1283 réponses à ce sujet

[IanPolaris]

October Sixth wrote...
I'm not talking about ALL the Dalish clans, but a demon could kill a single clan without notice. I don't think we know enough about Chasind or Rivain sociopolitical organization to say what might happen there.

False.  We know from game lore that the Keepers all meet on a regular basis (about once a decade or so) and that individual clans meet and trade with each other far more often than that.  On a grand historical level (esp since at least someone would escape and the Dalish are all expert woodsmen to a man), knowledge that a clan was wiped out would quickly spread.  Indeed it does if you side with the werewolves.

As for the Chasind, we actually know a fair bit about them since they are socially and politically organized much like many native american tribes.  Again, Chasind talk to each other (when they aren't busy killing each other) and news would quickly spread.

-Polaris

[October Sixth]

IanPolaris wrote...

October Sixth wrote...
I'm not talking about ALL the Dalish clans, but a demon could kill a single clan without notice. I don't think we know enough about Chasind or Rivain sociopolitical organization to say what might happen there.

False.  We know from game lore that the Keepers all meet on a regular basis (about once a decade or so) and that individual clans meet and trade with each other far more often than that.  On a grand historical level (esp since at least someone would escape and the Dalish are all expert woodsmen to a man), knowledge that a clan was wiped out would quickly spread.  Indeed it does if you side with the werewolves.

As for the Chasind, we actually know a fair bit about them since they are socially and politically organized much like many native american tribes.  Again, Chasind talk to each other (when they aren't busy killing each other) and news would quickly spread.

-Polaris

I'm not talking about ALL the Dalish clans, but a demon could kill a single clan without notice by humans.

Modifié par October Sixth, 03 février 2011 - 07:50 .

[LobselVith8]

October Sixth wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

We clearly see what happens with Chantry oversight: abominations. It's the reason the mage turned to a demon in the Abomination codex, its the reason behind the inception of the Rite of Anulment, and it's the reason Uldred used demonology and got possessed during the mages attempt to be freed from the Chantry.

That's not what I'm talking about at all.

I said: Dalish, Chasind, and Rivain are not examples of superior models because we don't know if they are superior

You said: The Chantry creates abominations.

I provided the examples as alternatives to what the Chantry of Andraste does. Clearly, what the templars are doing isn't working if it creates abominations and unrest among the mages.

October Sixth wrote...

Even if that were true, a point which is largely determined by your personal assignment of guilt, it is irrelevant to the argument that the Dalish, Chasind, and Rivain may be no better. Maybe their methods lead to abominations too. Do you know that isn't the case? No, you do not. That is all I'm saying.

The argument is also provided in the Bioware blog that's written in canon that they're arguably no worse off. Clearly, I'm not alone in arguing against Chantry domination over mages.

[October Sixth]

LobselVith8 wrote...

October Sixth wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

We clearly see what happens with Chantry oversight: abominations. It's the reason the mage turned to a demon in the Abomination codex, its the reason behind the inception of the Rite of Anulment, and it's the reason Uldred used demonology and got possessed during the mages attempt to be freed from the Chantry.

That's not what I'm talking about at all.

I said: Dalish, Chasind, and Rivain are not examples of superior models because we don't know if they are superior

You said: The Chantry creates abominations.

I provided the examples as alternatives to what the Chantry of Andraste does. Clearly, what the templars are doing isn't working if it creates abominations and unrest among the mages.

They are alternatives, but are they better alternatives? You don't know.

LobselVith8 wrote...

October Sixth wrote...

Even if that were true, a point which is largely determined by your personal assignment of guilt, it is irrelevant to the argument that the Dalish, Chasind, and Rivain may be no better. Maybe their methods lead to abominations too. Do you know that isn't the case? No, you do not. That is all I'm saying.

The argument is also provided in the Bioware blog that's written in canon that they're arguably no worse off. Clearly, I'm not alone in arguing against Chantry domination over mages.

It's "written in canon that they're arguably no worse off"? How is that an argument. Arguably means it's open to interpretation. You may as well have quoted a dev saying "Dalish may or may not be worse off than everyone else"

Modifié par October Sixth, 03 février 2011 - 07:55 .

[Dave of Canada]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Let's see: the abominations and the Pride Demon Uldred were defeated by the Grey Warden and the abominations were defeated in the days before the Order of Templars and the Chantry of Andraste.

Game mechanics. I can punch the Archdemon to death in my skivvies, doesn't mean it would actually happen. Game wouldn't be fun if Abominations were insanely powerful and ate your face, would it?

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 03 février 2011 - 08:02 .

