1283 réponses à ce sujet

[Sharn01]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Veex wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

I don't parse your objections.  As for "meaningful rate" I admit that linguistically it sounds vague but in principle a number could be put on this.  Frankly I am extremely skeptical that random involuntary abominations happen at all, but I am willing to allow for a one-in-billion chance.  A one-in-billion especially in a midaeval society would not be a meaningful rate I think.  As for "in spite of themselves" what language would you prefer.  My point is that as long as abominations only seem to happen because of an active choice by the mage (unless the Veil is sundered and even then only under extreme duress and mind-control magic that is realistically extremely rare at best) then the non-agression social pact stands (and thus the CIrcle Tower System is morally invalid).

I feel like trying to state a percentage with what little of Thedas' history we can possibly know is a bit futile. Were the number of abominations, blood mages, or other aggressive magics higher before the Chantry was formed? I can't recall exactly, but I was under the impression that during the height of the Tevinter Imperium much of the world of Thedas was ruled by their oppressive magisters.

I think it would be essential to have an accurate history of life preceding and during the Chantry's reign before we can even begin to argue what is just and unjust, much less the percentage of abominations occuring.

Veex,

More information would always be preferable, but I think we can make some observations and some look at some leading indicators from those observations.  You note that Thedas was ruled by oppresive magisters for much of the ancient age, yet they obviously seemed to have little difficulty in dealing with abominations (the magisters were evil for the most part yes, but not insane).

More to the point for nearly 200 years after the Imperium was defeated and the Chantry was an onoging concern (even after the Templars were created even!), it still wasn't considered necessary to place mages in ghettos for public safety.  Mages only got segretated after an open powerplay by an clearly nutty Divine (Ambrosia II) and it was either accept Exile or be slaughtered in an exalted march.

-Polaris

Back then it was deemed neccesary to outlaw magic entirely. All the mages were allowed to do, was lit the eternal fire. So even back then, Mages and magic were a concern.

Speculation on your part, and most likely not accurate.  We know they used their magic for this, we dont know if that is the only thing they used magic for.  I will bet any amount of cash that a dying revered mother would recieve healing magic, so at the very least I think other magic was in use, even if it was controlled, which we are not sure about.

Unfortunately, we do not have enough information, and probably never will ( the Devs like it that way) to take any stance without massive assumptions on our part.  We dont know how often abominations happen, people die constantly in car accidents yet very few are afraid to drive, Pit Bulls hardly ever main or kill people, and when they do they are usually victims of abuse, yet they are outlawed in many places. 

The same probably holds true for Thedas, thousands die in farming accidents every year, but nobles and the chantry will do nothing to improve safety, abominations kill about maybe a dozen people a year, and all mages are locked in a tower.

Modifié par Sharn01, 15 février 2011 - 03:03 .

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Back then it was deemed neccesary to outlaw magic entirely. All the mages were allowed to do, was lit the eternal fire. So even back then, Mages and magic were a concern.

This is false.  Drakon I never outlawed magic.  Quite the contrary.  He did put the Chanty in charge of regulating magic and made magic that was not approved by the Chantry illegal, but that was a far cry from outlawing magic.  As Sharn points out, you don't know that ALL the mages could do was light the eternal flame, and the Codex of the History of the Circle makes it very plan that the early Andrastians did not outlaw magic (nor were mages segretated from mundanes nor was their any preceived reason to do so...and the Templars had already been in existance for about two centuries by this point).

-Polaris

[Lotion Soronarr]

Haussier wrote...

I mean if mouse, in the mage origin, could have just taken you without permission he would have. Then we have the whole uldred (a pride abomination) torturing mages to break their wills so he can force a whatever demon down their throuts. He was at that for weeks on end at the least.

Wrong on both accounts.

First, you cannot say what someone would have or should have done. Especially a creature whos'e thought proceses are alien to you. Mouse was a PRIDE demon. Maybe he was too proud to jsut take someone over by force?
Can you really say it's unlikely or impossible? No, no you can't.

And the mages in the tower weren't there for weeks. The Warden arrives just as the s*** hits the fan.

[Lotion Soronarr]

IanPolaris wrote...
The Chanty obviously believes (or rather they claim to believe anyway) that abominations happen enough that locking away all mages in what is obviously and clearly a regressive system and denying them all legal rights is better than the alternative.

How muhc is "rare"? Or often enough?

Are torandos or floods rare? There are some countries that get his by several disasters each year.
Despite the material loss and loss of life, those countries still stand.

