157 réponses à ce sujet

[Razor_Zeng]

If BioWare made a complete Alt Appearance pack with all available characters in it (including Zaeed and Kasumi) and sold it for 480 MS/BW points it would probably sell better then those semi expensive three packs. Especially if they didn't have those silly visors they keep making the NPCs wear.

[Terror_K]

Jebel Krong wrote...

no they're not. you can keep
pretending, but that won't make them so, especially as there are several
contradictory elements within them that conflict with the lore of the games that you love to adhere to.

ME2 itself either contradicts or makes a mockery of more Mass Effect lore than any of the books or comics I've read do (note: I haven't read the new one yet surrounding TIM, so can't comment there). Does that mean that ME2 isn't part of the Mass Effect lore suddenly? Revelation was pretty tight from what I recall, as was Ascension, at least with regards to ME1.

finally you admit it - you are in a minority. look, i'm the first to say either game wasn't perfect but i'd rather they spent their time fixing the important stuff rather than the minutiae of whether someone's outfit is going to be acceptable in all possible scenarios, yes?

What is important is a point of view. As it stands with Mass Effect 2, I can't take the game or the IP seriously any more with my squaddies running around me in what they're wearing. When immersion is constantly being broken like that, especially when it's not even for a reason that is gameplay related at all and is purely an aesthetic factor (unlike the thermal clips, which I hate, but can at least admit add to gameplay to a certain degree or from a certain POV). They're just there for those who want their characters slightly less generic looking, and that's pretty much it, and on top if that it's a factor I feel could be done without going to such an obvious, unsubtle and over-the-top manner that also contradicts established lore and turns the entire thing into a farce.

I absolutely loathe the style-over-substance approach, and this is a classic in-your-face representation and example of that. To me the outfits from ME2 are merely one example of an overall shift in design and style to a less mature and more bombastic and "Modern Hollywood" approach, and it's an approach which I overall hate and despite and don't want to see in Mass Effect. Especially when they did such a good job building a great universe for the original game. It just seems like they're pissed all over it and wasted it all for the sake of poor aesthetic choice.

So, overall, I consider it very imporant personally. It's actually my #1 thing I want to see fixed in the third game, and that includes putting it higher up above all gameplay factors. Because if I can't take the game and universe seriously any more because it makes a complete farce of itself for this childish, mindless approach to things in such a casual manner, than I can't really enjoy anything else much either. So --in a way-- I'm just as much against the entire principle of it and what it represents and illustrates and what it does to Mass Effect as I am against the concept itself independently. It's one of many factors that says that ME2 was basically retooled for a younger, more mainstream audience and less for more hardcore sci-fi fans.

doesn't have to be stated in the codex if it's clearly shown onscreen, you just have to switch on the gristle between your ears and open your eyes to see it - it's self-evident, after all. for someone who actually seems pretty smart you sure like to be spoon-fed.

Except that everything that's currently in place basically says "no!" when it comes down to it. If you're going to have something that contradicts what you've currently got, then you need to find a way to explain why it is the exception to the rule or why it suddenly works. You can't just throw something out there with no explanation when it goes against everything else you've established and just expect people to swallow it because its there. It'd be the same as if ME3 ends up coming along and The Reapers really have just got to Earth in the snap of a finger and it's never stated why or how, which of course makes the whole plot of ME1 seemingly redundant if that's the case. Not only is it lazy writing and planning, but it's just stupid.

again the medi-gel could be dispense by other means.

Except, again, when the lore puts it across that it isn't, you can't. If you're going to state a rule for your universe, then you either have to follow it or you have to provide exceptions. As I said above, you can just throw it out there and have it contradicting what you've currently set without explanation. The whole point of setting rules and boundaries in any IP is to give it an identity and define it just as much as anything else, otherwise you'd end up with everything just being like South Park or Family Guy or something where there simply are no rules.

as for vaccuum exposure, well you're never actually in a true vaccum after the normandy gets destroyed - hazardous and perhaps alien and low-pressure environments yes, so you'd think clothes would be necessary, even if only for warmth. none of the other characters suffer from these problems, and the helmet issue is simply one of not having talking heads during vital sequences - artisitc license i can very well get behind, if at the expense of certain realism 9as, apparently, can everyone else).

