like him-- or one day turn into a monster and kill our entire family-- but that doesn't need to stop us from being idealistic in our fantasy worlds, now, does it?

I doubt that.  If there were certain people in modern planet earth that could heal people, cast fireballs, etc. they would probably be revered as gods in many places and have cults dedicated to them.  The only reason we dismiss that now is because there actually is no magic in real life, if there was, you can bet it would be ruling over us much like we have science do that now.  People would take the good with the bad because if you are being ruled by mages, an abomination isn't even a big deal because the other mages can just blow it up.  You also have to keep in mind that there is plenty of anti-magical stuff as well ie Knight Commander plate, Mage Hunter, Dweomer runes galore.  If people wanted to live apart from magic like the dwarves, they could very easily do that as well.  If you were afraid Joe was controlling you, just wear a dweomer rune engraved hat (with lyrium trimmings for extra shiny).  

THIS.  I wanted to write this earlier but I got lazy.    To play devil's advocate though, I think it all depends on how prevelent magic appears within people.  If only a small fraction of the populace actually exhibits magical power, it's conceivable that they'd be oppressed for a long long time.  The more people with magic, the more likely they'd be the one's on top.

[blothulfur]

Nemesis, I like that.

[David Gaider]

HopHazzard wrote...
Any person in my neighborhood could snap one day and go on a killing spree. That doesn't mean no one should be allowed to live near me. Also, in modern society we have the means to track and monitor potentially dangerous people without imprisoning them.

Sure, but could that person snap and start lobbing off fireballs and torch your entire neighborhood, requiring an entire unit of policemen to bring him down? Does he do that through no will of his own, or personal defect, but could literally transform into this killer without any warning signs? What if modern society found that this wasn't the act of a lone madman, but an entire class of people with the same genetic makeup? Do you honestly think that something wouldn't be done to safeguard against these "potentially dangerous" people?

Sorry, but it's a simplistic comparison that doesn't hold water.

Elsariel wrote...
THIS.  I wanted to write this earlier but I got lazy.    To play devil's advocate though, I think it all depends on how prevelent magic appears within people.  If only a small fraction of the populace actually exhibits magical power, it's conceivable that they'd be oppressed for a long long time.  The more people with magic, the more likely they'd be the one's on top.

And the Tevinter Imperium would show that can, indeed, happen. The Exalted March of Andraste would also show what it takes to dislodge that "superior order", and why people might think it's not okay to allow mages to "do as thou wilt".

Modifié par David Gaider, 03 février 2011 - 04:53 .

[HopHazzard]

arcane-weirdo wrote...

Does anybody think mage-fear is kinda similar to homophobia?(asides from the whole mage-fear is in-game thingy) *backs away slowly*

Not really, since mages are objectively dangerous. They have a clearly demonstrated higher risk of possession with much more dire consequences than possessed non-mages. That said, I still don't think the solution is preemptive imprisonment.

[silentassassin264]

David Gaider wrote...

Elsariel wrote...
THIS.  I wanted to write this earlier but I got lazy.    To play devil's advocate though, I think it all depends on how prevelent magic appears within people.  If only a small fraction of the populace actually exhibits magical power, it's conceivable that they'd be oppressed for a long long time.  The more people with magic, the more likely they'd be the one's on top.

And the Tevinter Imperium would show that can, indeed, happen. The Exalted March of Andraste would also show what it takes to dislodge that "superior order", and why people might think it's not okay to allow mages to "do as thou wilt".

You are using the Tevinter Imperium like it is some curse word.  We had a more a less real life example of the Tevinter Imperium (sans the magic of course) with the Roman empire.  It had the slavery and all those vices as well.  We still however treat the age of the Roman Empire as a great period or learning, culture, and all that jazz.

David Gaider wrote...

HopHazzard wrote...
Any person in my neighborhood could snap one day and go on a killing spree. That doesn't mean no one should be allowed to live near me. Also, in modern society we have the means to track and monitor potentially dangerous people without imprisoning them.

Sure, but could that person snap and start lobbing off fireballs and torch your entire neighborhood, requiring an entire unit of policemen to bring him down? Does he do that through no will of his own, or personal defect, but could literally transform into this killer without any warning signs? What if modern society found that this wasn't the act of a lone madman, but an entire class of people with the same genetic makeup? Do you honestly think that something wouldn't be done to safeguard against these dangerous people?

