1283 réponses à ce sujet

[IanPolaris]

megaz635 wrote...

The mages are not mentally ill and you should not think of them as the mentally ill.

If they turned into a blood mage for evil would it be no diffrent to turn into a tyrant ruler?

There have been tyrants in history that probably were mentally ill (a certain famous 20th century German one comes to mind of course).

However, I think the comparison is apt.  In Western societies we USED to lock away mentally ill people in asslyums and forgot about them (which led to the deservedly bad reputation of 'funny farms') BECAUSE of almost exactly the same reasoning that DG is pushing regarding mages.  They could "go bonkers" at any time and kill lots of people.

Funny thing though.  Modern Clinical Applied Psychiatry found that this didn't actually make society safer and created more problems than it solved...and in that I see another parallel with mages in Dragon Age.

-Polaris

[McHoger]

HopHazzard wrote...

We were discussing the hypothetical situation of DA-style mages existing in the real world.

I  shudder to think of the number of abominations that are born from angry pubescent teenagers.

[EmperorSahlertz]

IanPolaris wrote...

McHoger wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

And IRL any fool can shoot shoot lethal projectiles from their hands, but we don't lock away the mentally ill (at least not any more) because of this.  What's the difference?

-Polaris

There isn't an active 3rd party attempting to change the mentally ill into weapons 24/7.

Irrevelent.  For many kinds of mentally ill, you can have sudden, unpredictable, and even violent shifts of personality and mood.  This was why socieites USED to lock away the mentally ill.  From a social standpoint, it doesn't matter if demons take over mages or if mages go batty.  The result is the same and thus the justification for locking away mages is the same.

However, if it turns out (and I think this is the case based on what we know) that it's actually HARD for a demon to possess a mage (the mage has to want to let it in) and under normal circumstances (well adjusted, veil not torn, etc) vanishingly rare, then the circle tower justification at least on a moral level goes up in a poof of smoke.

-Polaris

A mage does not have to let himself become possessed. A demon can force itself into the mage. THat is apparently the most common kind of possession (the forced one). Why a demon even bothers with trying to cheat its way in is never really elaborated on, but I figure it is because it is more "fun" and/or it makes for a more "flawless" abomination.

[October Sixth]

McHoger wrote...

HopHazzard wrote...

We were discussing the hypothetical situation of DA-style mages existing in the real world.

I  shudder to think of the number of abominations that are born from angry pubescent teenagers.

...or just horny pubescent teenagers. Who wouldn't enter the Desire Demon Matrix in exchange for their soul?

[IanPolaris]

AlexXIV wrote...

Also, Wynne was gven leave to go with the Grey Warden to stop the Blight. That was just like Duncan requiring assistance for Ostagar or recruiting Grey Wardens, and it was after the Grey Warden and Wynne saved the Circle. I don't think it is usual for the Circle to let their mages wander with random strangers.

It isn't.  Mages are permitted to leave only with the explicit consent of the Knight Commander (although most loan that authority to the FIrst Enchanter) and only for specific reasons/jobs.  Only the Tranquil Formorians are permitted to live extended lives outside the circle as shop-keepers and they are tranquil and thus no threat to anyone.  [Willhelm of Honnleth was an explicit exception in the story because he was a War Hero second only to perhaps your Mage-Warden and thus was given an especially lenient parole likely due to the direct influence of Arl Eamon and King Maric]

-Polaris

[EmperorSahlertz]

IanPolaris wrote...

megaz635 wrote...

The mages are not mentally ill and you should not think of them as the mentally ill.

If they turned into a blood mage for evil would it be no diffrent to turn into a tyrant ruler?

There have been tyrants in history that probably were mentally ill (a certain famous 20th century German one comes to mind of course).

However, I think the comparison is apt.  In Western societies we USED to lock away mentally ill people in asslyums and forgot about them (which led to the deservedly bad reputation of 'funny farms') BECAUSE of almost exactly the same reasoning that DG is pushing regarding mages.  They could "go bonkers" at any time and kill lots of people.

