1283 réponses à ce sujet

[RavenholmeCP42]

David Gaider wrote...

Alodar wrote...
If a group of people existed in todays supposedly educated society that had these abilites, those modern mages would be controlled/locked up/persecuted without thought.

There is no question it is 100% reasonable for ordinary folks to want mages locked up or killed.

Indeed. The reason the "templars are bad" view is so prevalent is because most of us live in cushy western societies where anything that smells like oppression is Very Bad, and the only determining factor in how one should treat mages is how fair that treatment is. Of course, we don't have to live with the idea that Poor Oppressed Joe living next door to us might be secretly controlling our mind to make us like him-- or one day turn into a monster and kill our entire family-- but that doesn't need to stop us from being idealistic in our fantasy worlds, now, does it?

And if God were physical, your average person would want to kill  him. Out of fear, and out of anger ("Why did you let XXXX die, he was  only 9! You bastard! What use are you!" etc etc).

I'm with Gaider on this, if Mages were real, your average one would not be a nice  healer going out to lay hands on the sick - why not? Because they're  human, and thus inherently flawed (By nature), and seeing as they've got an inherent ability that puts them above mundane, of course a large fraction of them will exploit them. Oh, sure, some will be really nice people and use their powers for good, love and justice, but the majority will use it to get ahead, and for that reason, they'd have to be  controlled or killed, because they'd be able to wipe us mundanes out of existence if they chose.

(Bah, messed up quote, curse you strange posting box!)

Modifié par RavenholmeCP42, 03 février 2011 - 06:35 .

[IanPolaris]

PurebredCorn wrote...
I agree with this completely, and in fact feel like mages still get off easy in Ferelden. It's sad but true, it would be irresposible to do anything else but keep people who have this kind of power far, far away from the general populace.

Other societies don't see the need to imprison mages and they don't seem to suffer for it.  I also think you'd change your tune if you were the one that was imprisoned without doing anything.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

RavenholmeCP42 wrote...

I'm with Gaider
on this, if Mages were real, your average one would not be a nice
healer going out to lay hands on the sick - why not? Because they're
human, and thus inherently flawed (By nature), and seeing as they've got
an inherent ability that puts them above mundane, of course a large
fraction of them will exploit them. Oh, sure, some will be really nice
people and use their powers for good, love and justice, but the majority
will use it to get ahead, and for that reason, they'd have to be
controlled or killed, because they'd be able to wipe us mundanes out of
existence if they chose.

In so doing, you then pave the way and make Mages like Uldred (and X-Men's Magneto) inevitable and make it inevitable that mages will eventually rise up and create the very problem you say you want to avoid.

-Polaris

Edit:  Incorporated quote fixe in quoted post

Modifié par IanPolaris, 03 février 2011 - 06:36 .

[LobselVith8]

RavenholmeCP42 wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Alodar wrote...
If a group of people existed in todays supposedly educated society that had these abilites, those modern mages would be controlled/locked up/persecuted without thought.

There is no question it is 100% reasonable for ordinary folks to want mages locked up or killed.

Indeed. The reason the "templars are bad" view is so prevalent is because most of us live in cushy western societies where anything that smells like oppression is Very Bad, and the only determining factor in how one should treat mages is how fair that treatment is. Of course, we don't have to live with the idea that Poor Oppressed Joe living next door to us might be secretly controlling our mind to make us like him-- or one day turn into a monster and kill our entire family-- but that doesn't need to stop us from being idealistic in our fantasy worlds, now, does it?

And if God were physical, your average person would want to kill  him. Out of fear, and out of anger ("Why did you let XXXX die, he was  only 9! You bastard! What use are you!" etc etc).

I'm with Gaider on this, if Mages were real, your average one would not be a nice  healer going out to lay hands on the sick - why not? Because they're  human, and thus inherently flawed (By nature), and seeing as they've got an inherent ability that puts them above mundane, of course a large fraction of them will exploit them. Oh, sure, some will be really nice people and use their powers for good, love and justice, but the majority will use it to get ahead, and for that reason, they'd have to be  controlled or killed, because they'd be able to wipe us mundanes out of existence if they chose.

