1283 réponses à ce sujet

[Xewaka]

IanPolaris wrote...

megaz635 wrote...
Mages are the same as everyone else.
But they can shoot lightning from their hands.

And IRL any fool can shoot shoot lethal projectiles from their hands, but we don't lock away the mentally ill (at least not any more) because of this.  What's the difference?
-Polaris

The mentally ill do not come with a gun grafted to their nervous system.

[AlexXIV]

IanPolaris wrote...

megaz635 wrote...

Mages are the same as everyone else.

But they can shoot lightning from their hands.

And IRL any fool can shoot shoot lethal projectiles from their hands, but we don't lock away the mentally ill (at least not any more) because of this.  What's the difference?

-Polaris

To be fair, a system that lets every idiot carry a gun isn't a good example for why a system that doesn't does not have merit.

[McHoger]

IanPolaris wrote...

And IRL any fool can shoot shoot lethal projectiles from their hands, but we don't lock away the mentally ill (at least not any more) because of this.  What's the difference?

-Polaris

There isn't an active 3rd party attempting to change the mentally ill into weapons 24/7.

Modifié par McHoger, 03 février 2011 - 05:42 .

[IanPolaris]

October Sixth wrote...

HopHazzard wrote...

Not fireballs, but certainly grenades and automatic weapons if he really wanted to. I do live in the USA, after all. And it's quite possible for a person with a serious psychiatric problem to go completely unnoticed until there's a violent outburst. I don't how well you know your neighbors, but I don't even know the names of most of mine let alone the state of their mental health. And insanity does have a genetic component. Fortunately, I live in a country where that can't be held against you (now if only we could do something about how easy it is to obtain military grade ordnance).

Yes, but we do license people to carry firearms, don't we?

If we know a person is susceptible to violent outbursts we won't license him.

I would be all for the liscensing and bonding of mages.  There is a world of difference between educating and bonding (read liscensing) mages and locking them away just because they 'might' do harm later.  We also have police WITH firearms IRL to deal with offenders just as it would be sensible for there to be a magically based order of knighthood (that would include mages and templar-like warriors) to deal specifically with magical crime and regulation of magic.

That solution makes too much sense, however, I guess.

-Polaris

[errant_knight]

IanPolaris wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

I can even do this one matter.  A mentally ill person could with just a little bit of knowledge (far less than what most mages have by comparison) go to the local hardware and gardening store and get some Diesel Fuel and some Ammonium Nitrate Fertilizer.  The death toll from that would exceed any from your fantasy mage, I promise you.

-Polaris

Just how do you know this? There was a specific one almost killing an entire village IIRC, and that was a child.

Oklahoma City.  Galvason near the turn of the 20th century.  One person with an ammonium nitrate bomb can do more casualties than is even possible in a midaeval village....and the Redcliff incident happened because of the Chantry and the Circle system not in spite of it.

-Polaris

Edit PS:  Any fool with a little insanity, a quick read of the anarchists cookbook, and no regard for human life can easily make an amomium-nitrate bomb that will take out potentially several city blocks....in a modern city with modern construction.

How is it the Chantry's fault that Isolde didn't send Connor for training? If she had, Redcliffe would have been in no danger. And what the heck do bombs have to do with it? The ability to kill a lot of people one way doesn't negate the possibility of killing people another, or mean that you shou;d just throw your hands in the air and wait to die.

[Kenjimaster666]

I generally dislike mages as they tend to be stuck-up arrogant beshes.

Not to say they all are, but that's just how typical mages are.



That said, my mage character is one of my favourites. =D

[October Sixth]

IanPolaris wrote...

October Sixth wrote...

HopHazzard wrote...

Not fireballs, but certainly grenades and automatic weapons if he really wanted to. I do live in the USA, after all. And it's quite possible for a person with a serious psychiatric problem to go completely unnoticed until there's a violent outburst. I don't how well you know your neighbors, but I don't even know the names of most of mine let alone the state of their mental health. And insanity does have a genetic component. Fortunately, I live in a country where that can't be held against you (now if only we could do something about how easy it is to obtain military grade ordnance).

Yes, but we do license people to carry firearms, don't we?

If we know a person is susceptible to violent outbursts we won't license him.

I would be all for the liscensing and bonding of mages.  There is a world of difference between educating and bonding (read liscensing) mages and locking them away just because they 'might' do harm later.  We also have police WITH firearms IRL to deal with offenders just as it would be sensible for there to be a magically based order of knighthood (that would include mages and templar-like warriors) to deal specifically with magical crime and regulation of magic.

That solution makes too much sense, however, I guess.

-Polaris

No it doesn't. And it's not far off from what the Chantry currently does. Unless of course you're suggesting that the initial training be done all across Ferelden instead of at a single institution?

