188 réponses à ce sujet

[upsettingshorts]

errant_knight wrote...

See, this is my worry. I don't like to use a tank. I find it unrealistic and a really bad way for a leader to treat a person under their command.

Because no commander has ever used a tactical decoy in the history of ever.

Or asked them to hold the line despite poor odds.  It ain't personal.  Unless it is.  I don't get why you'd make it so.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 05 février 2011 - 04:55 .

[errant_knight]

Harid wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Harid wrote...
Healers were already useless in DA:O in Nightmare, that's hardly anything  new.

That's not true. Or rather, it depends on your approach. A 3 mage party on nightmare could outheal damage and make you invincible. Heal was also crucial for the infinite "mana" bloodmage build.

If you needed to heal in a 3 mage party you were doing it wrong, and poultices did a better job at healing than cure spells did as a Blood Mage or well. . .anyone, anyway, especially in Nightmare, where IIRC Heal was nerfed anyway.

Um, that's just not true that healers were useless on nightmare. Maybe you preferred potions, and the strongest ones may have been more effective (not seeing it, though, as Wynne had no trouble healing my characters, even at high levels.), but healing worked fine. I rarely had to use potions unless Wynne was incapacitated for some reason. As for the blood mage thing, maybe so, but not everyone wants to be a blood mage, and if you can suck the life out of people around you, it makes sense that those powers would be stronger. That's a big part of the reason blood mages are feared and hated. So that's not broken, it's consistant with lore.

Modifié par errant_knight, 05 février 2011 - 04:55 .

[errant_knight]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

See, this is my worry. I don't like to use a tank. I find it unrealistic and a really bad way for a leader to treat a person under their command.

Because no commander has ever used a tactical decoy in the history of ever.

Or asked them to hold the line despite poor odds.  It ain't personal.  Unless it is.  I don't get why you'd make it so.

Uh, because I roleplay characters who find that repugnant. What, we all have to play everything the same way, now? I'm not saying you have to play that way, I'm saying I want the option to do so as I did in DA:O. I probably don't get your roleplay, either, or why you'd make this about mine instead of game mechanics.

[Harid]

In Exile wrote...

Harid wrote...
If you needed to heal in a 3 mage party you were doing it wrong, and poultices did a better job at healing than cure spells did as a Blood Mage or well. . .anyone, anyway, especially in Nightmare, where IIRC Heal was nerfed anyway.

There was no need to really use a consumable in any battle save those close to the endgame because group heal was good enough. Why waste any kind of healing item? 

What a 3 mage party did well AoE killers via fireball + direct damage. As for blood mages, a spirit healer/blood mage combo allows you to boost spellpower while casting out of health, using blood sacrifice to heal and group heal to restore your mana pool's health.

I don't know what you are going on about, but doing it wrong has to do with the taunt > force field > nuke nuke nuke nuke strategy that worked on well, everything, pretty much.   Insofar that curing was largely unneccesary, which is why I don't get how anyone could do the 3 mage thing in the first place, but I digress.

I would argue that a poultice using Blood Mage/Arcane Warrior was a better combination, especially given healing magic being nerfed while Blood magic was active, but gonna have to agree to disagree here, because we won't change either of each other's minds.

Why waste poultices?  Because the game throws them at you.  I think i had 300+ at end game without using any of them.

Modifié par Harid, 05 février 2011 - 04:59 .

[upsettingshorts]

errant_knight wrote...

Uh, because I roleplay characters who find that repugnant.

I roleplay characters that wouldn't want to serve under a weak leader who lacked the will to command.

errant_knight wrote..

I probably don't get your roleplay, either, or why you'd make this about mine instead of game mechanics.

Fair enough.   Nevermind then.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 05 février 2011 - 05:10 .

[errant_knight]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Uh, because I roleplay characters who find that repugnant.

I roleplay characters that wouldn't want to serve under a weak leader who lacked the will to command.

errant_knight wrote..

I probably don't get your roleplay, either, or why you'd make this about mine instead of game mechanics.

Fair enough.   Nevermind then.

Right. You just can't help yourself, can you? Have a pleasant evening.

[Dave of Canada]

errant_knight wrote...

Uh, because I roleplay characters who find that repugnant.

That's "cool" and all... so don't play Nightmare then?

I mean, a game built without using a tank is going to be rather pathetic when using one.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 05 février 2011 - 05:17 .

[Harid]

Dave of Canada wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Uh, because I roleplay characters who find that repugnant.

That's "cool" and all... so don't play Nightmare then?

I mean, a game built without using a tank is going to be rather pathetic when using one.

Didn't need a tank in DA:O, doubt you will need one in DA:2, Nightmare included.

[In Exile]

Harid wrote...
I don't know what you are going on about, but doing it wrong has to do with the taunt > force field > nuke nuke nuke nuke strategy that worked on well, everything, pretty much.

