1283 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

the_one_54321 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
As for mage liberation, the entire debate here has been between two sides that clearly won't agree on the matter. Loyaltists vs. Libertarians, perhaps. I simply don't see the benefits of oppressing an entire group of people who have proven necessary to beat back the Qunari and have aided against the Blights.

You know, a number of us on the "loyalist" side have conceded numerous times that a more effective system could certainly be possible. I'm actually rather baffled as to why the "libertarians" seem addamant on the rufusal that mages pose a danger simply by being. Neither side of things are based on difficult or complex concepts.

Ian has stressed possible solutions for policing people with a law enforcement of mages and non-mages and I have mentioned that there's a difference between properly training mages and arguing against what the Chantry does to them. People are arguing against the idea that mages should be imprisoned and oppressed because they possess magical ability, not against properly training them to use their powers or having a taskforce to deal with anyone who breaks the law.

the_one_54321 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Anyone can be possessed - anyone. People, animals, corpses, even trees.

Certainly, but none of those things can actively access the fade and bring demons over. Only mages can do that.

Wrong. The Veil can be weakened as a result of excessive deaths - as evidenced by the weak Veil that resulted when the armies murdered two towns of people who converted to the Qun during the New Exalted Marches:

"As each year passed, the Chantry pushed further and further into the qunari lines. Dealing with those of the local populace which had converted to the qunari religion proved difficult, especially as some of these had lived under the qun now for generations, and the response by many armies was simply to exterminate all those who had converted. Officially the Chantry denies this, claiming most converts fled north into Rivain and Par Vollen, but the mass graves at Nocen Fields and Marnus Pell attest otherwise. Indeed, so many were slain at Marnus Pell that the Veil is said to be permanently sundered, the ruins still plagued by restless corpses to this day."

Modifié par LobselVith8, 10 février 2011 - 08:15 .

[the_one_54321]

LobselVith8 wrote...
People are arguing against the idea that mages should be imprisoned and oppressed because they possess magical ability, not against properly training them to use their powers or having a taskforce to deal with anyone who breaks the law.

But that is exactly why they should be oppressed.
Has the whole "not created equal therefore not deserving of equal treatment" thing been summarily swept under the rug?

LobselVith8 wrote...
Wrong. The Veil can be weakened as a result of excessive deaths

Also true, but mostly irrelivant. The examples of this that we've seen imply that such occurences create dangerous places. Not that they pose a direct or immediate danger to poeple in the way a possessed mage or other person/body might. A mage can release demons anywhere at any time (with proper material/ability and so on). Damage to the fade is always localized and takes something either very large or spanning enough time. The two instances of spirits crossing the veil are incredibly different from each other.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 10 février 2011 - 08:19 .

[Ziggeh]

LobselVith8 wrote...
I suppose it boils down to an issue of whether this is an example of the need for templars or an example of how badly turns can result because of templars.

It's very definitely an example of flaws in the current system.

[Taleroth]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

Too bad the request doesn't take with Alistair on the throne. I swear to science, it better not be an element of the imported data.

If it didn't register with DA:O, it likely isn't going to be imported. I got the Magi boon recognized with Anora as Queen proclaiming it before the audience in the royal ceremony, along with a hardened Alistair and a Grey Warden Loghain in attendance.

It only registers with Anora.  Alistair will proclaim it, but then the game seems to forget about it immediately.  Irving comments when Anora does it, but not Alistair.  It's a bug.

I'm hoping there's not content relating to it that I'll be locked out of in DA2 just because of a DAO bug.

[Ziggeh]

the_one_54321 wrote...
Has the whole "not created equal therefore not deserving of equal treatment" thing been summarily swept under the rug?

Personally I don't think even equally dictates equal rights, that it's not inherent. I think they're applied by empathy and prevailing morality.

[moilami]

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

A mage seems confidant that a group of mages can handle freedom responsibly and without creating a danger? Oh, no bias there. Nope, none whatsoever.
That was very sarcastic and I apologize if I overdid it. The point is that any one persons assurances of protection, of responsibility, of effectiveness, of whatever, are unreliable at best. Thoroughly dangerous at worst.
The fact remains that mages are not the same as other people and from what I have read, no one has provided any concrete reason why they need to be treated the same. Yes, sentience has been brought up, and the notion of them also being people. (really the same argument in different words)
However I will counter with this:
1. Mages pose a potential threat to those around them simply by existing. I am also claiming that the assertion that there is no evidence of this is completely bogus. The incident in the mage tower serves as concrete evidence at the very least.
2. Mages are not equal to other men and do not warrant any special need for equal treatment. They look after their own well being, as can be seen quite clearly in the numerous instances witnessed where mages, individuals or groups, rebel against the system, sometimes with the result of causing injury and death to others.

So you guys seem to be saying that all Mages are dangerous right? So I propose an idea. Let all the Mages go, and let them live on a far away island somewhere.

The other countries won't really have to deal with those trouble some mages, I'm sure the countries will be just fine without healing magic, and pretty much the greatest weapons on the planet that will ever exist in Dragon Age.