[pumpkinman13]

well, i'll be giving the mage my first playthrough test run, with the staff of parlathan hopefully. The glaive polearm look is just too badass to miss out on, hopefully the close combat ability will add something a little fresh to the mage. failing that i'll go rogue.

[IanPolaris]

McHoger wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

And IRL any fool can shoot shoot lethal projectiles from their hands, but we don't lock away the mentally ill (at least not any more) because of this.  What's the difference?

-Polaris

There isn't an active 3rd party attempting to change the mentally ill into weapons 24/7.

Irrevelent.  For many kinds of mentally ill, you can have sudden, unpredictable, and even violent shifts of personality and mood.  This was why socieites USED to lock away the mentally ill.  From a social standpoint, it doesn't matter if demons take over mages or if mages go batty.  The result is the same and thus the justification for locking away mages is the same.

However, if it turns out (and I think this is the case based on what we know) that it's actually HARD for a demon to possess a mage (the mage has to want to let it in) and under normal circumstances (well adjusted, veil not torn, etc) vanishingly rare, then the circle tower justification at least on a moral level goes up in a poof of smoke.

-Polaris

[Alodar]

IanPolaris wrote...

Oklahoma City.  Galvason near the turn of the 20th century.  One person with an ammonium nitrate bomb can do more casualties than is even possible in a midaeval village....and the Redcliff incident happened because of the Chantry and the Circle system not in spite of it.
.

The RedCliffe incident, happened entirely because the Chantry rules were flaunted.

Had Loghain turned the blood-mage over to the chantry there would have been no poisoner.
Had Isabella turned her son over to the chantry there would have been no demon infestation.

And let's face all of you are talking about people using weapons.  The big difference here is mages are weapons. They are nucluear bombs sitting in your schools, offices and play grounds. How comfortable is everyone with that?


Alodar

[Xewaka]

IanPolaris wrote...
I would be all for the liscensing and bonding of mages.  There is a world of difference between educating and bonding (read liscensing) mages and locking them away just because they 'might' do harm later.  We also have police WITH firearms IRL to deal with offenders just as it would be sensible for there to be a magically based order of knighthood (that would include mages and templar-like warriors) to deal specifically with magical crime and regulation of magic.
That solution makes too much sense, however, I guess.
-Polaris

I thought that was already in place. I mean, Wynne pretty much came to his bosses and said "Yo, I'm hitching a ride with the Warden. See ya." And left with no feathers ruffled. Supplementary material indicate that Circle Mages can (and will) be assigned to off-tower duties without supervision, and are granted leaves to travel outside the circle for whatever reason.

[October Sixth]

Alodar wrote...

And let's face all of you are talking about people using weapons.  The big difference here is mages are weapons. They are nucluear bombs sitting in your schools, offices and play grounds. How comfortable is everyone with that?

Alodar

Well, some of these so-called children have ten times the destructive force of any handgun. No, I don't see a difference. All I see are weapons in our schools.
- Senator Robert Kelly

Modifié par October Sixth, 03 février 2011 - 05:48 .

[IanPolaris]

October Sixth wrote...
No it doesn't. And it's not far off from what the Chantry currently does. Unless of course you're suggesting that the initial training be done all across Ferelden instead of at a single institution?

Why not?  I don't think you've ever seriously considered it.  In the first place I don't see why training couldn't be done all over Thedas, but even if it were centralized like a DA version of Hogwort's, it would be a far cry from what we have now.  Why?  At a bording school mages would still have rights and the ability to leave.  That would make the dynamic completely different....not that I am fond of bording schools.

-Polaris

[AlexXIV]

Alodar wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Oklahoma City.  Galvason near the turn of the 20th century.  One person with an ammonium nitrate bomb can do more casualties than is even possible in a midaeval village....and the Redcliff incident happened because of the Chantry and the Circle system not in spite of it.
.

The RedCliffe incident, happened entirely because the Chantry rules were flaunted.

Had Loghain turned the blood-mage over to the chantry there would have been no poisoner.
Had Isabella turned her son over to the chantry there would have been no demon infestation.

And let's face all of you are talking about people using weapons.  The big difference here is mages are weapons. They are nucluear bombs sitting in your schools, offices and play grounds. How comfortable is everyone with that?


Alodar

Yet think about this. Jowan gets punished. Loghain and Isolde go free. They were breaking the rules just like Jowan and were equally responsible yet they go free where the mage gets killed or worse. Just sayin'.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 03 février 2011 - 05:50 .

[October Sixth]

IanPolaris wrote...

October Sixth wrote...
No it doesn't. And it's not far off from what the Chantry currently does. Unless of course you're suggesting that the initial training be done all across Ferelden instead of at a single institution?