Sorry, but it's a simplistic comparison that doesn't hold water.

Not fireballs but homemade incendiary devices, yes.  
Require an entire police unit to take them down. yes. http://en.wikipedia....ki/Shawn_Nelson
There are plenty of depressions and mental disorders let alone drug use that can cause people to "snap" so to speak with no warning signs.

It is not as simplistic as you present it.

Modifié par silentassassin264, 03 février 2011 - 04:57 .

[Bad King]

HopHazzard wrote...

arcane-weirdo wrote...

Does anybody think mage-fear is kinda similar to homophobia?(asides from the whole mage-fear is in-game thingy) *backs away slowly*

Not really, since mages are objectively dangerous. They have a clearly demonstrated higher risk of possession with much more dire consequences than possessed non-mages. That said, I still don't think the solution is preemptive imprisonment.

While this is true, some people discriminate against them simply for being mages.

[AlexXIV]

David Gaider wrote...

Elsariel wrote...
THIS.  I wanted to write this earlier but I got lazy.    To play devil's advocate though, I think it all depends on how prevelent magic appears within people.  If only a small fraction of the populace actually exhibits magical power, it's conceivable that they'd be oppressed for a long long time.  The more people with magic, the more likely they'd be the one's on top.

And the Tevinter Imperium would show that can, indeed, happen. The Exalted March of Andraste would also show what it takes to dislodge that "superior order", and why people might think it's not okay to allow mages to "do as thou wilt".

So Andraste wasn't a mage and/or had no mages to fight against the Tevinter Imperium? The tevinters were, afaik, evil to begin with. They were oppressors, conquerors, etc. I can think of people doing the same even without magic so I don't see where exactly magic is the source of evil. Power corrupts, that's true. But we live in societies led by powerful people aswell and still we live relatively civilized and peaceful. Power is power, no matter if magic, political, military or whatever. Or not?

Modifié par AlexXIV, 03 février 2011 - 04:56 .

[_Somebody]

silentassassin264 wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Elsariel wrote...
THIS.  I wanted to write this earlier but I got lazy.    To play devil's advocate though, I think it all depends on how prevelent magic appears within people.  If only a small fraction of the populace actually exhibits magical power, it's conceivable that they'd be oppressed for a long long time.  The more people with magic, the more likely they'd be the one's on top.

And the Tevinter Imperium would show that can, indeed, happen. The Exalted March of Andraste would also show what it takes to dislodge that "superior order", and why people might think it's not okay to allow mages to "do as thou wilt".

You are using the Tevinter Imperium like it is some curse word.  We had a more a less real life example of the Tevinter Imperium (sans the magic of course) with the Roman empire.  It had the slavery and all those vices as well.  We still however treat the age of the Roman Empire as a great period or learning, culture, and all that jazz.

My impression in DAO was that people dont look too fondly on Tevinter as it was in the past, and now even with their whole imperial chantry. 

Modifié par Somebody, 03 février 2011 - 04:55 .

[David Gaider]

silentassassin264 wrote...
You are using the Tevinter Imperium like it is some curse word.  We had a more a less real life example of the Tevinter Imperium (sans the magic of course) with the Roman empire.  It had the slavery and all those vices as well.  We still however treat the age of the Roman Empire as a great period or learning, culture, and all that jazz.

And? Yes, the Tevinter Imperium no doubt brought a great many advancements -- they introduced dwarven commerce and engineering to the world, for instance. That doesn't stop the fact that it was created through the tyranny of mages over the non-magical... and provides plenty of evidence for what happens when mages rule (and thus why the non-magical might be leery today). Any moralizing you want to mix into that is kind of beside the point.

[blothulfur]

Aleistair "do what thou will is the whole of the law" Crowley was a mage, it wasn't laudanum he was actually ventruing into the fade.

And now I have become a conspiracy theorist, pity me.

Modifié par blothulfur, 03 février 2011 - 04:59 .

[AlexXIV]

blothulfur wrote...

Aleistair "do what thou will is the whole of the law" Crowley was a mage, it wasn't laudanum he was actually ventruing into the fade.
And now I have become a conspiracy theorist.

How can one become conspiracy theorist in the Qun? Wouldn't that mean you missed your destiny?