Funny thing though.  Modern Clinical Applied Psychiatry found that this didn't actually make society safer and created more problems than it solved...and in that I see another parallel with mages in Dragon Age.

-Polaris

Except, back then you didn't lock them up because they 'could', but because they already 'had'. Big difference. THe insane inside the funny farms had already shown to be dangerous. Thus they were locked up.

[IanPolaris]

McHoger wrote...

HopHazzard wrote...

We were discussing the hypothetical situation of DA-style mages existing in the real world.

I  shudder to think of the number of abominations that are born from angry pubescent teenagers.

Virginia Tech just a year ago or so.  There are many other examples of kids "losing it" with modern weaponry.  Colombine is another example.

-Polaris

[HopHazzard]

October Sixth wrote...

HopHazzard wrote...

October Sixth wrote...

HopHazzard wrote...

Not fireballs, but certainly grenades and automatic weapons if he really wanted to. I do live in the USA, after all. And it's quite possible for a person with a serious psychiatric problem to go completely unnoticed until there's a violent outburst. I don't how well you know your neighbors, but I don't even know the names of most of mine let alone the state of their mental health. And insanity does have a genetic component. Fortunately, I live in a country where that can't be held against you (now if only we could do something about how easy it is to obtain military grade ordnance).

Yes, but we do license people to carry firearms, don't we?

If we know a person is susceptible to violent outbursts we won't license him.

And if we don't know a person is susceptible to violent outbursts? At any rate I've never been opposed to mandatory education and legal monitoring of mages. I'm just opposed to preemptively imprisoning people for crimes they have the capacity, but not necessarily the desire to commit.

If the Circle Tower is a prison then it's a pretty gilded cage. Some people have a strong aversion to containment in and of itself, and that's fine, but it's a fairly accommodating prison even by modern standards.

The fact that the tower is a comfortable place to be doesn't make it any less of a prison. It may be more like being under house arrest than being in jail, but it's still oppressive.

[Harid]

I don't. Outside of the mages I play myself, the mages in game, outside of Anerein, Wynne, and like the First Enchanter have largely been sociopaths and douchebags.



Boggles my mind how many people on these forums believe mages deserve sovereignty when they screw up all the time, and show little regard for their fellow man, and don't actively try to stop the deviant mages in their communities.



They probably all play mages.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Except, back then you didn't lock them up because they 'could', but because they already 'had'. Big difference. THe insane inside the funny farms had already shown to be dangerous. Thus they were locked up.

Nope.  That's the way it works now.  Mentally ill only get permanent instutionalization after they've done something and after it's been determined there is no other way.  Modern mental health practitioners will bend over backwards to try to reintegrate even severe cases of mental illness back into society in a controlled manner whenever possible.

That wasn't always the case.  It used to be as late as thirty years ago that people could be isntitutionalized without any trial or any say whatsoever if you 'flunked' an MMPI or otherwise were determined to be mentally ill, and once institutionalized it was vitually impossible to be deinstitutionalized.

So in short, you're wrong.

-Polaris

[tmp7704]

October Sixth wrote...

McHoger wrote...

I  shudder to think of the number of abominations that are born from angry pubescent teenagers.

...or just horny pubescent teenagers. Who wouldn't enter the Desire Demon Matrix in exchange for their soul?

For that matter picture a horny teenager who discovers being capable of making anyone think what they want them to think.

[LobselVith8]

David Gaider wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
But while we see that was done with the Andrastian societies, don't we see and read that there are alternatives to what the templars and Chantry are doing to mages - the nation of Rivain, the Dalish clans, the Chasind.

They exist without controlling mages. Meaning that if a mage turns into an abomination and causes destruction, or otherwise causes problems, they simply suffer and deal with it. I don't think it's a stretch to suggest that not everyone is going to consider that a viable alternative.

Isn't that an argument for having law enforcement to deal with people (mages and non-mages alike) who break the law? I don't think anyone is arguing that mages should be free and allowed to hurt people if they please or break the law - people are arguing against what the Chantry is currently doing by throwing people into prisons, and many have provided alternative solutions to what the Chantry is doing.