Why not?  I don't think you've ever seriously considered it.  In the first place I don't see why training couldn't be done all over Thedas, but even if it were centralized like a DA version of Hogwort's, it would be a far cry from what we have now.  Why?  At a bording school mages would still have rights and the ability to leave.  That would make the dynamic completely different....not that I am fond of bording schools.

-Polaris

It's simply a matter of resources. Why spread out the training and leave towns susceptible to Connor incidents when they can contain them until they've learned to control their powers properly?

[megaz635]

IanPolaris wrote...

megaz635 wrote...

Mages are the same as everyone else.

But they can shoot lightning from their hands.

And IRL any fool can shoot shoot lethal projectiles from their hands, but we don't lock away the mentally ill (at least not any more) because of this.  What's the difference?

-Polaris

So people can shoot elemental projectiles from their hands and not screw up?

Besides IRL you need to be trained to use a gun. Not any idiot can use it.

[HopHazzard]

October Sixth wrote...

HopHazzard wrote...

Not fireballs, but certainly grenades and automatic weapons if he really wanted to. I do live in the USA, after all. And it's quite possible for a person with a serious psychiatric problem to go completely unnoticed until there's a violent outburst. I don't how well you know your neighbors, but I don't even know the names of most of mine let alone the state of their mental health. And insanity does have a genetic component. Fortunately, I live in a country where that can't be held against you (now if only we could do something about how easy it is to obtain military grade ordnance).

Yes, but we do license people to carry firearms, don't we?

If we know a person is susceptible to violent outbursts we won't license him.

And if we don't know a person is susceptible to violent outbursts? At any rate I've never been opposed to mandatory education and legal monitoring of mages. I'm just opposed to preemptively imprisoning people for crimes they have the capacity, but not necessarily the desire to commit.

[IanPolaris]

Xewaka wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
I would be all for the liscensing and bonding of mages.  There is a world of difference between educating and bonding (read liscensing) mages and locking them away just because they 'might' do harm later.  We also have police WITH firearms IRL to deal with offenders just as it would be sensible for there to be a magically based order of knighthood (that would include mages and templar-like warriors) to deal specifically with magical crime and regulation of magic.
That solution makes too much sense, however, I guess.
-Polaris

I thought that was already in place. I mean, Wynne pretty much came to his bosses and said "Yo, I'm hitching a ride with the Warden. See ya." And left with no feathers ruffled. Supplementary material indicate that Circle Mages can (and will) be assigned to off-tower duties without supervision, and are granted leaves to travel outside the circle for whatever reason.

Bolluxs.  What Wynne and other mages got has a fancy name.  It's called PAROLE.  It's a priveledge granted by ther chantry that can be withdrawn at any time for any or no reason....and it's return to prison (the circle tower) or be braned an apostate (or even Malificar if the Templars are having a bad hair day) and be hunted down and killed.  Far from the same thing.

-Polaris

[Elsariel]

Alodar wrote...


The RedCliffe incident, happened entirely because the Chantry rules were flaunted.

Had Loghain turned the blood-mage over to the chantry there would have been no poisoner.
Had Isabella turned her son over to the chantry there would have been no demon infestation.

 

Playing devil's advocate again....

The Redcliffe incident also happened because Isolde was scared her son would be taken away from her and denied his titles because he was a mage.  Were mages allowed to be free people, Isolde wouldn't have needed to summon for Jowan to teach Connor in secret which spawned the whole incident to begin with.

If mages were allowed to live equally amongst everyone else, she could have legally hired many mage tutors to help her son that were more qualified than Jowan to do the job.

Modifié par Elsariel, 03 février 2011 - 05:54 .

[megaz635]

IanPolaris wrote...

McHoger wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

And IRL any fool can shoot shoot lethal projectiles from their hands, but we don't lock away the mentally ill (at least not any more) because of this.  What's the difference?

-Polaris

There isn't an active 3rd party attempting to change the mentally ill into weapons 24/7.

Irrevelent.  For many kinds of mentally ill, you can have sudden, unpredictable, and even violent shifts of personality and mood.  This was why socieites USED to lock away the mentally ill.  From a social standpoint, it doesn't matter if demons take over mages or if mages go batty.  The result is the same and thus the justification for locking away mages is the same.

However, if it turns out (and I think this is the case based on what we know) that it's actually HARD for a demon to possess a mage (the mage has to want to let it in) and under normal circumstances (well adjusted, veil not torn, etc) vanishingly rare, then the circle tower justification at least on a moral level goes up in a poof of smoke.

-Polaris

The mages are not mentally ill and you should not think of them as the mentally ill.

