1283 réponses à ce sujet

[Guywhoiam]

atheelogos wrote...

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

atheelogos wrote...

weirdopo wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

What is the logical support for the non-aggression principle when the other side can become aggressive even if it does not intend to? Mages don't often choose to become abominations.

I think mages do indeed choose to become abominations because the daemon promises them that it will make them more powerful. There are of course, intenses where a mage would not want to be abomified. But I think the majority do. Personally.

wow..... just wow........ That's an extreme thing to say. I recently played the first game and I don't remember any mages who wanted to become an abomination. Did you play the first game? All the mages I can remember were forced to become one.

Well technically before you fought uldred, the mage needed to be tortured, and only after he nodded yes after Uldred said "do you accept the gift that I offer?" did they make him into an abomination. 

So being tortured into submission equals wanting to become an abomination?

By that logic a soldier tortured into giving the enemy intel wanted to betray his country.

Please don't sit there and defend his silly comment. What he said was wrong plane and simple.

And what you said was a horrid simplification of the situation. You failed to take into account their feelings and true beliefs. Do you think they would have chosen to become abominations without the torture? I don't think so.

Conclusion: An overwhelming amount of Mages, maybe even all mage, do not actively seek to become abominations.

Ok, let me be a little more clear. They probably do not want to become abomination, but they may allow a daemon into them because they think it will make them become more powerful and that they can control it. The end result is that they basically choose to become an abomination by taking the risk.

[the_one_54321]

IanPolaris wrote...
I contest this.  We have no evidence either in the game or game lore that says that mages can spontaneously and against their will be possessed by demons unless:

1.  The Veil is sundered (which is not the normal case)...and in that case anyone can be possessed potentially against their will.

2.  The Mage voluntarily enters a contest of will against a demon (or demons) in the fade and loses (which is what summoning seems to be).

Also no one has shown that the natural abomination rate is anything other than vanishingly miniscule and certainly not enough to violate the non-agression principle.

-Polaris

We have several examples in the game. What you're claiming is plain false. For one, Connor is a child, and was tricked. The mages were tortured by Uldred until they accepted. And the templar under the influence of the Desire demon is an example that it is at least possible to trick an adult male into a contract, even if he may not have been tricked himself.

To claim that these are not instances of violating a persons will is like claiming it's ok if you get the girl so drunk that she wont remember what you did to her in the morning. Or taking advantage of the ignorance of a small child. Which is exactly what happened to Conner.

And all it takes to invalidate the non-aggression principle is a single instance of aggression that occurs against the aggressor's will. This is a purely logical argument and individual counter example is sufficient to invalidate.

[LobselVith8]

the_one_54321 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
I contest this.  We have no evidence either in the game or game lore that says that mages can spontaneously and against their will be possessed by demons unless:

1.  The Veil is sundered (which is not the normal case)...and in that case anyone can be possessed potentially against their will.

2.  The Mage voluntarily enters a contest of will against a demon (or demons) in the fade and loses (which is what summoning seems to be).

Also no one has shown that the natural abomination rate is anything other than vanishingly miniscule and certainly not enough to violate the non-agression principle.

-Polaris

We have several examples in the game. What you're claiming is plain false. For one, Connor is a child, and was tricked. The mages were tortured by Uldred until they accepted. And the templar under the influence of the Desire demon is an example that it is at least possible to trick an adult male into a contract, even if he may not have been tricked himself.

Connor wasn't forced to become an abomination against his will, he made a deal with a demon. And the Veil is a problem for the Circle Tower - it's explicitly mentioned to be weak in the U.S. for the Magi Hero of Ferelden, which is why it's rebuilt elsewhere.

the_one_54321 wrote...

To claim that these are not instances of violating a persons will is like claiming it's ok if you get the girl so drunk that she wont remember what you did to her in the morning. Or taking advantage of the ignorance of a small child. Which is exactly what happened to Conner.

Except the desire demon didn't force Connor to make a deal, which is why the Warden can free Connor in the Fade.

the_one_54321 wrote...

And all it takes to invalidate the non-aggression principle is a single instance of aggression that occurs against the aggressor's will. This is a purely logical argument and individual counter example is sufficient to invalidate.

There's nothing more likely to bring about aggression in people than the oppression of them.

[General Malor]

Elton John is dead wrote...

"I'm a Templar and I'm awesome because I wear a helmet and have cookies."

With my Templar army - we kill everyone:

Dalish - dead.
Undead - dead.
Ferelden - dead.
Darkspawn - dead.
Orcs - dead.
Humans - dead.
Elves - dead.
Dwarfs - dead.
Qunari - dead.
Dead people - dead.
Dragons - dead.
Undead Mathias - dead.
Grey Wardens - dead.
Templars - dead.
Me - dead.
Everyone - dead.