(Bah, messed up quote, curse you strange posting box!)

Except we see that the Chasind, the Dalish, and the people of Rivain don't automatically hate mages. Clearly, the Chantry of Andraste has contributed to that - the reference to the Reverand Mother in Redcliffe not raising a mob against your human mage, the religious Keli saying that mages are cursed and it'd be better if the mages were killed, and Knight-Commander Greagoir blaming all mages for the Blights and saying mages were cursed.

[IanPolaris]

[dp]

[tmp7704]

IanPolaris wrote...

The Harrowing is almost criminal actually and very much a special case.  In that case, the a mage is being thrust into the veil and infected with a demon and told to "sink or swim".  Even the good spirits of the fade view the test with utter distain and rightfully so.

I don't recall my mage being infected with anything. Where exactly do you get this info from?

edit: explanation of Harrowing in the wiki:

"The test involves a mage entering the Fade with the use of lyrium. Once in the Fade, the mage apprentice must face, and subsequently overcome, a demon who wishes to posses the mage's body and enter the living realm. The demon is summoned by the mages of the Circle of Magi to the same part of the Fade the mage apprentice enters and is promised a living body will be waiting for it when it arrives. If the mage apprentice succeeds in resisting the demon he is granted the title of mage and becomes a full member of the Circle of Magi."

summoning to the same area of the Fade and actually infecting the person are quite different things, i'd say.

edit 2: plus quite obviously, how do you infect someone with a demon when at the same time you maintain that the only way for demon to enter the host is the willingness for that to happen from the host himself/herself?

Wynne says a lot and pontificates a lot, and is usually wrong.  In fact I'd likely be able to count on one hand (with fingers to spare) when Wynne is right about pretty much anything.

Hardly a proof that she isn't right in this particular case.

Other societies don't see the need to imprison mages and they don't seem to suffer for it.  I also think you'd change your tune if you were the one that was imprisoned without doing anything.

Mr.Gaider already pretty much pointed out in this thread that if these other societies suffer thanks to how they choose to deal with their mages, we simply know nothing about it. Lack of knowledge about the issues shouldn't be confused with lack of actual issues.

Modifié par tmp7704, 03 février 2011 - 06:44 .

[LobselVith8]

David Gaider wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...
You are using the Tevinter Imperium like it is some curse word.  We had a more a less real life example of the Tevinter Imperium (sans the magic of course) with the Roman empire.  It had the slavery and all those vices as well.  We still however treat the age of the Roman Empire as a great period or learning, culture, and all that jazz.

And? Yes, the Tevinter Imperium no doubt brought a great many advancements -- they introduced dwarven commerce and engineering to the world, for instance. That doesn't stop the fact that it was created through the tyranny of mages over the non-magical... and provides plenty of evidence for what happens when mages rule (and thus why the non-magical might be leery today). Any moralizing you want to mix into that is kind of beside the point.

I don't see why the actions of the Tevinter Imperium should be held against all mages. Going along the same pattern you've described, couldn't the elves make the same argument about humans in power by citing both Arlathan and the Dales?

[IanPolaris]

tmp7704 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

The Harrowing is almost criminal actually and very much a special case.  In that case, the a mage is being thrust into the veil and infected with a demon and told to "sink or swim".  Even the good spirits of the fade view the test with utter distain and rightfully so.

I don't recall my mage being infected with anything. Where exactly do you get this info from?

Alistair says this when he describes witnessing a harrowing first hand as a templar-novitiate.  Also it's confirmed by Mouse, Valor, and others.  You are in fact thrust into the fade (forced beyond the veil which is like tearing it) and a demon is summoned and promised a meal.

Wynne says a lot and pontificates a lot, and is usually wrong.  In fact I'd likely be able to count on one hand (with fingers to spare) when Wynne is right about pretty much anything.

Hardly a proof that she isn't right in this particular case.

You can't use Wynne as a reliable source for your position and that was my point. Wynne is wrong about so much so often that you can not take her word as game lore.

Other societies don't see the need to imprison mages and they don't seem to suffer for it.  I also think you'd change your tune if you were the one that was imprisoned without doing anything.