As I've said before, the circumstances where you actually need helmets and also need to talk are few and far between as it is, and Shepard is always already helmeted during these moments anyway, and he/she does most of the talking. So what's the harm in just giving the same treatment to the others? Their faces are already half-covered during these moments as it is, so why not go all the way and do it right and to suit the situation. Hell, you could probably do it even better by giving them a helmet with a visor that exposes most of their face (at least visually) like the Cerberus and Inferno Armour do for Shepard. It clips on when in hazardous environments automatically, then off again when not. Simple, elegant and functional, without getting in the way when it doesn't need to. What's honestly the harm in this?

right, so using that (correct) definition - the VI targeting apparatus directs the power of the shield to block the incoming projectile, i see now difference to maintaining a similar, but lower-power universal shield to block particles, like toxins etc from getting near the wearer, it's just a matter of fine-tuning but it's exactly the same scientific principle. (and 'barrier' could work the same way).

No, because to protect to that level would not only require a hell of a lot of power, but also (as I stated) pretty much need you to create a completely (and I mean "completely!") perfect vaccuum. That's the only way you'll keep out heat and radiation and probably most toxins, and that will end up causing more harm than good, and then you'd also have to go to having your characters wearing a breather mask all the time simply so they could breathe at all, which ends up with us having them wearing stuff on their faces even more than they would have to as is.

most people don't go in most threads, or just those that interest them. i know i certainly avoid certain threads i know won't be interesting or will contain viewpoints i disagree with. the only reason i post here is to balance the preconception that may arise from the same small number of individuals spamming their one-note complaints constantly. as for the game changes the individual outfits for each character show a lot more attention to the character and who they are - more important in a story and character driven rpg - than generic power ranger armour which we got in me1, if that isn't a change for the better, i don't know what is. sure some of it may be (over-)sexualised but sci fi has always had that element to it (lest you forget), but it's not the focus unless you make it one: smara/miranda etc aren't defined by their cleavage, at least once you actually get past the intiial impression and talk to them.

Again, how much does it really change their personalities or look if you simply zip up/cover their upper chest and give them a proper helmet during those very rare moments where they should need it? Jack's the hardest to alter here without drastically altering her look, but even she could have something more akin to her loyalty alt appearance to a greater extent with either some tattoo-esque decals on it.

Modifié par Terror_K, 08 février 2011 - 11:44 .

[Jebel Krong]

Captain_Obvious_au wrote...

ZLurps wrote...

Piracy is not going away

True, but it's exactly this sort of rubbish micro DLC that encourages piracy.

no, that would be rip-offs like all the COD DLC that do that.

[ZLurps]

Captain_Obvious_au wrote...

ZLurps wrote...

Piracy is not going away

True, but it's exactly this sort of rubbish micro DLC that encourages piracy.

I do respect your point of view even though I disagree. I started playing computer games when the coolest thing out there was Commodore C64. I bought perhaps 20 - 30 games and compared to most who gamed on C64 that was a lot. We traded games on tapes, then on discs. We got older, got work, got money but still many kept on pirate copies. Over time I saw that people bought games where their needed CD key for online multiplayer. For single player games there was always an excuse and... I think there will always be excuse for piracy.

I don't say there aren't problems regarding DRM, I'm mainly miffed about things like SecuRom and StarForce and  I would love to see them disappear, but unfortunately to get that couple of weeks time for game to sell and bring money to developer and publisher I don't see what options game companies have left but to use them.
That said, my view about the subject may be very cynical.

Modifié par ZLurps, 08 février 2011 - 11:48 .

[Morducai]

ZLurps wrote...

Morducai wrote...

I don't know what more pathetic. Bioware actually making people pay for meaningless skins or that people actually pay for them. Weapons and arbitrary side mission I can understand but skins...To quote a one Gob Bluth "COME ON!"