[IanPolaris]

October Sixth wrote...

It's "written in canon that they're arguably no worse off"? How is that an argument. Arguably means it's open to interpretation. You may as well have quoted a dev saying "Dalish may or may not be worse off than everyone else"

If Bioware hadn't used the word 'arguably' they would have given the game away, and the Devs clearly want there to be at least some canonical doubt.  Since the blog was written from the in-game PoV, the fact this point is raised at all (prior to that Andrastian sources didn't evidence any doubt) is a huge clue.

As for humans not knowing, you are completely missing the point.  If abominations were even only "somewhat" rare and clans on a regular basis (say once per generation) were killed because of them, you'd see that effect in how they viewed magic, accepted mage outsides (esp untrained one) and even down to nursery rhymes and how mages were housed in camps as compared with non-mages.

You see NONE of that, which tells you that abomiations can't be the problem for the Dalish that the Chantry would want you to believe.

-Polaris

[PsychoBlonde]

IanPolaris wrote...

As for the Chasind, we actually know a fair bit about them since they are socially and politically organized much like many native american tribes.  Again, Chasind talk to each other (when they aren't busy killing each other) and news would quickly spread.

Actually, the Chasind are rather more similar to Scottish Highlanders, but any tribal/clannish society is going to be roughly similar.

The ultimate problem with asking "are you for/against mages" is that it comes down to asking, WHICH mages?  The ones who are after power and make no bones about it?  Or the ones who'd be quite happy to earn a living healing people of horrible ailments?

Mages are not all the same any more than any group of people are all the same.  They deserve the same degree of jurisprudence that anyone else merits: innocent until proven guilty.  You don't lock people up just for carrying a sword even though men with swords have slaughtered and oppressed far more people in Thedas than all the mages who have ever existed.  (And you'd better believe that the Tevinter Magisters didn't get to or maintain their positions of power without thousands of men with swords backing them up.)  Mages shouldn't just be locked up simply for being mages, either.

[IanPolaris]

Dave of Canada wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Let's see: the abominations and the Pride Demon Uldred were defeated by the Grey Warden and the abominations were defeated in the days before the Order of Templars and the Chantry of Andraste.

Game mechanics. I can punch the Archdemon to death in my skivvies, doesn't mean it would actually happen. Game wouldn't be fun if Abominations were insanely powerful and ate your face, now would it?

Untrained villages were able to defeat and contain one of the most powerful bloodmage abominations in Thedas (Blackmarsh)....which somehow the Circle Tower System was unable to deal with (hmmm?) and that's even with that abomination being an Orlesian noble.  Just imagine how much better it would have turned out if a competant and trained reaction force were present which included mages?  Somehow I don't think that Blackmarsh would have been extinquished along with the bloodmage......

See the point?  Even powerful mages and abominations can be successfully brought down by mundane means.

-Polaris

[LobselVith8]

October Sixth wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I provided the examples as alternatives to what the Chantry of Andraste does. Clearly, what the templars are doing isn't working if it creates abominations and unrest among the mages.

They are alternatives, but are they better alternatives? You don't know.

The system currently in place resulting in abominations and unrest certainly isn't working. Why not address this rather than ignore it?

October Sixth wrote...

It's "written in canon that they're arguably no worse off"? How is that an argument. Arguably means it's open to interpretation. You may as well have quoted a dev saying "Dalish may or may not be worse off than everyone else"

Clearly, the Chantry of Andraste disagrees, given their control of the mages across Thedas with their drug addicted soldiers imprisoning them, so it's a point to be argued.

Dave of Canada wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Let's see: the abominations and the Pride Demon Uldred were defeated by the Grey Warden and the abominations were defeated in the days before the Order of Templars and the Chantry of Andraste.

Game mechanics. I can punch the Archdemon to death in my skivvies, doesn't mean it would actually happen. Game wouldn't be fun if Abominations were insanely powerful and ate your face, now would it?

And the abominations were defeated in the days before the Chantry of Andraste and the Order of Templars, or else Thedas would be overrun with abominations and our protagonist would be a Pride Demon.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 03 février 2011 - 08:07 .

[Beerfish]

"Mages shouldn't just be locked up simply for being mages, either."



Eh? But ma'm you just ignored all the tragedy in my original post. They have caused so much death n destruction and this is with them there Templars n the Chantry to try and look after them. No ma'm sorry you can have all the mages ya like in your village. Just keep em well away from this part o the country. We see any of them mages round here an we will turn em in or kill em. Trouble follows them around where ever they go.

[October Sixth]

IanPolaris wrote...

October Sixth wrote...

