363 réponses à ce sujet

[Juggernaught203]

Nashiktal wrote...

Where does blood magic originate from anyways? In game the only hints I got was that it comes from demons.

There are codexes on it, I believe. It was appearantly taught to the Archon Thalsian of the Tevinter Imperium by Dumat, an Old God worshipped by the Imperium, and also the first to become Archdemon.

Link to DA Wiki on the subject- http://dragonage.wik...iki/Blood_magic (read under Blood Magic in Thedas)

Modifié par Juggernaught203, 06 février 2011 - 06:37 .

[Face of Evil]

Juggernaught203 wrote...

Swords are generally used for killing other people as well. Nothing inherently good has ever came out of crafting weapons either. It can, however, be used for "good" or "evil". With "good" I mean the act of defending and with "evil" I mean the act of purposely inflicting damage on a personm animal or perhaps property.

For every individual who raised a sword to defend his family, there are probably a dozen men who raised one to maim and kill. I do not think that ordinary, physical weaponry or "normal" offensive magic is much better in regard to Blood Magic, seeing as how all of these lend themselves for "evil purposes" as well. 

The difference lies in its scale. One man with a sword cannot trap an entire village in the Fade, or create a werewolf curse that lasts centuries and spreads to hundreds of people. A small group of men with swords cannot sink a city into the earth, but the Magister Lords were able to bring down destruction on the city of Arlathan with blood magic.

And the fact is, a sword does not cut its owner every time it is unsheathed. A blade does not rip the life force out of its user with every swing.

[TeamLexana]

I don't care if the ability it's evil, every DA age run though I've ever had was a BM, hehehe. Blood Wound was just too epic and awesome to not use, esp since it has no FF.

Modifié par TeamLexana, 06 février 2011 - 06:56 .

[Eclipse_9990]

Nashiktal wrote...

Where does blood magic originate from anyways? In game the only hints I got was that it comes from demons.

Some people say Demons, some people say Dragons. 

[Cazlee]

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

Cazlee wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Cazlee wrote...

Using blood magic is inherently evil because the source of its power comes from harming or sacrificing people for their blood and life. I think there are only two examples of blood mages harming themselves instead of others in DAO. The warden is a unique case for obvious reasons, and Jowan acted out of desperation. Everything, else under normal circumstances, required human sacrifices, such as Isolde, Morrigan's baby (yup you killed the baby's soul), the elf slaves, wardens in WK, Golem slaves (this was a dwarf version of blood magic) etc.

Blood magic can be used to control minds, which is exceptionally dangerous. Ironically, using blood magic also makes the user susceptible to demon possession...

"Good" people can use blood magic, but blood magic in itself is still evil.

Is a blood transfusion inherently evil?  What about a kidney donation?  Both do exactly what you described as inherently evil about blood magic.

I disagree.

1. A good doctor/nurse will perform these procedures only after they ensure the risk to the donor is non-existant or minimal. The safety and well-being of the donor is important. Not so with blood magic. However, the blood mages we have encountered are always be able to justify wounding others and taking a lives.

2. The surgical procedures are only done with the donor's consent. Blood magic's "donors" are often unwilling or slaves.

3. Most importantly, organ/blood donation is done to save lives. Replacing bad/missing blood/organs is the only way we know of to "heal" people. Mages have many options to heal. Blood magic is actually a "selfish" magic because the caster can only heal himself, not others with it.

I stand by the proposition that a mage who uses his/her own blood, or that of a willing participant - as an example, Isolde volunteers to be the "victim" to power the spell to save Connor - is doing nothing wrong.

Bold 2: This is why the warden is the worst example to justify using blood magic... after combat  his party's health resets to 100%. With other mages, injuries are permanent, and no mage will be able to use his own blood forever.
The ritual itself does nothing to "save" Connor, not in the literal way that a heal spell can "save" an ally. It just allows access to kill a demon.

As for mind control, I contine to assert we have yet to see it, and as such, it may be nothing more than superstition, or Chantry propoganda.

Perhaps. That would be much too powerful and cause too much chaos if true.

1. Blood Mages usually use there own blood for the spells. The exceptions being Tevinters using slaves because they don't view slaves as people. But thats more of a cultural influence than blood magic. As for jowan using isold she gave her concent and the reason why it killed her was because it was an extremely powerful spell, I mean doing it without blood magic consists a ass load of lyrium, and a small crowed of mages. Hell this actually shows how much more efficiant blood magic is. 

2. Not necessarily true as I mentioned before some people can donate their blood to blood mages without killing themselves their called bleeders. 

3. Blood magic has a lot of abilities, it can "heal the sick", "restore failing crops", and "protect the innocent". Even if a blood mage uses someone else's or their own blood you do know they can use healing spells after, right? 