Few years back I probably would have felt like you about this kind of DLC and people who buy it. But at these days I'm one of those people who are going to buy this DLC.
My reasons are many, I really like to have option for Miranda to wear bit more believable armour in combat and in general no way I'm feeling that purchasing something with about $2 from company that products have entertained me for hundreds of hours is sad or stupid.
Piracy is not going away, the world economy is still recovering from recession which means less consumer purchasing power. At the same time game development costs are still climbing. Games also share same market segment, say consumer entertainment budget, with DVD/Blu-Ray movies and series, music and so on.
So I get content for my about $2 and If anything from my DLC purchases gives more room for BioWare to design their future products, I'm happy. Then if in the future they decide to go with Call Of Duty XIV route, I don't need to buy it.

Your claim may hold true for game development but not for meaningless DLC such as this. you already paid for that DLC when you bought the game as adding a different skin is not something that should cost so much. I thought everyone learned a lesson from Micro dlc such as the infamous horse armor from Oblivion. I would much rather biWare spend their time on creating meaningful content that I'll be more then happy to buy then to get useless meaningless skins and free missions. 

[Gleym]

Actually, Jebel, I'd be more inclined to pirate Bioware's things these days than any other company's products on account of feeling very heavily shafted in regards to how they treat their customers and fans these days.

In terms of game developers whom I respect, the guys over at CD Projekt who made The Witcher and are working dutifully at making a game that adheres to the established lore of the setting out of respect for not only the source material, but fans of the soruce material, while not trying to wring every last penny out of their buyers are at the top of my list of people whom I'd never once consider pirating from. Which is ironic, seeing as the guys working on The Witcher 2 aren't going to have any sort of DRM unlike most money-grubbing companies nowadays.

Bioware, on the other hand? I'd rather screw them over than let them do it to me first.

Modifié par Gleym, 08 février 2011 - 11:50 .

[ZLurps]

Morducai wrote...

ZLurps wrote...

Morducai wrote...

I don't know what more pathetic. Bioware actually making people pay for meaningless skins or that people actually pay for them. Weapons and arbitrary side mission I can understand but skins...To quote a one Gob Bluth "COME ON!"

Few years back I probably would have felt like you about this kind of DLC and people who buy it. But at these days I'm one of those people who are going to buy this DLC.
My reasons are many, I really like to have option for Miranda to wear bit more believable armour in combat and in general no way I'm feeling that purchasing something with about $2 from company that products have entertained me for hundreds of hours is sad or stupid.
Piracy is not going away, the world economy is still recovering from recession which means less consumer purchasing power. At the same time game development costs are still climbing. Games also share same market segment, say consumer entertainment budget, with DVD/Blu-Ray movies and series, music and so on.
So I get content for my about $2 and If anything from my DLC purchases gives more room for BioWare to design their future products, I'm happy. Then if in the future they decide to go with Call Of Duty XIV route, I don't need to buy it.

Your claim may hold true for game development but not for meaningless DLC such as this. you already paid for that DLC when you bought the game as adding a different skin is not something that should cost so much. I thought everyone learned a lesson from Micro dlc such as the infamous horse armor from Oblivion. I would much rather biWare spend their time on creating meaningful content that I'll be more then happy to buy then to get useless meaningless skins and free missions. 

Well, it's not like anyone is forced to buy these things. Myself... I for one has supported idea to have more options for squad mate armours. Now that we get it is IMO nod from BioWare to fans who wanted this. I'm by no means wealthy but $2 is nothing for me. Besides among other things I'm curious how Miranda's armour work with character animation in game.
Can't say but that I agree to disagree.

[Joe Dono]

Alternate Appearance Pack 2 is out on xbox now



http://marketplace.x...cd-dfd49a9737a4

[ZLurps]

Gleym wrote...

Actually, Jebel, I'd be more inclined to pirate Bioware's things these days than any other company's products on account of feeling very heavily shafted in regards to how they treat their customers and fans these days.