[connorthedragonslayer]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Bad King wrote...

Without mages, Ferelden would stand no chance against the Darkspawn.

How's that?  You could conceivably kill Wynne, not have Morrigan at the final battle, not be a mage yourself, side with the Templars... and still defeat the Blight.

Well, without Flemeth, who may not strictly be a mage in the same vein as Wynne or Morrigan but is at least a magic-wielder, you would in fact be dead. So would not have defeated the Blight

But anyway, yes, I like mages. I normally play a mage on my second run through. For some reason I always do warrior first. I know people say mages are overpowered but I always found my warrior playthroughs a lot easier.

Modifié par connorthedragonslayer, 03 février 2011 - 05:00 .

[silentassassin264]

David Gaider wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...
You are using the Tevinter Imperium like it is some curse word.  We had a more a less real life example of the Tevinter Imperium (sans the magic of course) with the Roman empire.  It had the slavery and all those vices as well.  We still however treat the age of the Roman Empire as a great period or learning, culture, and all that jazz.

And? Yes, the Tevinter Imperium no doubt brought a great many advancements -- they introduced dwarven commerce and engineering to the world, for instance. That doesn't stop the fact that it was created through the tyranny of mages over the non-magical... and provides plenty of evidence for what happens when mages rule (and thus why the non-magical might be leery today). Any moralizing you want to mix into that is kind of beside the point.

So you are saying the Roman empire and even Republican Rome was not classes ruling tyrannically over people?  Before the Imperial period, we had Senators and equestrians who ruled over people simply because of their birth.  After that we had Imperial dynasties that likened themselves to gods complete with temples to themselves simply because of the position in birth (or being adopted).  It was the tyranny of the elite over the mundane.  It was the same thing.

[blothulfur]

The Qun knows not destiny, only inevitability and purpose.

Normal insanity service has resumed.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Bad King wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Bad King wrote...

Without mages, Ferelden would stand no chance against the Darkspawn.

How's that?  You could conceivably kill Wynne, not have Morrigan at the final battle, not be a mage yourself, side with the Templars... and still defeat the Blight.

The Grey warden joining requires mages, so if there were no mages then alas no wardens. And if it wasn't for Connor being a mage, Eamon probably would have died. No Eamon = no landsmeet support = no political unity in Ferelden. Also Wynne warned the circle about Loghain's treachery so she isn't as pointless as you make out. And don't forget Flemeth's protection of the Grey Warden treaties.

Well... If you want to put it like that..... No mages= No Blight= Ferelden would never have gone through a civil war

Assuming that the Tevinters were responsible for the Blights, and we have no evidence they were. What we do know is that mages have been instrumental in fighting the Blights and in defending the land against the Qunari incursion during the New Exalted Marches. No mages=everyone being under Qunari rule.

[SnowHeart1]

David Gaider wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...
You are using the Tevinter Imperium like it is some curse word.  We had a more a less real life example of the Tevinter Imperium (sans the magic of course) with the Roman empire.  It had the slavery and all those vices as well.  We still however treat the age of the Roman Empire as a great period or learning, culture, and all that jazz.

And? Yes, the Tevinter Imperium no doubt brought a great many advancements -- they introduced dwarven commerce and engineering to the world, for instance. That doesn't stop the fact that it was created through the tyranny of mages over the non-magical... and provides plenty of evidence for what happens when mages rule (and thus why the non-magical might be leery today). Any moralizing you want to mix into that is kind of beside the point.

Well, to play devil's advocate, why shouldn't mages have ruled? They had the power to put together a nation and protect the people within it, and presumably more education and knowledge than 99% of the rest of the people. Add to that the benefits and then compare the negatives to other large empires that did the same thing but without magic, and I just see using magic as using another tool, as someone else might use mastery of the blade and horse and military tactics.

[_Somebody]

SnowHeart1 wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...
You are using the Tevinter Imperium like it is some curse word.  We had a more a less real life example of the Tevinter Imperium (sans the magic of course) with the Roman empire.  It had the slavery and all those vices as well.  We still however treat the age of the Roman Empire as a great period or learning, culture, and all that jazz.

And? Yes, the Tevinter Imperium no doubt brought a great many advancements -- they introduced dwarven commerce and engineering to the world, for instance. That doesn't stop the fact that it was created through the tyranny of mages over the non-magical... and provides plenty of evidence for what happens when mages rule (and thus why the non-magical might be leery today). Any moralizing you want to mix into that is kind of beside the point.