It's "written in canon that they're arguably no worse off"? How is that an argument. Arguably means it's open to interpretation. You may as well have quoted a dev saying "Dalish may or may not be worse off than everyone else"

If Bioware hadn't used the word 'arguably' they would have given the game away, and the Devs clearly want there to be at least some canonical doubt.  Since the blog was written from the in-game PoV, the fact this point is raised at all (prior to that Andrastian sources didn't evidence any doubt) is a huge clue.

As for humans not knowing, you are completely missing the point.  If abominations were even only "somewhat" rare and clans on a regular basis (say once per generation) were killed because of them, you'd see that effect in how they viewed magic, accepted mage outsides (esp untrained one) and even down to nursery rhymes and how mages were housed in camps as compared with non-mages.

You see NONE of that, which tells you that abomiations can't be the problem for the Dalish that the Chantry would want you to believe.

-Polaris

Would you? There are a couple problems with that.

1) In the medium of the game you're not able to access Dalish culture. Do you EVER hear a Dalish nursery rhyme?
2) You're projecting his own social conditioning onto another culture. How do you know how the Dalish would respond to having abominations in their camps. Oh sure, you can make predictions, but to claim knowledge the way you do is downright arrogant.

[commanderVal]

This may have started as a very hilarious thread but it's turned into a very interesting discussion. Look at it this way, if mages were let free or something, they would want to be a part of the general society and because if their different nature from the said general society people would shun them and isolate them. It is only inevitable, humans as a rule fear and hate everything that is different or in someway more powerful than them.
Such a case would cause these mages to be resentful, they could in time grow so resentful that they would want to do something about it and perhaps try to prove that they are not as harmful. But seeing the power they weild, people could get scared and we know that a scared group of villagers are more dangerous than any abomination. Or have we all forgotten the old witch hunts of Old England? Those women were not real witches, they died a miserable death. But these mages have such power at their fingertips and would naturally retaliate and would wipe out the village and maybe more.
Such a situation cannot arise if they are already isolated and kept within a tower built at the center of a lake. If at all something does happen, it can be quickly and effectiviely contained and put down with minimal loss. So unless anybody has an idea on how to make humans more receptive, I think the circle tower is our best bet- both for the mages' safety as well as the people's.

[Heather Cline]

I like the mage class. That's all I have to say on the matter.

[Maria Caliban]

Beerfish wrote...

Does anyone actually LIKE mages?

I'm rather fond of them.

[October Sixth]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The system currently in place resulting in abominations and unrest certainly isn't working. Why not address this rather than ignore it?

By all means respond, just don't use the Dalish example. You seem to be ignoring or misunderstanding my point...

It's "written in canon that they're arguably no worse off"? How is that an argument. Arguably means it's open to interpretation. You may as well have quoted a dev saying "Dalish may or may not be worse off than everyone else"

Clearly, the Chantry of Andraste disagrees, given their control of the mages across Thedas with their drug addicted soldiers imprisoning them, so it's a point to be argued.

Yes... the Chantry disagrees that... the Dalish are worse off??? This doesn't respond at all to my point.

I'm just going to ask now, and don't get offended by this because it's an honest question not an attempted insult:
Is English your first language?

Modifié par October Sixth, 03 février 2011 - 08:12 .

[LobselVith8]

Beerfish wrote...

"Mages shouldn't just be locked up simply for being mages, either."

Eh? But ma'm you just ignored all the tragedy in my original post. They have caused so much death n destruction and this is with them there Templars n the Chantry to try and look after them. No ma'm sorry you can have all the mages ya like in your village. Just keep em well away from this part o the country. We see any of them mages round here an we will turn em in or kill em. Trouble follows them around where ever they go.

Nobody ignored it, but it failed to address how others have caused destruction as well. Should all humans be locked up? I'm certain the Dalish would point to Arlathan and the Dales as all the proof needed that humans are unable to govern themselves.

As for the comments about the Chantry, I respectfully disagree. The Chantry of Andraste basically enslaves mages to its system, with the tranquil being pretty much literal slaves who have no emotions and are tasked with handling manual labor and crafting magical items, while the mages have no basic rights and are thrown into prisons because centuries ago, mages held a nonviolent protest in a cathedral, and instead of Divine Ambrosia II declaring an Exalted March on her own cathedral (that the templars talked her out of) they were segregated instead.

[PsychoBlonde]

Beerfish wrote...

They have caused so much death n destruction and this is with them there Templars n the Chantry to try and look after them.

Who's this mythical "they" you speak of?  You could say precisely this same thing about humans in general.  If you want to be "safe", you should kill absolutely EVERYONE.  Of course, then you'll be dead, but you'll be "safe"!