Mr.Gaider already pretty much pointed out in this thread that if these other societies suffer thanks to how they choose to deal with their mages, we simply know nothing about it. Lack of knowledge about the issues shouldn't be confused with lack of actual issues.

No he doesn't.  He implied it (and Lob and I both openly called him out on this) but he never says as WoG that these societies are worse off and they suffer from abominations.  I have pointed out many times that the signs of such suffering in those society is simply not there.

-Polaris

[tmp7704]

IanPolaris wrote...

Alistair says this when he describes witnessing a harrowing first hand as a templar-novitiate.  Also it's confirmed by Mouse, Valor, and others.  You are in fact thrust into the fade (forced beyond the veil which is like tearing it) and a demon is summoned and promised a meal.

I have edited my post meantime. Summoning demon to the same area of the Fade and promising it a meal (which can happen if the demon succeeds in possessing the mage) is quite different from actually infesting mage with a demon.

No he doesn't.  He implied it (and Lob and I both openly called him out on this) but he never says as WoG that these societies are worse off and they suffer from abominations.  I have pointed out many times that the signs of such suffering in those society is simply not there.

He points out you have no way of knowing it because you don't know first thing about most of these societies. If you do, please provide your sources.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Where is Wynne exactly wrong, and not merely of a different opinion than you?

Edit: And DG just said, that societies not restriting mages, suffer from abominations when tehy happen. Almost that exact wording even.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 03 février 2011 - 06:51 .

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Where is Wynne exactly wrong, and not merely of a different opinion than you?

Edit: And DG just said, that societies not restriting mages, suffer from abominations when tehy happen. Almost that exact wording even.

And they apparently can contain the abominations without the need for armored drug addicts to become involved since Rivain, the Dalish, and the Chasind aren't overrun with abominations.

As even the Bioware Blog reads:

"Some are saying, however, that this needs to change. They remind the world that mages are not controlled by templars everywhere in Thedas: not among the Rivaini witches, the Dalish keepers or the Tevinter magisters… and those societies are, arguably, no worse off."

And the anti-mage stigma clearly results from the Andrastian Chantry placing mages in the same category as the Tevinter Imperium (like Greagoir does in the Magi Origin):

"By the common folk they are seen as self-sacrificing men and women, vigilant warriors that form the first line of defense between humanity and the chaos that once ruled the land during the old Imperium. To the mages they are often seen as oppressors, even well-meaning ones, and the gap between them is growing larger with each passing year."

Modifié par LobselVith8, 03 février 2011 - 07:07 .

[October Sixth]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Where is Wynne exactly wrong, and not merely of a different opinion than you?

Edit: And DG just said, that societies not restriting mages, suffer from abominations when tehy happen. Almost that exact wording even.

And they apparently can contain the abominations without the need for armored drug addicts to become involved since Rivain, the Dalish, and the Chasind aren't overrun with abominations.

Well, either that or they all die out and no one notices because they're all alone in the forest. Either way...

[Nerevar-as]

LobselVith8 wrote...

And they apparently can contain the abominations without the need for armored drug addicts to become involved since Rivain, the Dalish, and the Chasind aren't overrun with abominations.

What kind of societies are they? If you take something similar to Aiel from WoT, or even Turians from ME, the majority of individuals would have the skills to face such a foe. Most Dalish for instance seem to have martial training. People in a normal medieval village wouldn´t.

[LobselVith8]

October Sixth wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Where is Wynne exactly wrong, and not merely of a different opinion than you?

Edit: And DG just said, that societies not restriting mages, suffer from abominations when tehy happen. Almost that exact wording even.

And they apparently can contain the abominations without the need for armored drug addicts to become involved since Rivain, the Dalish, and the Chasind aren't overrun with abominations.

Well, either that or they all die out and no one notices because they're all alone in the forest. Either way...

Yeah, I think someone would notice if all the Dalish clans or the Chasind tribes all died out... not to mention the entire nation of Rivain...

[tmp7704]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Yeah, I think someone would notice if all the Dalish clans or the Chasind tribes all died out... not to mention the entire nation of Rivain...