Well, to play devil's advocate, why shouldn't mages have ruled? They had the power to put together a nation and protect the people within it, and presumably more education and knowledge than 99% of the rest of the people. Add to that the benefits and then compare the negatives to other large empires that did the same thing but without magic, and I just see using magic as using another tool, as someone else might use mastery of the blade and horse and military tactics.

It was when they went into the golden city I tell ya. Were it not for that, then the Imperium would still be number one by the time of DAO.

Modifié par Somebody, 03 février 2011 - 05:06 .

[Herr Uhl]

SnowHeart1 wrote...

Well, to play devil's advocate, why shouldn't mages have ruled? They had the power to put together a nation and protect the people within it, and presumably more education and knowledge than 99% of the rest of the people. Add to that the benefits and then compare the negatives to other large empires that did the same thing but without magic, and I just see using magic as using another tool, as someone else might use mastery of the blade and horse and military tactics.

They did, people had a march and killed them and still bear a grudge. And they still do in some places.

[David Gaider]

silentassassin264 wrote...
So you are saying the Roman empire and even Republican Rome was not classes ruling tyrannically over people?

When did I say anything about the Roman Empire?

Before the Imperial period, we had Senators and equestrians who ruled over people simply because of their birth.  After that we had Imperial dynasties that likened themselves to gods complete with temples to themselves simply because of the position in birth (or being adopted).  It was the tyranny of the elite over the mundane.  It was the same thing.

And what's your point? Did I say "tyranny is bad"? If anything, tyranny certainly gives those who are ruled a clear reason to dislike the tyrannical. Please stop putting words into my mouth.

SnowHeart1 wrote...
Well, to play devil's advocate, why shouldn't mages have ruled? They had the power to put together a nation and protect the people within it, and presumably more education and knowledge than 99% of the rest of the people. Add to that the benefits and then compare the negatives to other large empires that did the same thing but without magic, and I just see using magic as using another tool, as someone else might use mastery of the blade and horse and military tactics.

Sure. Mages are a superior breed of people, who just use the superior tools put at their disposal. I can't imagine why anyone who wasn't a mage would find that objectionable.

Modifié par David Gaider, 03 février 2011 - 05:08 .

[elfdwarf]

about dalish keeper who are elven mages leader

[Herr Uhl]

silentassassin264 wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

And? Yes, the Tevinter Imperium no doubt brought a great many advancements -- they introduced dwarven commerce and engineering to the world, for instance. That doesn't stop the fact that it was created through the tyranny of mages over the non-magical... and provides plenty of evidence for what happens when mages rule (and thus why the non-magical might be leery today). Any moralizing you want to mix into that is kind of beside the point.

So you are saying the Roman empire and even Republican Rome was not classes ruling tyrannically over people?  Before the Imperial period, we had Senators and equestrians who ruled over people simply because of their birth.  After that we had Imperial dynasties that likened themselves to gods complete with temples to themselves simply because of the position in birth (or being adopted).  It was the tyranny of the elite over the mundane.  It was the same thing.

What is your point, that tyranny is inevitable and thus they should have mages in power? Most of Thedas is scared of that prospect, either due to real events or exaggerations of the Tevinter Imperium. They like the way they're now governed and want to keep it that way.

[SnowHeart1]

Herr Uhl wrote...

They did, people had a march and killed them and still bear a grudge. And they still do in some places.

Which is great! Just goes to show magic isn't invincible and, if the oppression is terrible enough, then it can be countered. Which just takes me bac to my original point: the Circles are not justifiable for the purpose of oppressing and imprisoning mages... they are justifiable for the purpose of protecting people from demons/abominations.

[AlexXIV]

Somebody wrote...
It was when they went into the golden city I tell ya. Were it not for that, then the Imperium would still be number one by the time of DAO.

Always reminds me of WW2. Bad as it was but it took a world war for humankind to develop sense of humanity (United Nations, NATO, etc.).

Modifié par AlexXIV, 03 février 2011 - 05:12 .

[Bad King]

elfdwarf wrote...

about dalish keeper who are elven mages leader

That's actually a very good point. The Dalish are perfectly happy to be ruled over by mages.