Bold 2:
As I said all mages can heal people so your point doesnt make any sense. Also "The ritual does nothing to save connor" really? REALLY? You can't be serious. The ritual allows you to go in the fade and deal with the demon without hurting the kid in anyway. How does that not save him? I suppose killing the boy would be a better option than using blood magic to you? Unbelievable...

Bolded: This is  false. Remember all the blood mages you fought? Did you notice the human explosions around them? What blood magic can heal the sick (outside the caster), restore failing crops or protect the innocent?
As for what I would have done in Redcliffe. I left Teagan and the knights in charge and went to the tower. They could kill Connor if it came to that before I returned. I didn't see blood magic as a good safe or reliable option. Jowan isn't even a real mage, he's just an apprentice.

Modifié par Cazlee, 06 février 2011 - 07:16 .

[Riona45]

Cazlee wrote...
Jowan isn't even a real mage, he's just an apprentice.

Of course, by that standard you could say that no non-Circle mage you ever met was a "real mage," because the Circle didn't declare that they were one.

[atheelogos]

Maria Caliban wrote...

NTsikuris wrote...

But couldn't someone of benevolent nature be a Blood Mage?

Certainly. There's nothing inherently bad about blood mage. The ability to control the mind of another might be problematic, but there are other perfectly benign things blood magic can do.

Well put my friend. Its not the magic that's the problem. Its how you use it.

[Cazlee]

Riona45 wrote...

Cazlee wrote...
Jowan isn't even a real mage, he's just an apprentice.

Of
course, by that standard you could say that no non-Circle mage you ever
met was a "real mage," because the Circle didn't declare that they were
one.

In terms of experience. He grew up in the circle and was not considered a "full" mage yet by his own background.

Modifié par Cazlee, 06 février 2011 - 07:18 .

[atheelogos]

TeamLexana wrote...

I don't care if the ability it's evil, every DA age run though I've ever had was a BM, hehehe. Blood Wound was just too epic and awesome to not use, esp since it has no FF.

I like the way you think

[Juggernaught203]

Face of Evil wrote...

The difference lies in its scale. One man with a sword cannot trap an entire village in the Fade, or create a werewolf curse that lasts centuries and spreads to hundreds of people. A small group of men with swords cannot sink a city into the earth, but the Magister Lords were able to bring down destruction on the city of Arlathan with blood magic.

And the fact is, a sword does not cut its owner every time it is unsheathed. A blade does not rip the life force out of its user with every swing.

You have a very good point there. Unless the warrior has to inflict pain upon him/herself in order to enter a berserkergang (beside the point, I know).

So the temptation to use Blood Magic would be greater in the sense that it's easier to use in ways to display one's might, since it's able to do things you couldn't do by conventional means, even with regulair magic.
I can agree with this, and definitly got me thinking.

But to a Warrior, who has a sword, armor and the experience to skillfully wield it, finding a magical blade with vampiric properties that drains the wielder's lifeforce away a little each time he swings it, and can only replenish the loss of health by killing, but in return it grants him massive boons to strength, endurance etc., would equate to what Blood Magic is to the Mage who already has power over "casual" magic. (weapons like this are not unheard of in a fantasy setting after all)

I understand that you are talking magnitude, however you could argue that the greater the power, the greater the price one must be willing to pay in order to use it. Would I be a tiny bit more concerned if some wacko cut his own wrist to cast a spell, rather then see him quaff a vial of lyrium? You bet. But the question would still be; *will* this person actually use it to harm others? It's potentially more dangerous, but definitly not, because it is more powerful, also "evil". The allure would, as you said, simply be greater, it's still not a given. Which would, to me, simply come down to the person not being strong enough to resist the temptation.

I'm assuming that not everyone who is "evil" will risk paying this price, and that some who are "good" will gladly pay this price in order to defend others if there are no other objections (such as religious ones). If one gladly pays a price in order to have this kind of power, would you say it's "evil" or "good" per se? I still wouldn't. Because others have slain innocent people with a freaky sentient vampiric blade, doesn't mean the current wielder will. He/she could still decide to feed the blade with the blood of criminals and other scum.

That's why I would refuse to label Blood Magic as something "forbidden" or "too dangerous to use", as long as it is in the right hands, If it would take Blood Magic to whipe out the darkspawn, I think there would be quite a few Wardens who'd pull out their knives with a happy smile. 

Modifié par Juggernaught203, 06 février 2011 - 07:24 .

[Cazlee]

Juggernaught203 wrote...
That's why I would refuse to label Blood Magic as something "forbidden" or "too dangerous to use", as long as it is in the right hands, If it would take Blood Magic to whipe out the darkspawn, I think there would be quite a few Wardens who'd pull out their knives with a happy smile. 