I'm with this guy. Aside from killing the Dalish and Mages. Everyone else? Yes.

[Ziggeh]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Connor wasn't forced to become an abomination against his will, he made a deal with a demon.

Surely that depends on the nature of the deal?

[rage-monk]

Depends on the mage (or wizard or whatever you wanna call them).

[Fenn_]

I like mages that don't try to kill me.

[IanPolaris]

the_one_54321 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
I contest this.  We have no evidence either in the game or game lore that says that mages can spontaneously and against their will be possessed by demons unless:

1.  The Veil is sundered (which is not the normal case)...and in that case anyone can be possessed potentially against their will.

2.  The Mage voluntarily enters a contest of will against a demon (or demons) in the fade and loses (which is what summoning seems to be).

Also no one has shown that the natural abomination rate is anything other than vanishingly miniscule and certainly not enough to violate the non-agression principle.

-Polaris

We have several examples in the game. What you're claiming is plain false. For one, Connor is a child, and was tricked. The mages were tortured by Uldred until they accepted. And the templar under the influence of the Desire demon is an example that it is at least possible to trick an adult male into a contract, even if he may not have been tricked himself.

As Lob said, Conner still voluntarily became on abomination.  Otherwise the ritual would not have worked.  All that is required is consent.  Yes, the demon tricked Conner into giving consent (and if it weren't for the Circle Tower system, Conner would have had proper tutalage and would have known better), but his consent was given and the game explicitly states this.  So it's not a valid counter-example.

As for the tower, the veil is thin/sundered in the tower already (already making these invalid counter-examples), and it at least appears that the Templar did willingly accept the desire demon as his surrogate wife (read the reprimand he got for 'chasing tail'), and finally in the Harrowing Chamber, it took a powerful mind-control ritual to 'force consent' and even that didn't work until the mages at already been tortured to the breaking point...which illustrates how HARD it is for a demon to possess a mage (or anyone really) that doesn't agree to it.

To claim that these are not instances of violating a persons will is like claiming it's ok if you get the girl so drunk that she wont remember what you did to her in the morning. Or taking advantage of the ignorance of a small child. Which is exactly what happened to Conner.

It still involved consent.

And all it takes to invalidate the non-aggression principle is a single instance of aggression that occurs against the aggressor's will. This is a purely logical argument and individual counter example is sufficient to invalidate.

You haven't given a valid counter-example.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Ziggeh wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Connor wasn't forced to become an abomination against his will, he made a deal with a demon.

Surely that depends on the nature of the deal?

Abomination-Conner tells you what the deal was when speaking as an abomination.  In return for the Demon interfering with the poison enough to let the Arl live, the demon gets to sit on the throne and send armies out to conquer the world.

Essentially, "Let me in and I will save your father's life.  If you don't, there is nothing I can do."

The demon even has the chutzpah to call it a "fair deal" which tells you how demons regard deals and 'consent', but nevertheless Conner did explicitly give consent and the game explicitly states this (through Irving) who says that this is the only reason the ritual works.

-Polaris

[Ziggeh]

IanPolaris wrote...

and finally in the Harrowing Chamber, it took a powerful mind-control ritual to 'force consent' and even that didn't work until the mages at already been tortured to the breaking point...which illustrates how HARD it is for a demon to possess a mage (or anyone really) that doesn't agree to it.

Probably senior mages, who've been trained in protecting themselves from the very thing. It illustrates that it can be hard.

[micheal001]

I'd like to play a evil mage and live in a mages tower that must destroy the grey wardens or any that oppose me in Dragon Age 3. Then I will be happy not the soft rubber room game story they have now.

[IanPolaris]

Ziggeh wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

and finally in the Harrowing Chamber, it took a powerful mind-control ritual to 'force consent' and even that didn't work until the mages at already been tortured to the breaking point...which illustrates how HARD it is for a demon to possess a mage (or anyone really) that doesn't agree to it.

Probably senior mages, who've been trained in protecting themselves from the very thing. It illustrates that it can be hard.

Facts not in evidence. All we know is that ALL the surviving mages were taken there.  Thus it illustrates that it is HARD to force possession on a mage and everything must be in your favor.  You can't say, "it's just the senior mages' because we know that many non-senior mages did survive and so presumably were up there (which contraindicates your statement actually).

-Polaris

[Ziggeh]

IanPolaris wrote...

Facts not in evidence. All we know is that ALL the surviving mages were taken there.  Thus it illustrates that it is HARD to force possession on a mage and everything must be in your favor.  You can't say, "it's just the senior mages' because we know that many non-senior mages did survive and so presumably were up there (which contraindicates your statement actually).