If they turned into a blood mage for evil would it be no diffrent to turn into a tyrant ruler?

[IanPolaris]

megaz635 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

megaz635 wrote...

Mages are the same as everyone else.

But they can shoot lightning from their hands.

And IRL any fool can shoot shoot lethal projectiles from their hands, but we don't lock away the mentally ill (at least not any more) because of this.  What's the difference?

-Polaris

So people can shoot elemental projectiles from their hands and not screw up?

Besides IRL you need to be trained to use a gun. Not any idiot can use it.

Wrong.  Any fool can use a gun given an hour of self training.  Even in basic it takes all of a single session (half a day) for a raw recruit (with no prior firearms experience) to learn to aim, handle, strip, and immediate-action a modern assault rifle, and then pass a basic firearms competancy test at the end of the day.  Modern guns are specifically designed so that any idiot can use them including childern (and in places such as Africa all too many children do).

-Polaris

[AlexXIV]

IanPolaris wrote...

Xewaka wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
I would be all for the liscensing and bonding of mages.  There is a world of difference between educating and bonding (read liscensing) mages and locking them away just because they 'might' do harm later.  We also have police WITH firearms IRL to deal with offenders just as it would be sensible for there to be a magically based order of knighthood (that would include mages and templar-like warriors) to deal specifically with magical crime and regulation of magic.
That solution makes too much sense, however, I guess.
-Polaris

I thought that was already in place. I mean, Wynne pretty much came to his bosses and said "Yo, I'm hitching a ride with the Warden. See ya." And left with no feathers ruffled. Supplementary material indicate that Circle Mages can (and will) be assigned to off-tower duties without supervision, and are granted leaves to travel outside the circle for whatever reason.

Bolluxs.  What Wynne and other mages got has a fancy name.  It's called PAROLE.  It's a priveledge granted by ther chantry that can be withdrawn at any time for any or no reason....and it's return to prison (the circle tower) or be braned an apostate (or even Malificar if the Templars are having a bad hair day) and be hunted down and killed.  Far from the same thing.

-Polaris

Also, Wynne was gven leave to go with the Grey Warden to stop the Blight. That was just like Duncan requiring assistance for Ostagar or recruiting Grey Wardens, and it was after the Grey Warden and Wynne saved the Circle. I don't think it is usual for the Circle to let their mages wander with random strangers.

[Alodar]

October Sixth wrote...

Alodar wrote...

And let's face all of you are talking about people using weapons.  The big difference here is mages are weapons. They are nucluear bombs sitting in your schools, offices and play grounds. How comfortable is everyone with that?

Alodar

Well, some of these so-called children have ten times the destructive force of any handgun. No, I don't see a difference. All I see are weapons in our schools.
- Senator Robert Kelly

Quoting Xmen, but it proves the point that I'm trying to make.
Modern society would react just as negatively to a minority of modern mages as do those in DAO. Mages would be controlled/persecuted/put to death.


Alodar

[HopHazzard]

SnakeStrike8 wrote...

HopHazzard wrote...

Not fireballs, but certainly grenades and automatic weapons if he really wanted to. I do live in the USA, after all. And it's quite possible for a person with a serious psychiatric problem to go completely unnoticed until there's a violent outburst. I don't how well you know your neighbors, but I don't even know the names of most of mine let alone the state of their mental health. And insanity does have a genetic component. Fortunately, I live in a country where that can't be held against you (now if only we could do something about how easy it is to obtain military grade ordnance).

Good thing there were no grenades in medeival Ferelden, then- or if there were, they were much harder to get ahold of than they are today.

We were discussing the hypothetical situation of DA-style mages existing in the real world.

[October Sixth]

HopHazzard wrote...

October Sixth wrote...

HopHazzard wrote...

Not fireballs, but certainly grenades and automatic weapons if he really wanted to. I do live in the USA, after all. And it's quite possible for a person with a serious psychiatric problem to go completely unnoticed until there's a violent outburst. I don't how well you know your neighbors, but I don't even know the names of most of mine let alone the state of their mental health. And insanity does have a genetic component. Fortunately, I live in a country where that can't be held against you (now if only we could do something about how easy it is to obtain military grade ordnance).

Yes, but we do license people to carry firearms, don't we?

If we know a person is susceptible to violent outbursts we won't license him.

And if we don't know a person is susceptible to violent outbursts? At any rate I've never been opposed to mandatory education and legal monitoring of mages. I'm just opposed to preemptively imprisoning people for crimes they have the capacity, but not necessarily the desire to commit.

If the Circle Tower is a prison then it's a pretty gilded cage. Some people have a strong aversion to containment in and of itself, and that's fine, but it's a fairly accommodating prison even by modern standards.