Life ain't safe.  What happens when you drive all the mages away and the plague comes and you have no mages to cure it?  What happens when the Qunari come and you have no mages to help fend them off?  These are precisely the sorts of situations that a proper idea of justice helps you deal with and prepare for.  Proponents of injustice always claim that they can see the future--they can see the damage mages "will" cause.  How about the damage mages "will" prevent?

Innocent until proven guilty.  Otherwise it's just yourself that you're hurting.

[IanPolaris]

October Sixth wrote...

[Would you? There are a couple problems with that.

1) In the medium of the game you're not able to access Dalish culture. Do you EVER hear a Dalish nursery rhyme?

Actually you do.  You hear the Uethenara (from the Hahren if you are a Dalish warden, or later on from Lenaya if you aren not).  You also see how Dalish teach their children and can even take part when you meet the Dalish.  Given that, we actually see quite a bit of "one day of the life of the Dalish" when we are there both as a Dalish and non-Dalish Warden.

2) You're projecting his own social conditioning onto another culture. How do you know how the Dalish would respond to having abominations in their camps. Oh sure, you can make predictions, but to claim knowledge the way you do is downright arrogant.

Sorry but this objection in the game is completely invalid.  Elves and Humans in the game have clearly identical psychologies.  Your objection might have merit if Elves had a completely different psychology and sociology, but in the game they do not .

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

[dp]

[LobselVith8]

October Sixth wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The system currently in place resulting in abominations and unrest certainly isn't working. Why not address this rather than ignore it?

By all means respond, just don't use the Dalish example. You seem to be ignoring or misunderstanding my point...

You don't seem to have a point, that's the problem. I address that there are other cultures out there that don't hate mages automatically, and have been argued to be no worse for having mages living alongside non-mages, but all you do is say "how much do you know about them?" in response. You gloss over how the Chantry basically conditions abominations from the codex entries and even in A Broken Circle.

October Sixth wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Clearly, the Chantry of Andraste disagrees, given their control of the mages across Thedas with their drug addicted soldiers imprisoning them, so it's a point to be argued.

Yes... the Chantry disagrees that... the Dalish or worse off??? This doesn't respond at all to my point.

I'm just going to ask now, and don't get offended by this because it's an honest question not an attempted insult:
Is English your first language?

You mean when you inferred that there was no point to the in canon arguments over mages not being locked up by the Chantry because the line included "arguably" and I addressed why it would be argued in the first place - you now think I lack comprehension for the English language because I ignored your silly example and addressed the matter at hand? When you actually have a point to make instead of running around in circles, feel free to let everyone here know.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 03 février 2011 - 08:18 .

[October Sixth]

IanPolaris wrote...

October Sixth wrote...

[Would you? There are a couple problems with that.

1) In the medium of the game you're not able to access Dalish culture. Do you EVER hear a Dalish nursery rhyme?

Actually you do.  You hear the Uethenara (from the Hahren if you are a Dalish warden, or later on from Lenaya if you aren not).  You also see how Dalish teach their children and can even take part when you meet the Dalish.  Given that, we actually see quite a bit of "one day of the life of the Dalish" when we are there both as a Dalish and non-Dalish Warden.

Okay, then let me ask you a follow up question: Do we have an exhaustive list of their nursery rhymes?

My point is, and I hope you can at least agree with this, we certainly do not learn all there is to know about Dalish culture. We experience it briefly, but not completely. There are limitations to our knowledge and exposure. Therefore, there is room for cultural remnants that tell us more about the Dalish relationship with magic.

2) You're projecting his own social conditioning onto another culture. How do you know how the Dalish would respond to having abominations in their camps. Oh sure, you can make predictions, but to claim knowledge the way you do is downright arrogant.

Sorry but this objection in the game is completely invalid.  Elves and Humans in the game have clearly identical psychologies.  Your objection might have merit if Elves had a completely different psychology and sociology, but in the game they do not .

-Polaris

Humans have very similar physiologies too (I assume that's what you meant). That doesn't mean cultural or social practices translate accross them. Assuming you really do mean they have clearly identical psychologies you're going to have to explain how you know that.

Modifié par October Sixth, 03 février 2011 - 08:19 .

[October Sixth]

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

[quote]October Sixth wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

The system currently in place resulting in abominations and unrest certainly isn't working. Why not address this rather than ignore it?[/quote]

By all means respond, just don't use the Dalish example. You seem to be ignoring or misunderstanding my point... [/quote]

You don't seem to have a point, that's the problem. I address that there are other cultures out there that don't hate mages automatically, and have been argued to be no worse for having mages living alongside non-mages, but all you do is say "how much do you know about them?" in response. You gloss over how the Chantry basically conditions abominations from the codex entries and even in A Broken Circle.[/quote]
Probably because that isn't my point, my point is the lack of alternative examples.