Took long time for any word to get out about Redcliffe situation too, and it's only the single most important trading spot on the route between Orlais and Ferelden.

In contrast, plenty people spend their entire lives never seeing a Dalish elf (seeing Velanna was big deal for city elves in Awakening) and it's even easier with the Chasind who live in the far south where few ever travel.

[Dave of Canada]

I had this discussion before on the Origins forums but I was called a monster because I didn't value mage freedom. So I'll just come here and say that a cat, when possessed by a rage demon, is capable of killing three templar.

Three trained individuals on how to deal with the situation were killed by a possessed cat. I don't even want to think of a Mage with the power of a demon behind it going crazy in a town with no Templar nearby.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 03 février 2011 - 07:26 .

[tmp7704]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Three trained individuals on how to deal with the situation were killed by a possessed cat. I don't even want to think of a Mage with the power of a demon behind it going crazy in a town with no Templar nearby/

Merrill getting possessed and forcing player to either put her down or face game over could provide interesting view on the issue.

Probably not appreciated very much by all her fans, though...

[HopHazzard]

Dave of Canada wrote...

I had this discussion before on the Origins forums but I was called a monster because I didn't value mage freedom. So I'll just come here and say that a cat, when possessed by a rage demon, is capable of killing three templar.

Three trained individuals on how to deal with the situation were killed by a possessed cat. I don't even want to think of a Mage with the power of a demon behind it going crazy in a town with no Templar nearby.

I know that I personally am not arguing for a complete lack of oversight. Just that the current system is flawed and overly oppressive.

[October Sixth]

LobselVith8 wrote...

October Sixth wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Where is Wynne exactly wrong, and not merely of a different opinion than you?

Edit: And DG just said, that societies not restriting mages, suffer from abominations when tehy happen. Almost that exact wording even.

And they apparently can contain the abominations without the need for armored drug addicts to become involved since Rivain, the Dalish, and the Chasind aren't overrun with abominations.

Well, either that or they all die out and no one notices because they're all alone in the forest. Either way...

Yeah, I think someone would notice if all the Dalish clans or the Chasind tribes all died out... not to mention the entire nation of Rivain...

I'm not talking about ALL the Dalish clans, but a demon could kill a single clan without notice. I don't think we know enough about Chasind or Rivain sociopolitical organization to say what might happen there.

[Elsariel]

Harid wrote...

Boggles my mind how many people on these forums believe mages deserve sovereignty when they screw up all the time, and show little regard for their fellow man, and don't actively try to stop the deviant mages in their communities.

They probably all play mages.

Lol wut?  Since when are the mages allowed to police themselves?  They don't have autonomy to do anything.  Your accusations are false.  They don't screw up all the time or show little regard for their fellow man.  Many mages you encounter in-game are good folk. 

Just because one has the power do do harm to others doesn't mean they'll act on it.  Mages aren't more evil than the regular people of Thedas.  Some are good eggs, some are bad eggs.   Some will choose to heal and protect, others will choose to harm and destroy.  

[LobselVith8]

tmp7704 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Yeah, I think someone would notice if all the Dalish clans or the Chasind tribes all died out... not to mention the entire nation of Rivain...

Took long time for any word to get out about Redcliffe situation too, and it's only the single most important trading spot on the route between Orlais and Ferelden.

In contrast, plenty people spend their entire lives never seeing a Dalish elf (seeing Velanna was big deal for city elves in Awakening) and it's even easier with the Chasind who live in the far south where few ever travel.

The Redcliffe situation can be argued as a product of the anti-mage propaganda instituted by the Chantry of Andraste. Isolde was a pious woman who didn't want her son to be a mage. after all. Regardless, the reason nobody aided Redcliffe is because they were too busy with the civil war to answer Tegan's urgent call for help, which Tegan admits.

Dave of Canada wrote...

I had this discussion before on the Origins forums but I was called a monster because I didn't value mage freedom. So I'll just come here and say that a cat, when possessed by a rage demon, is capable of killing three templar.