Abominations are like that. Rare enough, but again often enough that you want to do everything in your power to prevent them.

The Chantry has made it perfectly clear they'd rather kill all mages then see them free.
Even Wynne says as much.

If mages were real, so would any government. Your point?

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Uhm... I never said they didn't do just that. I have always been saying they SHOULD do that. Magic is dangerous. It is only logical to lock it away.

 Isn't that the kind of thinking that only permitted seven mages to fight the darkspawn at Ostagar?

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Back then it was deemed neccesary to outlaw magic entirely. All the mages were allowed to do, was lit the eternal fire. So even back then, Mages and magic were a concern.

That's not accurate. Drakon I was motivated by his religious beliefs in a particular Cult of Andraste that he formally established as the religion of his kingdom, which is why he created the Chantry of Andraste, the Order of Templars, and the Circle of Magi. Magic wasn't outlawed, mages were placed under the control of Emperor Drakon I and they were only permitted to use magic under the command of the Chantry.

[LobselVith8]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
The Chanty obviously believes (or rather they claim to believe anyway) that abominations happen enough that locking away all mages in what is obviously and clearly a regressive system and denying them all legal rights is better than the alternative.

How muhc is "rare"? Or often enough?

Are torandos or floods rare? There are some countries that get his by several disasters each year.
Despite the material loss and loss of life, those countries still stand.

Abominations are like that. Rare enough, but again often enough that you want to do everything in your power to prevent them.

So that must explain why the Chantry never bothered to imprison mages until they protested their lack of rights under the Chantry?

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

The Chantry has made it perfectly clear they'd rather kill all mages then see them free.
Even Wynne says as much.

If mages were real, so would any government. Your point?

There are also cases of governments imprisoning people because they were different and thought to be dangerous, but I don't see many condoning those actions these days.

[Haussier]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Wrong on both accounts.

First, you cannot say what someone would have or should have done. Especially a creature whos'e thought proceses are alien to you. Mouse was a PRIDE demon. Maybe he was too proud to jsut take someone over by force?
Can you really say it's unlikely or impossible? No, no you can't.

And the mages in the tower weren't there for weeks. The Warden arrives just as the s*** hits the fan.

I concede the point that demons are more or less alien to us, And that there is no way to know if mouse simply didn't have enough time to take the mage warden by force. 

While we can't know for certain exactly how long the mages survived in the tower with the abominations running amuk. We do know that they were there for some time by our conversation with Greagoir.

Warden~When did you send word to Denerim?
K.C. Greagoir~A while ago, and it worries me. The civil war has no doubt caused much turmoil. Has the chantry been caught up in it? I can only guess.
K.C. Greagoir~Denerim must have recieved our message-- it cannot be much longer.

I would say a round trip even should the Denerim chantry immediatly reply would take almost two weeks.
To be truthful however any argument about "time" in a game like this can only be based upon vague information and assumptions.

PS. Have we established mages as having to actively resist demons or actively accept them to be possessed?

Modifié par Haussier, 15 février 2011 - 03:21 .

[Nashiktal]

The info we have points to at least partial acceptance from the mage. Honestly though its quite fuzzy, and most in game examples we have are from idiots.

[Last Vizard]

Haussier wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Wrong on both accounts.

First, you cannot say what someone would have or should have done. Especially a creature whos'e thought proceses are alien to you. Mouse was a PRIDE demon. Maybe he was too proud to jsut take someone over by force?
Can you really say it's unlikely or impossible? No, no you can't.

And the mages in the tower weren't there for weeks. The Warden arrives just as the s*** hits the fan.

I concede the point that demons are more or less alien to us, And that there is no way to know if mouse simply didn't have enough time to take the mage warden by force. 

While we can't know for certain exactly how long the mages survived in the tower with the abominations running amuk. We do know that they were there for some time by our conversation with Greagoir.

Warden~When did you send word to Denerim?
K.C. Greagoir~A while ago, and it worries me. The civil war has no doubt caused much turmoil. Has the chantry been caught up in it? I can only guess.
K.C. Greagoir~Denerim must have recieved our message-- it cannot be much longer.

I would say a round trip even should the Denerim chantry immediatly reply would take almost two weeks.
To be truthful however any argument about "time" in a game like this can only be based upon vague information and assumptions.

PS. Have we established mages as having to actively resist demons or actively accept them to be possessed?