Considering that the warden ritual in itself is blood magic...
(That eventually turns them all into monsters)

[Eclipse_9990]

Cazlee wrote...

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

Cazlee wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Cazlee wrote...

Using blood magic is inherently evil because the source of its power comes from harming or sacrificing people for their blood and life. I think there are only two examples of blood mages harming themselves instead of others in DAO. The warden is a unique case for obvious reasons, and Jowan acted out of desperation. Everything, else under normal circumstances, required human sacrifices, such as Isolde, Morrigan's baby (yup you killed the baby's soul), the elf slaves, wardens in WK, Golem slaves (this was a dwarf version of blood magic) etc.

Blood magic can be used to control minds, which is exceptionally dangerous. Ironically, using blood magic also makes the user susceptible to demon possession...

"Good" people can use blood magic, but blood magic in itself is still evil.

Is a blood transfusion inherently evil?  What about a kidney donation?  Both do exactly what you described as inherently evil about blood magic.

I disagree.

1. A good doctor/nurse will perform these procedures only after they ensure the risk to the donor is non-existant or minimal. The safety and well-being of the donor is important. Not so with blood magic. However, the blood mages we have encountered are always be able to justify wounding others and taking a lives.

2. The surgical procedures are only done with the donor's consent. Blood magic's "donors" are often unwilling or slaves.

3. Most importantly, organ/blood donation is done to save lives. Replacing bad/missing blood/organs is the only way we know of to "heal" people. Mages have many options to heal. Blood magic is actually a "selfish" magic because the caster can only heal himself, not others with it.

I stand by the proposition that a mage who uses his/her own blood, or that of a willing participant - as an example, Isolde volunteers to be the "victim" to power the spell to save Connor - is doing nothing wrong.

Bold 2: This is why the warden is the worst example to justify using blood magic... after combat  his party's health resets to 100%. With other mages, injuries are permanent, and no mage will be able to use his own blood forever.
The ritual itself does nothing to "save" Connor, not in the literal way that a heal spell can "save" an ally. It just allows access to kill a demon.

As for mind control, I contine to assert we have yet to see it, and as such, it may be nothing more than superstition, or Chantry propoganda.

Perhaps. That would be much too powerful and cause too much chaos if true.

1. Blood Mages usually use there own blood for the spells. The exceptions being Tevinters using slaves because they don't view slaves as people. But thats more of a cultural influence than blood magic. As for jowan using isold she gave her concent and the reason why it killed her was because it was an extremely powerful spell, I mean doing it without blood magic consists a ass load of lyrium, and a small crowed of mages. Hell this actually shows how much more efficiant blood magic is. 

2. Not necessarily true as I mentioned before some people can donate their blood to blood mages without killing themselves their called bleeders. 

3. Blood magic has a lot of abilities, it can "heal the sick", "restore failing crops", and "protect the innocent". Even if a blood mage uses someone else's or their own blood you do know they can use healing spells after, right? 

Bold 2:
As I said all mages can heal people so your point doesnt make any sense. Also "The ritual does nothing to save connor" really? REALLY? You can't be serious. The ritual allows you to go in the fade and deal with the demon without hurting the kid in anyway. How does that not save him? I suppose killing the boy would be a better option than using blood magic to you? Unbelievable...

Bolded: This is  false. Remember all the blood mages you fought? Did you notice the human explosions around them? What blood magic can heal the sick (outside the caster), restore failing crops or protect the innocent?
As for what I would have done in Redcliffe. I left Teagan and the knights in charge and went to the tower. They could kill Connor if it came to that before I returned. I didn't see blood magic as a good safe or reliable option. Jowan isn't even a real mage, he's just an apprentice.

No it isnt false. In the blood mage mission in denerim you fought blood mages all the time, they didnt take anyones health. Hell even the boss was a blood mage. In the circle tower you fought a blood mage who was controlling a group of templars before you fought the sloth demon. When she used blood magic she used her own hp. The blood magic healing the sick and crops thing is actually from the Dragon Age comic not the game, I was just using that as a example outside of gameplay.

Also human explosions? There were no humans exploding in the game unless you used Virulent walking bomb(which isnt a blood mage spell). 

Also "They could kill connor if it came to that before I returned" So... You took the risk of letting them kill a innocent kid, instead of killing the mother(who's fault it was in the first place), and dealing with the demon immediatly. Frankly I hate that when you leave to get the circle help nothing happens when you come back. Its so stupid, considering your traveling on foot for atleast a couple of days from redcliff to the circle tower. 

Modifié par Eclipse_9990, 06 février 2011 - 07:42 .

[Juggernaught203]

Cazlee wrote...