I don't use AI exploits.

Insofar that curing was largely unneccesary, which is why I don't get how anyone could do the 3 mage thing in the first place, but I digress.

I'm not sure I follow.

I would argue that a poultice using Blood Mage/Arcane Warrior was a better combination, especially given healing magic being nerfed while Blood magic was active, but gonna have to agree to disagree here, because we won't change either of each other's minds.

I think the direct damage from SH/BM is better because of the spellpower boost that you get; AW forces you to trade-off a lot of mage specific bonuses in spellpower for the extra armour.

But yes, agree to disagree.

Why waste poultices?  Because the game throws them at you.  I think i had 300+ at end game without using any of them.

On nightmare? I don't think I ever broke 50 total.

[Dave of Canada]

Harid wrote..

Didn't need a tank in DA:O, doubt you will need one in DA:2, Nightmare included.

The game was still built around having one, though. Though I suspect part of the problem why Origins was (still sort of) easy without a tank was because of how insanely strong mages were or how stupid the AI was at times.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 05 février 2011 - 05:26 .

[In Exile]

errant_knight wrote...
Uh, because I roleplay characters who find that repugnant.

Then why do you not want to be penalized for it? That is to say - there are lots of times where if you RP a character who finds something morally repugnant, there might be some penalty for the character later on. Why not treat this as one of those things?

[errant_knight]

Dave of Canada wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Uh, because I roleplay characters who find that repugnant.

That's "cool" and all... so don't play Nightmare then?

I mean, a game built without using a tank is going to be rather pathetic when using one.

*tilts head* Sure, I could play at an easier level...if they hadn't removed friendly fire from all levels but nightmare. That's why I am mildly concerned. We don't know that tank play is assumed,  or if that will make nightmare out of reach when not using it, but it seems like a valid concern, given that it wasn't the case previously, and our play style was wide open, giving us the option to play as we wished. Again, I'm not saying that we know this will be something that some creativity and clever tactics can't get around, just that I find it a tad worrying. And I don't know that I'd say 'pathetic.' Hard as hell, maybe, but I reserve pathetic for something far too easy than something challenging.

[errant_knight]

Dudes, really? Isn't there some other thing on the forum that requires your vigorous defense more urgently? I mean, unlike most complaints, I said we don't even know if it will turn out to be an issue, just that I was concerned that we would lose the versatility of style we had previously. Surely somewhere on the forum someone is actually slagging Bioware and your batsignals are going off.

That being said, In Exile, that's a good point, except that if the game becomes impossible, that pretty much rules out roleplay. Not saying it will, mind. I don't think we know that.

Modifié par errant_knight, 05 février 2011 - 05:34 .

[In Exile]

errant_knight wrote...

Dudes, really? Isn't there some other thing on the forum that requires your vigorous defense more urgently?

I'm not trying to defend it. I was honestly just asking you a question about your RP style. Personally, I find it more realistic that when I game an RP decision to have a character that by the game's standard is suboptimal, the game punishes me. I think that how the combat reacts to your build is part of RP. I was wondering if you felt that the combat and the character side of RP are independent.

Modifié par In Exile, 05 février 2011 - 05:34 .

[Harid]

In Exile wrote...
I think the direct damage from SH/BM is better because of the spellpower boost that you get; AW forces you to trade-off a lot of mage specific bonuses in spellpower for the extra armour.

But yes, agree to disagree.

What is this spellpower boost that you keep talking about?  Spirit Healer doesn't give any spell power boosts? Unless you are talking about the awesome +2 boost from the 2 magic the specialization gives you. . .2 spellpower is largely negligible unless you end up on some kinda line between boosts.

Modifié par Harid, 05 février 2011 - 05:35 .

[errant_knight]

In Exile wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Dudes, really? Isn't there some other thing on the forum that requires your vigorous defense more urgently?

...Are you talking to me?

I mean, unlike most complaints, I said we don't even know if it will turn out to be an issue, just that I was concerned that we would lose the versatility of style we had previously. Surely somewhere on the forum someone is actually slagging Bioware and your batsignals are going off.

That's absoluteuncalled for, if you're talking to me. Just what the hell are you talking about?

I was honestly just asking you a question about your RP style. Personally, I find it more realistic that when I game an RP decision to have a character that by the game's standard is suboptimal, the game punishes me. I think that how the combat reacts to your build is part of RP. I was wondering if you felt that the combat and the character side of RP are independent.

I wasn't talking to you. Sorry, I should have made that clear.

Modifié par errant_knight, 05 février 2011 - 05:36 .