I think Demons have to follow a set of rules like vampires, you have to agree and let the demon in, then that leads me to ask "what would someone with Maker given powers sell their soul for?" Connor in Redcliff didn't know what he was doing because he hadn't had proper Education.... Uldred was trying to take the quick path to freedom for mages using the help of demons (idiot)  I think this just comes down to what type of person you are, those that play with weiji boards (spelling?), take drugs, smoke and those that don't.

I'll bet that there are very few possessions per population of mages, In Wardens peak DLC the mage had put wards throught the Castle preventing the demons from leaving and the possessed Warden commander..... I think the threat of unwanted possession is very low (uldred tortured them until they said yes and wanted it... kinda like what happened to Dean when he went to hell in Supernatural).

[Buffy-Summers]

We do have a class of people in which seemingly normal people snap and attempt violence



Faisal Shahzad snapped and attempt to create a "fireball" and there was no indication he would snap



Yet we do not condemn the entire population in camps, we try to stop the ones that snap and let those that follow the law have freedom. The only difference is scale.



No matter how you word it, the treatment of mages in the DA universe is outrageous

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
The Chanty obviously believes (or rather they claim to believe anyway) that abominations happen enough that locking away all mages in what is obviously and clearly a regressive system and denying them all legal rights is better than the alternative.

How muhc is "rare"? Or often enough?

Are torandos or floods rare? There are some countries that get his by several disasters each year.
Despite the material loss and loss of life, those countries still stand.

Abominations are like that. Rare enough, but again often enough that you want to do everything in your power to prevent them.

So that must explain why the Chantry never bothered to imprison mages until they protested their lack of rights under the Chantry?

You dont' know the status of the mages before or how they were exactly handeled. So don't talk out of your ass.
Not to mention that even IF they were free for the first 200 years, that doesnt' mean that abominations weren't a problem and mages weren't dangerous. It may very well mean that the Chantry was trying other solutions before, but they didn't end up working as well as the Circles.

Again, you cannot prove me wrong on this...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
If mages were real, so would any government. Your point?

There are also cases of governments imprisoning people because they were different and thought to be dangerous, but I don't see many condoning those actions these days.

Different or dangerous? Because the difference if huge.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Haussier wrote...
I would say a round trip even should the Denerim chantry immediatly reply would take almost two weeks.
To be truthful however any argument about "time" in a game like this can only be based upon vague information and assumptions.

It is indeed strange, given that the ARMY from Redcliffe reaches Denerim in ..2 days, was it?
A messanger on a horse would be there FAR sooner.

But I find it strange that the intro cutscene to the Broken Circle gives the impression that the templars just closed the large door. It could be that they sent word as soon as it started and were fighting up to this point.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Buffy-Summers wrote...

Yet we do not condemn the entire population in camps, we try to stop the ones that snap and let those that follow the law have freedom. The only difference is scale.

No matter how you word it, the treatment of mages in the DA universe is outrageous

Scale, temptation, destructive potential. Big differences.

Treatment of mages in DA is OK.

[LobselVith8]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

So that must explain why the Chantry never bothered to imprison mages until they protested their lack of rights under the Chantry?

You dont' know the status of the mages before or how they were exactly handeled. So don't talk out of your ass.
Not to mention that even IF they were free for the first 200 years, that doesnt' mean that abominations weren't a problem and mages weren't dangerous. It may very well mean that the Chantry was trying other solutions before, but they didn't end up working as well as the Circles.

Again, you cannot prove me wrong on this...

Try to keep your composure, Lotion. There's no reason we can't discuss this with civility.

As for your claim that it can't be disproven, the History of the Circle codex does that. Since we already know mages were segregated and imprisoned as a result of the protest they held from the Chantry scholar written codex, I'm being honest by pointing it out and not making it up as you crudely suggested. You have no proof to contest the information provided by the codex, Lotion.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

There are also cases of governments imprisoning people because they were different and thought to be dangerous, but I don't see many condoning those actions these days.

Different or dangerous? Because the difference if huge.

WWII and Japanese-Americans, for instance.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 17 février 2011 - 03:39 .

[LobselVith8]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Haussier wrote...
I would say a round trip even should the Denerim chantry immediatly reply would take almost two weeks.
To be truthful however any argument about "time" in a game like this can only be based upon vague information and assumptions.

It is indeed strange, given that the ARMY from Redcliffe reaches Denerim in ..2 days, was it?
A messanger on a horse would be there FAR sooner.