David Gaider wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Dales and Arlathan were also two nations that had mages. Possibly even the town of Haven, given Kolgrim's attack of the Chantry's views on "forbidden magic" and Father Eirik presiding over the Haven Chantry and he was a mage. Doesn't this illustrate that we can question the validity of what the Chantry is doing with their templars, and how effective it is?

Based on what? You know nothing about how the Dales and ancient Arlathan dealt with magic.

I based my comment on what we're informed about in DA:O, nothing more. In the Magi Origin, it's referenced that the ancient elves of Arlathan were great wielders of magic by the elven mage we speak to. Among the Dalish, we see mages leading the clans (Dalish Warden Origin and Zathrian's clan), and we're told they descend from the nobility of the Dales. We also learn from the Arcane Warrior phylactery that there was a sec of mage warriors in Thedas some centuries ago.

David Gaider wrote...

And I'm not sure that citing a village full of religious zealots that drank the blood of dragons and killed all strangers that came upon them is a particularly good example of "why mages aren't bad".

Religious zealots who kill people who disagree with their religious beliefs is indeed bad.

Also, I never made the claim that the people of Haven weren't bad, but they do have mages living alongside non-mages, so I don't see why my example is unfair. There's no reference that Kolgrim's ancestor started to see the High Dragon as Andraste because of magic, after all. There's no indication that magic is the reason that they're killing strangers or worshipping a dragon as their reincarnated prophet, after all.

David Gaider wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

But if the Dalish POV of the attack on the Dales is accurate (with the codex referencing templars heading into the Dales when they kicked out the missionaries) the same can be said of nations run by non-mages, where people with power can do bad things. Also, the Chantry made use of its Circle of Magi to battle the Qunari armies during the New Exalted Marches; Genitivi's codex made it clear that they were an edge against the advanted technology that the Qunari had. As much as magic can be misused (like with your example of the Tevinter Imperium) it's also played a role in protecting people as well.

If you're suggesting that the argument against magic isn't clear-cut, as magic has its uses and there's clearly no "better" solution... then you'd be correct. I'm not sure arguing that "non-mage societies can also be bad" is really a way to convince people who are frightened of mages for very good reasons that they shouldn't be.

"Don't be scared of that monster! That man over there with the sword could also kill you! If he wanted to!"
"Ahhh! Someone spare us, for the love of Andraste!"
squish

There's clearly no better solution in DA:O, because we're relegated to the Andrastian society of Thedas. We read about Rivain, we hear about the Chasind, and we have brief experience with the Dalish. However, I see no reason why we can't debate the merits of the Chantry system that we've encountered in DA:O and DA:A. Am I arguing that the Chantry is evil? No. Am I arguing that the templars are evil? No. I see no problem arguing against the Chantry's actions concerning mages from what we do know, and I see no reason why these concerns shouldn't be addressed rather than brushed off as collateral damage in the name of the greater good.

There seems to be no evidence to support the claim that Aenirin was a maleficar during Wynne's Regret and neither Wynne, Aenirin, or the Dalish seem to even acknowledge any "forbidden magic" being practiced by him (as all he does is heal the party); templars killed the Magnificent D'Sims because they thought he was a mage who healed people (Awakening reference); and we're not told why templars put a bounty on Morrigan in Witch Hunt for the Orlesian Warden or why they think she is a blood mage who should be killed. Is there evidence against Morrigan, or are there suspicions alone enough to warrant her death? Some of us think that this is a bit of a problem and argue that there should be change.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 03 février 2011 - 06:10 .

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

A mage does not have to let himself become possessed. A demon can force itself into the mage. THat is apparently the most common kind of possession (the forced one). Why a demon even bothers with trying to cheat its way in is never really elaborated on, but I figure it is because it is more "fun" and/or it makes for a more "flawless" abomination.

Evidence for this would be nice.  The only cases of forced possession we see (and anyone and anything can be possessed btw), are when:

1.  The Veil is torn (and the rules change in such locations and living in such a place is as responsible as living in a toxic waste dump)_.