[In Exile]

Harid wrote...
What is this spellpower boost that you keep talking about?  Spirit Healer doesn't give any spell power boosts? Unless you are talking about the awesome +1 boost from the 2 magic the specialization gives you. . .1 spellpower is largely negligible unless you end up on some kinda line between boosts.

When you use BM and a sustained ability, the sustained ability reduces your mana pool but not your health pool. Using spell wisp and spell might boosts your spellpower quite significantly at higher levels (something like +30 - I'd have to recheck to give you a specific #) without affecting your ability to cast spells.

[In Exile]

errant_knight wrote...
I wasn't talking to you.

I realized. Which is why I edited to a more cordial tone. I apologize for my outburst.  

ETA:

To address your point, I don't think the game will be impossible. Bioware said the same thing about nightmare the last time around, and while I certainly respect their intentions, I'm not sold on how DA2 will be harder.

Modifié par In Exile, 05 février 2011 - 05:38 .

[errant_knight]

In Exile wrote...

errant_knight wrote...
I wasn't talking to you.

I realized. Which is why I edited to a more cordial tone. I apologize for my outburst.  
ETA:

To address your point, I don't think the game will be impossible. Bioware said the same thing about nightmare the last time around, and while I certainly respect their intentions, I'm not sold on how DA2 will be harder.

Heh, not a problem. I was chagrined to realize that I'd been so uncautious and caused offense.
Don't get me wrong, I WANT nightmare to be harder than it was in DA:O. I just don't want to be chanelled into a particular style of roleplay. I like that being able to vary that. And you may well be right. Some people thought using a tank was necessary in DA:O, and that certainly wasn't the case. It may be the same here.

Modifié par errant_knight, 05 février 2011 - 05:42 .

[Harid]

In Exile wrote...

Harid wrote...
What is this spellpower boost that you keep talking about?  Spirit Healer doesn't give any spell power boosts? Unless you are talking about the awesome +1 boost from the 2 magic the specialization gives you. . .1 spellpower is largely negligible unless you end up on some kinda line between boosts.

When you use BM and a sustained ability, the sustained ability reduces your mana pool but not your health pool. Using spell wisp and spell might boosts your spellpower quite significantly at higher levels (something like +30 - I'd have to recheck to give you a specific #) without affecting your ability to cast spells.

This works with any use of Blood Magic, though.  It's not really a bonus to Spirit Healer.  It's a bonus to being a Blood mage.

[Dave of Canada]

errant_knight wrote...

Dudes, really? Isn't there some other thing on the forum that requires your vigorous defense more urgently? I mean, unlike most complaints, I said we don't even know if it will turn out to be an issue, just that I was concerned that we would lose the versatility of style we had previously. Surely somewhere on the forum someone is actually slagging Bioware and your batsignals are going off.

...

Yeah, no point in responding in anything you say if you're going to be unreasonable and just say "fanboys".

[mellifera]

God Dave, doesn't the BDF have a club meeting right now or something? Sheesh.

[errant_knight]

Well, seriously, what do you expect? The topic is the mechanics of nightmare and whether using a tank will be required, which was not the case previously, not justification for personal roleplay choices.

Modifié par errant_knight, 05 février 2011 - 05:49 .

[Dave of Canada]

You're the one who brought up roleplay, which should be separated from gameplay mechanics. If you want to roleplay with game mechanics, do so and leave it off the mechanics thread. Saying you don't use a tank because of roleplay, personally, makes as much sense to me as saying you don't like clothes so you fight naked and that you don't like people so you have no companions and the game should still be possible to beat on nightmare.



The trinity is a mechanic of itself, if you wish to ignore it then you'd have to choose between what mechanic you want the most; Friendly fire or tanking.



I don't see how anything is "fanboy"esque and it's pathetic that it's one of the first things you say when I come into this thread, if you don't want to be called out on being dismissive then don't do it.

[In Exile]

Harid wrote..
This works with any use of Blood Magic, though.  It's not really a bonus to Spirit Healer.  It's a bonus to being a Blood mage.

Right. What Group Heal does is let you feed off the 4th party member while keeping their health at max, essentially letting you get away with criminally low wis & con and just pumping mag.

errant_knight wrote...
Don't get me wrong, I WANT nightmare to
be harder than it was in DA:O. I just don't want to be chanelled into a
particular style of roleplay. I like that being able to vary that. And
you may well be right. Some people thought using a tank was necessary in
DA:O, and that certainly wasn't the case. It may be the same
here.

Realistically, it's hard for Bioware to anticipate just how players will play & exploit their game. If aggro mechanics work the same way as in DA:O, you'd quickly find tanks useless because you can outdamage their aggro drawing mechanics so fast they wouldn't mage it well.

It was just a better bet in DA2 to kill it fast with fire. And honestly, the vibe I get from Peter Thomas is that the huge advantage direct damage had in DA:O hasn't gone away at all in DA2.