In terms of game developers whom I respect, the guys over at CD Projekt who made The Witcher and are working dutifully at making a game that adheres to the established lore of the setting out of respect for not only the source material, but fans of the soruce material, while not trying to wring every last penny out of their buyers are at the top of my list of people whom I'd never once consider pirating from. Which is ironic, seeing as the guys working on The Witcher 2 aren't going to have any sort of DRM unlike most money-grubbing companies nowadays.

Bioware, on the other hand? I'd rather screw them over than let them do it to me first.

Witcher 2 is going to be very interesting case. If it sells well other game companies may reconsider paying license fees to developers of SecuRom etc. companies.
However, if it doesn't sell well how to get information if it didn't sold because lack of DRM and wide piracy or because it didn't met the expectations of fans?

[Gleym]

Oh, I'm fairly certain it'll meet the expectations of the fans. From the very start of production, they've had the artists and the programmers working side by side to make it so that the gameplay and the aesthetics line up. They referance the books and talk to the original author of the Witcher series in order to get the lore and the facts straight. Every single character they've added that isn't featured somehow in the books is carefully reviewed and designed to fit into the settings both in terms of how they dress, what nation they're from, and how they behave. By comparison, Bioware just comes off as lazy when they can't even stick to the lore they created themselves.

Modifié par Gleym, 08 février 2011 - 12:29 .

[Terror_K]

ZLurps wrote...

However, if it doesn't sell well how to get information if it didn't sold because lack of DRM and wide piracy or because it didn't met the expectations of fans?

Well, the first one sold very well, especially for a PC-only title in a time when consoles were dominant sales wise. And I do know that I can't get the super special Collector's edition anymore because pre-orders have already sold out their allocated stock a week ago. I was going to pre-order it for myself, but never expected it to go as fast as it did. So it seems pretty damn popular already.

[ZLurps]

Terror_K wrote...

ZLurps wrote...

However, if it doesn't sell well how to get information if it didn't sold because lack of DRM and wide piracy or because it didn't met the expectations of fans?

Well, the first one sold very well, especially for a PC-only title in a time when consoles were dominant sales wise. And I do know that I can't get the super special Collector's edition anymore because pre-orders have already sold out their allocated stock a week ago. I was going to pre-order it for myself, but never expected it to go as fast as it did. So it seems pretty damn popular already.

I did quick google search and it appears that Witcher 1 had a copy protection. If it sold out, it was successful despite copy protection. If Witcher 2 has very high production values and it's going to be released without DRM would it be logical to expect it sells even more than Witcher 1?
What is going to happen, that remains to be seen, but I hope the best for developers.

[Jebel Krong]

Gleym wrote...

Actually, Jebel, I'd be more inclined to pirate Bioware's things these days than any other company's products on account of feeling very heavily shafted in regards to how they treat their customers and fans these days.

In terms of game developers whom I respect, the guys over at CD Projekt who made The Witcher and are working dutifully at making a game that adheres to the established lore of the setting out of respect for not only the source material, but fans of the soruce material, while not trying to wring every last penny out of their buyers are at the top of my list of people whom I'd never once consider pirating from. Which is ironic, seeing as the guys working on The Witcher 2 aren't going to have any sort of DRM unlike most money-grubbing companies nowadays.

Bioware, on the other hand? I'd rather screw them over than let them do it to me first.

and how have BW screwed you over, personally, exactly? to make such a claim is, frankly, ridiculous; nothing justifies piracy. ever. and no, don't bother answering - you were the first person after bwjbea on my ignore list.

Modifié par Jebel Krong, 08 février 2011 - 12:53 .

[Terror_K]

ZLurps wrote...

Terror_K wrote...

ZLurps wrote...

However, if it doesn't sell well how to get information if it didn't sold because lack of DRM and wide piracy or because it didn't met the expectations of fans?

Well, the first one sold very well, especially for a PC-only title in a time when consoles were dominant sales wise. And I do know that I can't get the super special Collector's edition anymore because pre-orders have already sold out their allocated stock a week ago. I was going to pre-order it for myself, but never expected it to go as fast as it did. So it seems pretty damn popular already.