2.  The mage is forcing a contest of wills via the fade (usually when summoning a demon).

Both are voluntary decisions on the part of the mage.  The overwhelming game lore I've seen suggests that it's hard for a demon to possess anyone, even a mage and it generally can not be done by force.

-Polaris

[tmp7704]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I based my comment on what we're informed about in DA:O, nothing more. In the Magi Origin, it's referenced that the ancient elves of Arlathan were great wielders of magic by the elven mage we speak to.

It's like believing modern Italian to tell you accurate tale about the Roman Empire, *if* the Empire got buried underground thousand+ years ago and all knowledge regarding it was lost.

[AlexXIV]

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

A mage does not have to let himself become possessed. A demon can force itself into the mage. THat is apparently the most common kind of possession (the forced one). Why a demon even bothers with trying to cheat its way in is never really elaborated on, but I figure it is because it is more "fun" and/or it makes for a more "flawless" abomination.

Evidence for this would be nice.  The only cases of forced possession we see (and anyone and anything can be possessed btw), are when:

1.  The Veil is torn (and the rules change in such locations and living in such a place is as responsible as living in a toxic waste dump)_.

2.  The mage is forcing a contest of wills via the fade (usually when summoning a demon).

Both are voluntary decisions on the part of the mage.  The overwhelming game lore I've seen suggests that it's hard for a demon to possess anyone, even a mage and it generally can not be done by force.

-Polaris

I think demons can force themselves in dead bodies, or at least if they force themselves into a mage the mage's essence leaves the body (Warden Commander Sophia in Warden's Keep). If the mage agrees in a sort of pact it is more like a symbiosis, thus makes the mage-abomination stronger. The mage still loses his or her free will so I don't see that happening other than under torture or in extreme cases of stupidity.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 03 février 2011 - 06:15 .

[IanPolaris]

Alodar wrote...
Quoting Xmen, but it proves the point that I'm trying to make.
Modern society would react just as negatively to a minority of modern mages as do those in DAO. Mages would be controlled/persecuted/put to death.


Alodar

Actually it proves the opposite.  Mutants in the X-Men universe can not be imprisoned for being what they are and the X-Men SCOTUS did determine that Mutants were citizens and did have the same legal rights as non-humans...and that bills to institutionalize/criminalize mutants including the registration acts have failed in the senate time and time again.  Sure there are those that behave as you suggest, but there are many others that do not.

However, just as in the X-Men universe, Magneto is a chilling alternative to Professor X.  In the DA universe, the chantry and her templars refuse to consider the moderate path of regulating magic and thus have prevented a Professor X from being a moderate voice for moderate change when dealing with magic.

That leaves the alternative:  Magneto and a no-quarters war between Mages and Mundanes that everyone loses.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

AlexXIV wrote...

I think demons can force themselves in dead bodies, or at least if they force themselves into a mage the mage's essence leaves the body (Warden Commander Sophia in Warden's Keep). If the mage agrees in a sort of pact it is more like a symbiosis, thus makes the mage-abomination stronger. The mage still loses his or her free will so I don't see that happening other than under torture or in extreme cases of stupidity.

Demons can't even do that much unless the veil is torn as it was in Warden's keep and other places were you see the walking dead.  Even Jowan (who does seem to know his magical lore) says that it's the tearing of the veil that made the walking dead possible.  The Veil is also torn as I said in Soldier's Peak, Circle Tower, Redcliff castle, Ostagar, and the Brecilian Forest.

-Polaris

[AlexXIV]

IanPolaris wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

I think demons can force themselves in dead bodies, or at least if they force themselves into a mage the mage's essence leaves the body (Warden Commander Sophia in Warden's Keep). If the mage agrees in a sort of pact it is more like a symbiosis, thus makes the mage-abomination stronger. The mage still loses his or her free will so I don't see that happening other than under torture or in extreme cases of stupidity.

Demons can't even do that much unless the veil is torn as it was in Warden's keep and other places were you see the walking dead.  Even Jowan (who does seem to know his magical lore) says that it's the tearing of the veil that made the walking dead possible.  The Veil is also torn as I said in Soldier's Peak, Circle Tower, Redcliff castle, Ostagar, and the Brecilian Forest.