Three trained individuals on how to deal with the situation were killed by a possessed cat. I don't even want to think of a Mage with the power of a demon behind it going crazy in a town with no Templar nearby.

Let's see: the abominations and the Pride Demon Uldred were defeated by the Grey Warden and the abominations were defeated in the days before the Order of Templars and the Chantry of Andraste.

October Sixth wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Yeah, I think someone would notice if all the Dalish clans or the Chasind tribes all died out... not to mention the entire nation of Rivain...

I'm not talking about ALL the Dalish clans, but a demon could kill a single clan without notice. I don't think we know enough about Chasind or Rivain sociopolitical organization to say what might happen there.

We clearly see what happens with Chantry oversight: abominations. It's the reason the mage turned to a demon in the Abomination codex, its the reason behind the inception of the Rite of Anulment, and it's the reason Uldred used demonology and got possessed during the mages attempt to be freed from the Chantry.

[Altima Darkspells]

And let us not forget that mages aren't the only ones who cause destruction, mayhem, and death in the world.



By the topic creator's logic, we should lock up all the Ferelden nobles. There were countless people Loghain offed at Ostagar. Who knows how many dozens or hundreds Howe killed during his sneak attack of the Cousland castle.



Within any particular group, there will always be the deranged, ambitious, or downright cruel. To label, much less oppress, and entire section of people just for the actions of a few is, well, pretty much the very definition of wrong.



As for the Chantry, it's pretty damn clear that they use Mages as scapegoats, especially during their formation. Would they have been as popular if they had all but named themselves Religion of Anti-Tevinter, or would they have simply been another fractuous cult?

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Where is Wynne exactly wrong, and not merely of a different opinion than you?

Edit: And DG just said, that societies not restriting mages, suffer from abominations when tehy happen. Almost that exact wording even.

Yep and you walked right into the leap of logic that DG was hoping you would.  Any society has to deal with abominations as they happen.  Nothing extraordinary was said..,.athough David clearly meant you to think so.  We are not told how common those cases are, and given the total lack of social footprint evidence (such as the Black Death in our own society), I'd have to say it's pretty darn rare and even Bioware's own blog raises this same point.

As for the harrowing, Alistair called it 'infected' and the Wiki is not a reliable source of game lore since it too is frequently wrong....but being sent to the same place as a demon and having that demon summoned and promised a meal sounds a great deal different than a typical demon-dream encounter, now doesn't it?  (Esp when you can't wake up in the harrowing and you can from a normal dream).

You can't pretend the harrowing is anything like a normal case of encountering a demon in the fade.

As for Wynne being wrong, just to name three specatcularly good examples:

1.  She claims that only one mage is a Grey Warden at a time...and uses that to accuse you of bloodmagic.  This is demonstrably false not just in Origins (Soldier's Peak) but most of DAA as well.

2.  She claims the Imperial Chantry outlawed bloodmagic.  In fact they did not.  They outlawed mind-control magic, and that's a big difference.

3.  She claims that Adralla was a bard.  In fact she was a bloodmage.

In addition, Wynne strongly implies that she was badly wounded in combat and because of this heroism couldn't make it back in time to short-stop the cowardly Uldred.  In fact if you take Loghain and Wynne back to Ostagar, you learn that she along with the rest of the circle mages cut and ran almost from the start.

What Wynne preaches and what she actually practices I've found are seldom withing even nodding aquaintance of each other.

-Polaris

[October Sixth]

LobselVith8 wrote...

We clearly see what happens with Chantry oversight: abominations. It's the reason the mage turned to a demon in the Abomination codex, its the reason behind the inception of the Rite of Anulment, and it's the reason Uldred used demonology and got possessed during the mages attempt to be freed from the Chantry.

That's not what I'm talking about at all.

I said: Dalish, Chasind, and Rivain are not examples of superior models because we don't know if they are superior

You said: The Chantry creates abominations.

Even if that were true, a point which is largely determined by your personal assignment of guilt, it is irrelevant to the argument that the Dalish, Chasind, and Rivain may be no better. Maybe their methods lead to abominations too. Do you know that isn't the case? No, you do not. That is all I'm saying.