While the Mages will start a new country, where they'll make new little mages, and live their lives happily, developing, and discovering new magics, and sciences. While they make a fortune selling herbal remedies, and magical items to the other countries....
Oh and invade the **** out of everyone once their ready. 

See? Its a win-win situation. 

An excellent plan. I highly approve.

[Ziggeh]

LobselVith8 wrote...

As for mage liberation, the entire debate here has been between two sides that clearly won't agree on the matter. Loyaltists vs. Libertarians, perhaps.

I'm not on a side, I'm just a massive pedant.

[moilami]

Ziggeh wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
Has the whole "not created equal therefore not deserving of equal treatment" thing been summarily swept under the rug?

Personally I don't think even equally dictates equal rights, that it's not inherent. I think they're applied by empathy and prevailing morality.

I escaped from the circle

[Taleroth]

Ziggeh wrote...

I'm not on a side, I'm just a massive pedant.

SICKO!

I like what was said earlier about an independent police force.  Even individual national control would be better.

[moilami]

Ziggeh wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

As for mage liberation, the entire debate here has been between two sides that clearly won't agree on the matter. Loyaltists vs. Libertarians, perhaps.

I'm not on a side, I'm just a massive pedant.

I think the dev trolled us in this thread.


Edit: And if he did, I lolled. A lot.

Modifié par moilami, 10 février 2011 - 08:25 .

[the_one_54321]

moilami wrote...
I escaped from the circle

With any luck, the Templars are already tracking you with your phylactery. :happy:

[Ziggeh]

moilami wrote...

I think the dev trolled us in this thread.

I actually think they have pretty much the same interests as myself. They value the ambiguity and have been arguing against straightforward positions without providing evidence for either argument.

[Taleroth]

If they value ambiguity, I don't think they're doing it very well. DAO lacked in that department heavily. And making sure you have an apostate in your family doesn't do well for endearing the player to the Templar's argument.

[Elsariel]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Elsariel wrote...

I know I've said this before, but I'll say it again:

If mages were not under the thumb of the Chantry, then Uldred would not have gotten so many supporters within the circle to "fight for their freedom" in his bid for power (one could argue that Uldred himself may not have went down that path...) , meaning that its likely the circle would not have been overrun with demons to begin with.

Chantry oppression of mages is one of the causes for the tragedy to begin with.

The demon problem was contained thanks to them being cooped up in the circle. Imagine that 5 of the people that became abominations became it in public, what would then have been the damage?

Before the circle, abominations going berserk was something to be expected, not so much now.

It's kind of a circular argument, don't you think?  Yes, it was contained because they were in the tower, but the rebellion happened in the first place because of Chantry oppression.   Why can't the mages employ their own means of controlling themselves and abominations?  Why must it be up to the Chantry to rule over them and instill fear into the hearts of non-mages?

[moilami]

Ziggeh wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Actually no.  If you will remember Uldred had almost got done building an army of abominations that would absolutely have PWNED the templars in the tower, and then you would have had a massive outbreak.  Not only did the circle tower system *create* the environment that made the indicident at the circle possible, but they completely failed at containment.  Had it not been for the Grey Warden who just happened to stop by to get help with his treaties, it would have been a total disaster.

Would it? Wynne seemed pretty confident that her barrier would hold back anything in the tower, and I'd consider it odd if the building hadn't been designed to contain just such an event.

What has been created by magic can be destroyed by magic. The tower can be physically destroyed too. Else things would go silly. Templars hiring dwarves to break the wall near Wynne's barrier if Wynne got killed, the barrier existing in the world forever.

[Ziggeh]

Taleroth wrote...
If they value ambiguity, I don't think they're doing it very well. DAO lacked in that department heavily.

How so? They give us enough information to let us think it's flawed and troubling, but not enough to come up with a viable alternative. Heck, there are arguments in this thread about who actually controls the tower. There isn't strong evidence in any direction.

Taleroth wrote...
And making sure you have an apostate in your family doesn't do well for endearing the player to the Templar's argument.

Unless we're not given the option of siding with one or the other, I'm really rather certain they'll be attempting to balance that element of the eqaution. Rather looking forward to it myself.

[Sylvius the Mad]

the_one_54321 wrote...

The only strict reason I can think of for why they shouldn't is that the potential for demonic possessions poses a threat to themselves as well.

But they're already at risk of possession even if they're not free, so the added marginal risk associated with freedom is smaller in comparison.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 10 février 2011 - 09:00 .

[Taleroth]

Ziggeh wrote...

Taleroth wrote...
If they value ambiguity, I don't think they're doing it very well. DAO lacked in that department heavily.

How so? They give us enough information to let us think it's flawed and troubling, but not enough to come up with a viable alternative. Heck, there are arguments in this thread about who actually controls the tower. There isn't strong evidence in any direction.

 We can come up with a viable alternative.  They actually never really made the case that it was all that necessary.

The Warden goes in and clears everything up without incident.  No mention of further abominations, none missed.  Even Jowan, a Blood Mage, is sympathetic.  With his only genuine crime having nothing to do with Blood Magic, instead being part of Loghain's planning and mundane poison.  The resulting trouble is a mage, yes, but the only people he ends up hurting are nobody they even bother giving a name.  But it's resolved best by Mages, too.  It's like it never happened once resolved.