[quote]October Sixth wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Clearly, the Chantry of Andraste disagrees, given their control of the mages across Thedas with their drug addicted soldiers imprisoning them, so it's a point to be argued.[/quote]

Yes... the Chantry disagrees that... the Dalish or worse off??? This doesn't respond at all to my point.

I'm just going to ask now, and don't get offended by this because it's an honest question not an attempted insult:
Is English your first language? [/quote]

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...You mean when you inferred that there was no point to the in canon arguments over mages not being locked up by the Chantry because the line included "arguably" and I addressed why it would be argued in the first place - you now think I lack comprehension for the English language because I ignored your silly example and addressed the matter at hand? When you actually have a point to make instead of running around in circles, feel free to let everyone here know.[/quote][/quote]
I'm not talking about the Chantry, I'm talking about your use of the dev quote to prove something when it doesn't prove anything.

Please just answer my question about your native language. There's no shame in speaking English as a second language, but it'll help me better understand where you're coming from.

Modifié par October Sixth, 03 février 2011 - 08:24 .

[LobselVith8]

October Sixth wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Actually you do.  You hear the Uethenara (from the Hahren if you are a Dalish warden, or later on from Lenaya if you aren not).  You also see how Dalish teach their children and can even take part when you meet the Dalish.  Given that, we actually see quite a bit of "one day of the life of the Dalish" when we are there both as a Dalish and non-Dalish Warden.

Okay, then let me ask you a follow up question: Do we have an exhaustive list of their nursery rhymes?

My point is, and I hope you can at least agree with this, we certainly do not learn all there is to know about Dalish culture. We experience it briefly, but not completely. There are limitations to our knowledge and exposure. Therefore, there is room for cultural remnants that tell us more about the Dalish relationship with magic.

I see no reason why we shouldn't address what we do know about the Dalish in this discussion, especially when we see no fear or hostility towards mages among the Dalish. We see that there are mages in the Dalish Warden Origin, we see that Zathrian and Lanaya are mages as well as two other Dalish and Aenirin, we know Lanaya was up against several others who could also have been mages and she references that over time they came to accept her despite originally being an outsider, and we see Velanna has knowledge of the arcane arts and was the First to her clan. Why not address the different reactions that a clearly mage-tolerant group like the Dalish have when compared to the anti-mage Andrastian societies we encounter in DA:O?

October Sixth wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Sorry but this objection in the game is completely invalid.  Elves and Humans in the game have clearly identical psychologies.  Your objection might have merit if Elves had a completely different psychology and sociology, but in the game they do not .

-Polaris

Humans have very similar physiologies too (I assume that's what you meant). That doesn't mean cultural or social practices translate accross them. Assuming you really do mean they have clearly identical psychologies you're going to have to explain how you know that.

Except we can see that even humans in Rivain and among the Chasind tribes don't share the anti-mage views of the Andrastian Chantry (and neither do the people of Haven, as Kolgrim vocally states and Father Eirik proves), so it's clearly not an issue of being elven vs. being human. Clearly, their upbringing is the reason behind their open acceptance of mages while the Andrastian societies have openly hostile and hateful views of mages and magic because of their religious upbringing.

[Miri1984]

Since we're on the topic of mages - is the Harrowing just a waste of time? I mean, it didn't stop Uldred from becoming possessed. And is there any sure fire way of finding out if someone's a blood Mage? Or do the Templars just have to guess?

[LobselVith8]

October Sixth wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You don't seem to have a point, that's the problem. I address that there are other cultures out there that don't hate mages automatically, and have been argued to be no worse for having mages living alongside non-mages, but all you do is say "how much do you know about them?" in response. You gloss over how the Chantry basically conditions abominations from the codex entries and even in A Broken Circle.

Probably because that isn't my point, my point is the lack of alternative examples.

We have alternative examples. We even have in canon discussion about those very examples. You simply choose to ignore them.

October Sixth wrote...

I'm not talking about the Chantry, I'm talking about your use of the dev quote to prove something when it doesn't prove anything.

It wasn't a dev quote. Are you sure you're not the only who has problems with comprehension?

October Sixth wrote...

Please just answer my question about your native language. There's no shame in speaking English as a second language, but it'll help me better understand where you're coming from.

Coming from the person who can't tell the difference between a quote from a dev and an entry designed as a codex entry...