I'm not saying it's just the senior mages that got 'bomed.

I'm saying we have one example in which it was hard. From this we can draw the conclusion that it can be hard. That it is hard to force possession on that mage.

In order to say "it is hard" , that it's hard to force on "a mage", we would need to see all of the mages go through the same process, and even then it's only mages who have proven resistance previously.

[IanPolaris]

Ziggeh wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Facts not in evidence. All we know is that ALL the surviving mages were taken there.  Thus it illustrates that it is HARD to force possession on a mage and everything must be in your favor.  You can't say, "it's just the senior mages' because we know that many non-senior mages did survive and so presumably were up there (which contraindicates your statement actually).

I'm not saying it's just the senior mages that got 'bomed.

I'm saying we have one example in which it was hard. From this we can draw the conclusion that it can be hard. That it is hard to force possession on that mage.

In order to say "it is hard" , that it's hard to force on "a mage", we would need to see all of the mages go through the same process, and even then it's only mages who have proven resistance previously.

It's not just that one example (and Uldred was forced to use that difficult ritual no matter how 'skilled' the mage was and under the same condition.  However, when you combine that with the fact we don't see a single case of spontaneous possession of mages against that mage's will that don't either involve fade combat (summoning) or a sundered veil (in which case everyone is at risk), AND that many societies deal quite well with mages living side by side with mundanes to no apparent ill effect, and given that the cases of abominations we do see either involve trickery or desperation or stupidity (and the last two are as often as not CAUSED by the Chantry/Templars), then I think it's safe to say that yes, it's HARD to possess a mage that doesn't want to be.

In fact you see that in your own harrowing.  Mouse is more than powerful enough a pride demon to kill you outright, but that's not good enough if you don't let him in.  The moment you tell him the gig is up, it's over...and in your case the Pride demon would rather lurk about and 'try again'....and that's a case were the Templars deliberately set you up to fail (as multiple sources in the fade including the Valor spirit tell you).

-Polaris

[Ziggeh]

IanPolaris wrote...

It's not just that one example (and Uldred was forced to use that difficult ritual no matter how 'skilled' the mage was and under the same condition.  However, when you combine that with the fact we don't see a single case of spontaneous possession of mages against that mage's will that don't either involve fade combat (summoning) or a sundered veil (in which case everyone is at risk), AND that many societies deal quite well with mages living side by side with mundanes to no apparent ill effect, and given that the cases of abominations we do see either involve trickery or desperation or stupidity (and the last two are as often as not CAUSED by the Chantry/Templars), then I think it's safe to say that yes, it's HARD to possess a mage that doesn't want to be.

In fact you see that in your own harrowing.  Mouse is more than powerful enough a pride demon to kill you outright, but that's not good enough if you don't let him in.  The moment you tell him the gig is up, it's over...and in your case the Pride demon would rather lurk about and 'try again'....and that's a case were the Templars deliberately set you up to fail (as multiple sources in the fade including the Valor spirit tell you).

It's a compelling case, and I don't disagree that it's likely. But I disagree it's safe. Each of those elements requires an assumption to meet the statement, and while these are not unreasonable, they aren't evidenced.

[Wowlock]

I think the oppression seems like a ''safer'' choice. Yes , I don't like the style of the Circle ( bunch of mages under templars eyes , locked in a tower ) but they have their reasons I suppose. Sane mages , probably won't be a lot in that kind of envoirmen. Imprisoned for their whole life in a tower , can really effect mages badly.



Should they release the 'sane' and 'in control' ones out of tower instead of them turning to Blood Magic and try to espace ? Yes. Should they leave every mage out and let them do whatever they like with their superior power ? not so much.



Well all I say , there are many kinds of people and some are too dangerous and should keep and eye on them but not forcing them to dark path. I know if Templars wouldn't abuse their hold on mages, ''Apostates'' would never exist ( at least not like they are now . Power crazy Blood Mage number would have been decreased )



Well I will wait and see if I can help the circle and templar to be more ''open'' with eachother in the Kirkwall. Will be tough but hey , what are the champions for ?

[the_one_54321]

IanPolaris, your argument amounts to willful ignorance, at this point. Very clear presentations of how demons exert their will against mages have been given. You counter arguments have been nothing but "I choose to not accept what you present," and that is meaningless.

[IanPolaris]

the_one_54321 wrote...

IanPolaris, your argument amounts to willful ignorance, at this point. Very clear presentations of how demons exert their will against mages have been given. You counter arguments have been nothing but "I choose to not accept what you present," and that is meaningless.