-Polaris

Well it seems to be torn in alot of places. Which doesn't exactly lower the danger or chance of it happening.

[McHoger]

AlexXIV wrote...

Well it seems to be torn in alot of places. Which doesn't exactly lower the danger or chance of it happening.

How do tears happen anway?

[tmp7704]

IanPolaris wrote...

Evidence for this would be nice.  The only cases of forced possession we see (and anyone and anything can be possessed btw), are when:

1.  The Veil is torn (and the rules change in such locations and living in such a place is as responsible as living in a toxic waste dump)_.

2.  The mage is forcing a contest of wills via the fade (usually when summoning a demon).

Both are voluntary decisions on the part of the mage.  The overwhelming game lore I've seen suggests that it's hard for a demon to possess anyone, even a mage and it generally can not be done by force.

If the possession can only be voluntary and only triggered by the mage forcing "contest of wills", then every single mage who has to undergo the Harrowing could avoid it simply pointing out they never intend to make such attempts in the first place. Instead, they're being tested whether they can withstand possession in the Fade and there's no mention that it's something they have to force themselves on the demon in order to take place, not the other way around.

Also, Wynne mentions not just once that mages continually walk the narrow path that's avoiding getting possessed. Voluntary possession that you pretty much have to force demon into and only if you dabble with demon summons hardly seems to fit that concept.

[tmp7704]

McHoger wrote...

How do tears happen anway?

From the explanations and descriptions in the game they appear to form in areas with (lot of) violent deaths.

[IanPolaris]

McHoger wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Well it seems to be torn in alot of places. Which doesn't exactly lower the danger or chance of it happening.

How do tears happen anway?

The game tells you this.  Lots and lots of death, pain, and suffering will do it.  Also bloodmagic can do it when summoning demons (too many at once).  The only creature we find that can do it voluntarily is the Baroness and only after she (uniquely!) managed to manifest herself as a full pride demon in the real world.

Also places where the Veil is torn is the exception and not the rule so you can't say that it's not much better.  Virtually all the Thedas has the veil in decent condition.  There are a few local places where it isn't, and those places are usually well known or it's quickly obvious.

-Polaris

[LobselVith8]

PurebredCorn wrote...

Alodar wrote...

If a group of people existed in todays supposedly educated society that had these abilites, those modern mages would be controlled/locked up/persecuted without thought.


There is no question it is 100% reasonable for ordinary folks to want mages locked up or killed.

My mages may resent that, but it is the only reasonable reaction for villagers to have.

Alodar

I agree with this completely, and in fact feel like mages still get off easy in Ferelden. It's sad but true, it would be irresposible to do anything else but keep people who have this kind of power far, far away from the general populace.

I don't think that imprisoning and dehumanizing innocent people is okay, nor do they get off "easy" when they're in a prison where they have no rights and can be killed or given a lobotomy by the Knight-Commander based on "evidence" that he never has to provide to the First Enchanter (Magi Origin). A mage-hating Cullen can end up as the new Knight-Commander and rule the Circle in fear.

[IanPolaris]

tmp7704 wrote...

If the possession can only be voluntary and only triggered by the mage forcing "contest of wills", then every single mage who has to undergo the Harrowing could avoid it simply pointing out they never intend to make such attempts in the first place. Instead, they're being tested whether they can withstand possession in the Fade and there's no mention that it's something they have to force themselves on the demon in order to take place, not the other way around.

The Harrowing is almost criminal actually and very much a special case.  In that case, the a mage is being thrust into the veil and infected with a demon and told to "sink or swim".  Even the good spirits of the fade view the test with utter distain and rightfully so.

Also, Wynne mentions not just once that mages continually walk the narrow path that's avoiding getting possessed. Voluntary possession that you pretty much have to force demon into and only if you dabble with demon summons hardly seems to fit that concept.

If you want to make quick money, take what Wynne says and bet against it and you'll be right almost all of the time.  Wynne says a lot and pontificates a lot, and is usually wrong.  In fact I'd likely be able to count on one hand (with fingers to spare) when Wynne is right about pretty much anything.

-Polaris