The only guy in the entire game who genuinely seems to think Mages are a danger is Cullen, and he's displayed as a raving loon by that point.

Modifié par Taleroth, 10 février 2011 - 08:50 .

[Ziggeh]

Elsariel wrote...
Why can't the mages employ their own means of controlling themselves and abominations?  Why must it be up to the Chantry to rule over them and instill fear into the hearts of non-mages?

We have reasons to believe they do, to one extent or another, but I'd say the main issues in self policing are trust and funding.

[LobselVith8]

Taleroth wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

Too bad the request doesn't take with Alistair on the throne. I swear to science, it better not be an element of the imported data.

If it didn't register with DA:O, it likely isn't going to be imported. I got the Magi boon recognized with Anora as Queen proclaiming it before the audience in the royal ceremony, along with a hardened Alistair and a Grey Warden Loghain in attendance.

It only registers with Anora.  Alistair will proclaim it, but then the game seems to forget about it immediately.  Irving comments when Anora does it, but not Alistair.  It's a bug.

I'm hoping there's not content relating to it that I'll be locked out of in DA2 just because of a DAO bug.

Gaider said the boons may be picked up later on when I inquired why the Magi boon wasn't recognized in Awakening - so it's possible DA2 might address them (I see no reason why not in terms of the Magi boon, especially if it's going to deal with mages and templars as it appears to). If the flags weren't properly set to recognize it with Alistair, it's not likely to be imported in DA2 or any following sequels (and there seems to be no intention of making a patch to correct the bugged Magi boon or elven Bann boon).

the_one_54321 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

People are arguing against the idea that mages should be imprisoned and oppressed because they possess magical ability, not against properly training them to use their powers or having a taskforce to deal with anyone who breaks the law.

But that is exactly why they should be oppressed.
Has the whole "not created equal therefore not deserving of equal treatment" thing been summarily swept under the rug?

I don't think anyone is taking seriously the notion that people not being the same means that they don't deserve to be treated as equals. The current system seems to be well on its way to leading to an all-out war between the templars and the mages.

the_one_54321 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Wrong. The Veil can be weakened as a result of excessive deaths

Also true, but mostly irrelivant. The examples of this that we've seen imply that such occurences create dangerous places. Not that they pose a direct or immediate danger to poeple in the way a possessed mage or other person/body might. A mage can release demons anywhere at any time (with proper material/ability and so on). Damage to the fade is always localized and takes something either very large or spanning enough time. The two instances of spirits crossing the veil are incredibly different from each other.

A mage would need to understand demonology in order to summon demons. You also seem to think that mages would become possessed with little effort, but if that were the case, we wouldn't have Grey Warden mages or the mages beating back the advanced technology of the Qunari.If demons were able to take over any mage, then all mages would be possessed by demons. A mage also wouldn't have the option to intimidate the Desire Demon of Connor's if mages were all unable to resist possession.

[Failbox]

I make it a rule to kill every mage I come across, if the option is given.

[Ziggeh]

Taleroth wrote...
We can come up with a viable alternative.

Shoot, yet to hear one.

Taleroth wrote...
The only guy in the entire game who genuinely seems to think Mages are a danger is Cullen, and he's displayed as a raving loon by that point.

Irving, Wynne, Anders, Greagoir. They all comment on the potential dangers. Then we have, like, the actual dangers. The people of redcliffe probably think magic is pretty dangerous.

[Eclipse_9990]

Ziggeh wrote...

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

So you guys seem to be saying that all Mages are dangerous right? So I propose an idea. Let all the Mages go, and let them live on a far away island somewhere.

The other countries won't really have to deal with those trouble some mages, I'm sure the countries will be just fine without healing magic, and pretty much the greatest weapons on the planet that will ever exist in Dragon Age.

While the Mages will start a new country, where they'll make new little mages, and live their lives happily, developing, and discovering new magics, and sciences. While they make a fortune selling herbal remedies, and magical items to the other countries....
Oh and invade the **** out of everyone once their ready. 

See? Its a win-win situation.

Aside from the whole "create a nation of powerful beings who hate you" thing, mages are born to non mages, which means you have to deal with new ones all the time. Plus, magic is a pretty useful thing. They're a valuable resource, especially in a rumble.

Well thats another way for the new Mage country to make money. Boarding schools! 

[the_one_54321]

LobselVith8 wrote...
I don't think anyone is taking seriously the notion that people not being the same means that they don't deserve to be treated as equals. The current system seems to be well on its way to leading to an all-out war between the templars and the mages.

I know that at least 3 posters, including myself, are.

Here's the thing: just because a concept appeals to common sense does not mean it is a sound concept. In fact most concepts that appeal to common sense are found to be unsound when examined thoroughly.

More specifically for this fictitious issue, there is no real reason why the mages and Templars should not be at war with each other. Strictly speaking, for the most part the only purpose they serve to each other is as a threat. Again, the only real reason I can think of as to why mages don't just try to form a dictatorship over all people is because there are groups of them that recognize that they threat they pose is also potentially to themselves.