Evidence would help.  You say that there have been very clear presentations.  I haven't seen any, so perhaps you could enlighten us rather than claiming that I am "willfully ignorant".

-Polaris

Edit:  My counterarguments are based on clear special cases (such as the viel being sundered) or when the mage deliberately puts his own soul in jeapordy by contesting a demon(s) in the fade (which is what summoning really is).  In all other cases, the mage can only become possessed if he allows it (which is why the Conner demon needed to resort to trickery.  You don't make your case by dismissing my arguments.  Try addressing them.

Modifié par IanPolaris, 13 février 2011 - 10:04 .

[IanPolaris]

[dp]

[Gorthaur X]

I gave up trying to read the entire thread several pages ago, but really, from the evidence presented by the game, it seems most likely that the Chantry controls mages not because of their potential to do harm, but rather because of their potential to do good.

The exact likelihood of Abominations occurring in a world where mages are free may be difficult to guess, but it's much easier to see how much mages could benefit a medieval community. A single village mage can mend broken bones in moments, cure debilitating illnesses, and save lives more efficiently than even modern medicine is capable of. They can summon storms in times of drought.  They can perform, or help perform, many tasks in a fraction of the time it would take for regular people to accomplish the same. Given the freedom to coexist freely among the common populace, mages would very easily become the most beloved members - indeed, cornerstones - of any community they choose to become part of.

All of which would be great for both mages and the common people, but horrible for the Chantry and the nobility. The former doesn't want to compete against people who can actually perform the sorts of feats that priests can only tell their flock to pray for: how much reverence will you have for the church of an absent god when it was the local witch who cured your infant child's pneumonia, or healed your husband's broken leg so he could harvest the year's crop? The latter, on the other hand, doesn't want the power mages represent distributed equally among the populace. Nobility holds its position by withholding access to resources from the commoners, including the resources to take up arms against the upper classes: a villager armed with farming tools is no match against an armored soldier, much less a knight in full plate. But if some of those commoners can set people on fire with their minds? Well, consider that something as simple as the crossbow was, at one point, banned by the historical Catholic church (without much effect, mind you) for the deadly power it put in the hands of the common folk.

Mages are a threat to the status quo, and to the entrenched power of the upper classes. Not so much to the regular people.

Modifié par Gorthaur X, 13 février 2011 - 12:10 .

[asindre]

IanPolaris wrote...

You can't say, "it's just the senior mages' because we know that many non-senior mages did survive and so presumably were up there (which contraindicates your statement actually).

-Polaris

But we can say it's just the circle mages and they get training to help them not get possessed by demons. An apostate without that training might be much easier to possess.

[LobselVith8]

asindre wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

You can't say, "it's just the senior mages' because we know that many non-senior mages did survive and so presumably were up there (which contraindicates your statement actually).

-Polaris

But we can say it's just the circle mages and they get training to help them not get possessed by demons. An apostate without that training might be much easier to possess.

If Morrigan is any indication, that isn't the case. While Wynne's Circle training failed her when it came to realizing that she was in the Fade, Morrigan knew immediately. Clearly, her training aided her in realizing that she was dealing with a demon, and not the real Flemeth. If Morrigan's apostate status meant that she was easy to possess than the Desire Demon would have made the attempt when she is sent to rescue Connor, and that isn't the case.

[asindre]

LobselVith8 wrote...

asindre wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

You can't say, "it's just the senior mages' because we know that many non-senior mages did survive and so presumably were up there (which contraindicates your statement actually).

-Polaris

But we can say it's just the circle mages and they get training to help them not get possessed by demons. An apostate without that training might be much easier to possess.

If Morrigan is any indication, that isn't the case. While Wynne's Circle training failed her when it came to realizing that she was in the Fade, Morrigan knew immediately. Clearly, her training aided her in realizing that she was dealing with a demon, and not the real Flemeth. If Morrigan's apostate status meant that she was easy to possess than the Desire Demon would have made the attempt when she is sent to rescue Connor, and that isn't the case.

Morrigan has been trained by Flemeth so I think she is more powerfull than a normal apostate. I meant apostates like connor who doesn't have any real training. Maybe the Desire Demon tricked Connor because it was just easier than possessing him.
In my original post I didn't mean that all apostates were easy to possess, just that it might be easier because some of them doesn't have any training.
 

Modifié par asindre, 13 février 2011 - 01:46 .

[Ziggeh]

LobselVith8 wrote...

If Morrigan is any indication, that isn't the case.

Call me Mr Picky, but I'm not sure apostates picked and trained by ancient, mysterious, supremely powerful beings are a decent indication of the general level of ability among untrained mages.