I did quick google search and it appears that Witcher 1 had a copy protection. If it sold out, it was successful despite copy protection. If Witcher 2 has very high production values and it's going to be released without DRM would it be logical to expect it sells even more than Witcher 1?
What is going to happen, that remains to be seen, but I hope the best for developers.

Actually, I should clarify there: the CE I was referring to was for the upcoming The Witcher 2, not the original, which has been out a while (I actually waited and got the improved Enhanced Edition in that case). So already The Witcher 2 is selling fairly well it seems.

[Gleym]

Jebel Krong wrote...

and how have BW screwed you over, personally, exactly? to make such a claim is, frankly, ridiculous; nothing justifies piracy. ever. and no, don't bother answering - you were the first person after bwjbea on my ignore list.

Don't worry, you were the first person I ever put on my ignore list too. But that's just because trying to reason with you is seemingly a pointless endeavor, as you so often like to remind me with your broad statements and lack of actual facts or reasoning outside of insisting that you are a majority even though you are constantly outnumbered.

[ZLurps]

Terror_K wrote...
Actually, I should clarify there: the CE I was referring to was for the upcoming The Witcher 2, not the original, which has been out a while (I actually waited and got the improved Enhanced Edition in that case). So already The Witcher 2 is selling fairly well it seems.

I see. I may try checking how well it has sold later. Thanks for the info!

[uzivatel]

Gleym wrote...

Actually, Jebel, I'd be more inclined to pirate Bioware's things these days than any other company's products on account of feeling very heavily shafted in regards to how they treat their customers and fans these days.

Sounds like serious case of butt-hurt, someone call the whambulance...

Gleym wrote...

In terms of game developers whom I respect, the guys over at CD Projekt who made The Witcher and are working dutifully at making a game that adheres to the established lore of the setting out of respect for not only the source material, but fans of the soruce material, while not trying to wring every last penny out of their buyers are at the top of my list of people whom I'd never once consider pirating from. Which is ironic, seeing as the guys working on The Witcher 2 aren't going to have any sort of DRM unlike most money-grubbing companies nowadays.

Estabilished lore? Source material? Did you know Sapkowski was not particularly happy about the first game?

The first game had some copy protection and the retail version of the second game is probably going to have some copy protection as well.
I think you are just afraid CD Projekt is going to sue you, if you pirate Witcher 2 

[didymos1120]

Jebel Krong wrote...

1. the novels aren't canon.

Except when they are.  Maybe you noticed both games reference events in the novels that preceded their respective releases.  Not to mention that the comics absolutely are canon. Just google up some of the promo stuff for them and note the use of a certain word on multiple occasions.

[didymos1120]

Jebel Krong wrote...

Godwood wrote...

So you're saying you have no source for this aside from what you deem common sense?

ok you're back on the 'ignore' list, too.

  You may as well have just written "I forfeit the argument."

Modifié par didymos1120, 08 février 2011 - 02:00 .

[Jebel Krong]

didymos1120 wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...

Godwood wrote...

So you're saying you have no source for this aside from what you deem common sense?

ok you're back on the 'ignore' list, too.

  You may as well have just written "I forfeit the argument."

not really - BWs own metrics have been posted here (and everywhere) before - i am not here to be 'daddy' to a load of crybabies who can't be bothered to look anything up or remember when they've posted in those very threads. ME2s sales (or close enough) are known. the breakdowns of people who have played what shepard, completed the game etc are also well-known. the number of complainers on this forum are also well-known (and generally can be counted on the fingers of one hand, depending on the specific topic being discussed). the math is therefore easy, even for the slower people (gleym, bwjbea, tonnactus - though i assume the latter finally got banned).

[Terror_K]

Autolycus wrote...

Terror,

On you're anology of 'always being prepared', then perhaps said journalists (as you quoted) should always be out in the field wearing wearing bomb protective armour too, you know, just in case?

Journalists aren't expected to deal with these dangerous situations if they come across them directly. Shepard is. Also, I do believe that quite often journalists will at least wear kevlar vests if in war-torn places.