But I find it strange that the intro cutscene to the Broken Circle gives the impression that the templars just closed the large door. It could be that they sent word as soon as it started and were fighting up to this point.

And Greagoir's comment about the civil war disproves your earlier assertion that the reinforcements would have arrived on time. Again, we have no way of knowing that anyone but the Warden would be capable of stopping Uldred and the abominations.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Buffy-Summers wrote...

Yet we do not condemn the entire population in camps, we try to stop the ones that snap and let those that follow the law have freedom. The only difference is scale.

No matter how you word it, the treatment of mages in the DA universe is outrageous

Scale, temptation, destructive potential. Big differences.

Treatment of mages in DA is OK.

The treatment of mages is repugnant and some of their actions can be viewed as torture (the Harrowing) and slavery (the tranquil).

[kevin cousland]

mages are weak and cowardly, having to hide behind other wariors, flinging spells from distance. warriors are best with their powerfull durability huge armour shiny swords and awesome kills

[Erani]

kevin cousland wrote...

mages are weak and cowardly, having to hide behind other wariors, flinging spells from distance. warriors are best with their powerfull durability huge armour shiny swords and awesome kills

Mage--->cone of cold, stone fist=dead warrior.

[kevin cousland]

warrior---- big sword, slashy slash slash,(not the toilet kind)=dismembered mage(or big brown floaters)

[Haussier]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

It is indeed strange, given that the ARMY from Redcliffe reaches Denerim in ..2 days, was it?
A messanger on a horse would be there FAR sooner.

But I find it strange that the intro cutscene to the Broken Circle gives the impression that the templars just closed the large door. It could be that they sent word as soon as it started and were fighting up to this point.

I found that strange as well considering the knight commander tells you that they ran at the first sight of abominations heheh. I guess it's just one of those inconsistancies that you sometimes find in games.

Horses? I hadn't considered that heheh, considering that they never show a horse in game meh. I would also take into account that Greagoir was expecting reinforcements from denerim, who very well might not have had access to horses.

[Bad King]

kevin cousland wrote...

warrior---- big sword, slashy slash slash,(not the toilet kind)=dismembered mage(or big brown floaters)

The mage could just mind control the warrior. Then the warrior = mage's slave.

[Erani]

Bad King wrote...

kevin cousland wrote...

warrior---- big sword, slashy slash slash,(not the toilet kind)=dismembered mage(or big brown floaters)

The mage could just mind control the warrior. Then the warrior = mage's slave.

LOL, This. Or cone of cold/paralyze/crushing prison=no big sword slashy slash b/c warior can't move.

[My Avatar is a Lizard]

Michael Hamilton wrote...

I'm not proposing a solution.

I believe that's up to the player as they approach each decision in the game.

Solution: Sterlilize all mages, (assuming magistry is genetic)

in 5 generations they will be no more without having to kill anyone simply because they were born with great power

[My Avatar is a Lizard]

Erani wrote...

kevin cousland wrote...

mages are weak and cowardly, having to hide behind other wariors, flinging spells from distance. warriors are best with their powerfull durability huge armour shiny swords and awesome kills

Mage--->cone of cold, stone fist=dead warrior.

rogue--->stealth----->backstab mage=Teabag mage.

[Eclipse_9990]

My Avatar is a Lizard wrote...

Erani wrote...

kevin cousland wrote...

mages are weak and cowardly, having to hide behind other wariors, flinging spells from distance. warriors are best with their powerfull durability huge armour shiny swords and awesome kills

Mage--->cone of cold, stone fist=dead warrior.

rogue--->stealth----->backstab mage=Teabag mage.

Mage---> Glyph or Repulsion ---> Rogue falls right on his ass. 

Also I never got the Teabag thing some people do. Its weird since Teabagging is pretty much one of the gayest things ever. Yet you see brotards do it all the time in fps's and stuff. I never got how that was amusing. 

Modifié par Eclipse_9990, 17 février 2011 - 04:39 .

[Taleroth]

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

Also I never got the Teabag thing some people do. Its weird since Teabagging is pretty much one of the gayest things ever, yet you see brotards do it all the time in fps's and stuff. I never got how that was amusing. 

Sexual assault is meant to be demeaning, not funny.  It serves a similar purpose in this case.  Why people treat it so casually as to present it as part of their online video game behavior, I'll never understand either.

That's a tangent.  So I'll say that Mages are pretty cool.  Never need to ask for ice with their drinks.

Modifié par Taleroth, 17 février 2011 - 04:41 .