As for your comment's regarding 'immersion' (people always use that lame excuse when they have no real substance to their arguments) and a 'believable science fiction universe', seriously, have you actually any idea how much of a hypocritical statement that is?

It's science fiction, ANYTHING can go, anything can be believable.  I suppose you do the same with films too eh?  It's a game, a damn good game at that, so just take it at face value and enjoy it.  If you analyse everything in your life with so much detail, one has to feel sorry for you.

It's science fiction, not complete fantasy. Generally sci-fi will set rules, laws and boundaries to ground it in a certain degree of reality and give it definition. And most sci-fi's will usually take into account the dangers of space because to most of them that adds to the danger and mystique of it. The main issue with ME2 is consistency: rules are set in the first game and the novels and even ME2 itself, and then directly contradicted by what's going on on-screen. If you set rules, laws, guidelines and boundaries for your universe you need to stick with them, and not just throw them out the window for the sake of style, especially such a mindless over-the-top one that ME2 seems to go for now and then.

If we're going to accept the squaddies running around like that despite it contradicting a dozen or so codex entries that are supposed to set the rules for the Mass Effect universe, then we may as well even do away with the breathing masks entirely and just having everybody breathing fine in any place or situation. We may as well pretend gravity is a constant everywhere, that a vaccuum is non-existent and that temperature, pressure, radiation and toxins are simply not a factor at all. Would it really be okay to you if Shepard's squad didn't even have breathing masks at all just because "it's science fiction?" How can we seriously take it seriously when it just throws simply logic and practicality away completely for the mere sake of making squaddies look like over-the-top comic book heroes? Quite frankly I find it pathetic, immature and childish and insulting to my intelligence as a fan, especially when they did such a good job of making sure it made sense in the original game.

Modifié par Terror_K, 09 février 2011 - 06:08 .

[KainrycKarr]

I like it, but really...what is *with* Bioware and putting visors and shades on people? It's either some kind of running joke, or someone very high up is a huge CSI fan.

[Iakus]

Terror_K wrote...

It's science fiction, not complete fantasy. Generally sci-fi will set rules, laws and boundaries to ground it in a certain degree of reality and give it definition. And most sci-fi's will usually take into account the dangers of space because to most of them that adds to the danger and mystique of it. The main issue with ME2 is consistency: rules are set in the first game and the novels and even ME2 itself, and then directly contradicted by what's going on on-screen. If you set rules, laws, guidelines and boundaries for your universe you need to stick with them, and not just throw them out the window for the sake of style, especially such a mindless over-the-top one that ME2 seems to go for now and then.

If we're going to accept the squaddies running around like that despite it contradicting a dozen or so codex entries that are supposed to set the rules for the Mass Effect universe, then we may as well even do away with the breathing masks entirely and just having everybody breathing fine in any place or situation. We may as well pretend gravity is a constant everywhere, that a vaccuum is non-existent and that temperature, pressure, radiation and toxins are simply not a factor at all. Would it really be okay to you if Shepard's squad didn't even have breathing masks at all just because "it's science fiction?" How can we seriously take it seriously when it just throws simply logic and practicality away completely for the mere sake of making squaddies look like over-the-top comic book heroes? Quite frankly I find it pathetic, immature and childish and insulting to my intelligence as a fan, especially when they did such a good job of making sure it made sense in the original game.

Just to add:

Even in stories of complete fantasy, the universe still operates on certain principles, even if they are ones that defy reality as we understand it.  For example:

Codex Alera:  Furies are weakened and disrupted by substances of their opposite element.

The Wheel of Time:  The One Power can Heal just about anything.  But cannot revive even the recently deceased.

Belgariad/Mallorean:  You cannot Will something out of existence

 Lord of the Rings:  Gandalf could not burn snow.

Same goes for science fiction.  Sure anything is possible.  But that's not the same as saying everything is possible.

A large part of what defines a world is what can and cannot be done in it.  If you play a game for it's plot, its world, its story, rather than for an adreneline rush, well, it's nice to have a bit of consistency in all that.

[aeetos21]

need more pictures