Considering that the warden ritual in itself is blood magic...
(That eventually turns them all into monsters)

Damn I love this thread

I've never thought of it as genuine Blood Magic to be honest. Maybe you could direct me to a source?
I know it requires lyrium, and Archdemon and Darkspawn blood, but does that immediatly make it Blood Magic?
Always considered it as a type of vaccin, a potentially fatal one, but you get my point, I think. Take a small dose of the poison/germ/etc., in order to become resistant to it.

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

No it isnt false. In the blood mage mission in denerim you fought blood mages all the time, they didnt take anyones health.

You didn't see the blood-smeared altars and all the bodies lying next to it and all across the floor, mate?
I just did that part, and it's quite obvious that they did use blood of other people.

Modifié par Juggernaught203, 06 février 2011 - 07:43 .

[Eclipse_9990]

[quote]Juggernaught203 wrote...

[quote]Cazlee wrote...

Considering that the warden ritual in itself is blood magic...
(That eventually turns them all into monsters)
[/quote]

Damn I love this thread

I've never thought of it as genuine Blood Magic to be honest. Maybe you could direct me to a source?
I know it requires lyrium, and Archdemon and Darkspawn blood, but does that immediatly make it Blood Magic?
Always considered it as a type of vaccin, a potentially fatal one, but you get my point, I think. Take a small dose of the poison/germ/etc., in order to become resistant to it.


[/quote]

Well Tevinter Mages were one of the first Grey Wardens. Plus it well.. Involves blood that pretty much makes it blood magic. Just like Phylacteries are blood magic. 

No it isnt false. In the blood mage mission in denerim you fought blood mages all the time, they didnt take anyones health. [/quote]

[quote]Juggernaught203 wrote... You didn't see the blood-smeared altars and all the bodies lying next to it and all across the floor, mate?
I just did that part, and it's quite obvious that they did use blood of other people.[/quote]

Lol well yeah they did before I came there. But last time I played I didnt see any live victims they can use. Its not like blood mages can use blood thats just around. It kind of has to come from a already living person. The caster or the "victim" 

Modifié par Eclipse_9990, 06 février 2011 - 07:46 .

[TeamLexana]

atheelogos wrote...

TeamLexana wrote...

I don't care if the ability it's evil, every DA age run though I've ever had was a BM, hehehe. Blood Wound was just too epic and awesome to not use, esp since it has no FF.

I like the way you think

Thanks, hehe.

[Juggernaught203]

Eclipse_9990 wrote...


Lol well yeah they did before I came there. But last time I played I didnt see any live victims they can use. Its not like blood mages can use blood thats just around. It kind of has to come from a already living person. The caster or the "victim" 

No, true. But this Boss guy who kidnapped the Elves in the Alienage offers you to do exactly that in order to increase your health, so you will spare him. The quest where you search for proof against Loghain before the Landsmeet.

EDIT: the quest is called Unrest in the Alienage and the NPC is called Caladrius.

Modifié par Juggernaught203, 06 février 2011 - 07:52 .

[luckyirish.dowd]

A few things that people should keep in mind when trying to make claims on blood magic by what you've experienced in the game is that, do to mechanics and the inherent limitations involved in a game and its story, we don't ever get to see all of the possibilities. So we never get to see or hear about some other kingdom were blood magic might be used to promote fertility and health in pregnent women, or bounty in crops, or enhanced healing in those that are terribly ill. Things of that nature that could all be attributed to healing purposes and goodwill. I've said it before and I'll say it again: everything comes down to both MEANS and METHOD.



If you live in a civilization were blood magic is used quite often and for all of the right purposes, were many rituals are performed willingly by those participating to help out others, than you would have an entirely different view of blood magic. You'd see it as a positive force. And, since more people openly practice it, it wouldn't be feared so much because mages would know how to defend against it. The fact that there's seems to be only one item in the entire game that counteracts it seems to indicate that since it's so forbidden and blood mages are killed on sight, no one can even get the chance to practice at defending against it.



We only ever get to see one view of blood magic because the world in DA is very limited. Maybe with DA2 we'll see more possibilities. But the point still remains that blood magic is nothing more than a tool that one can choose to use, for whatever purpose.

[Eclipse_9990]

Juggernaught203 wrote...

Eclipse_9990 wrote...


Lol well yeah they did before I came there. But last time I played I didnt see any live victims they can use. Its not like blood mages can use blood thats just around. It kind of has to come from a already living person. The caster or the "victim" 

No, true. But this Boss guy who kidnapped the Elves in the Alienage offers you to do exactly that in order to increase your health, so you will spare him. The quest where you search for proof against Loghain before the Landsmeet.

EDIT: the quest is called Unrest in the Alienage and the NPC is called Caladrius.

Well yeah I know the boss does it. He does use the elves health to use blood magic spells or heal himself. But my point was to disprove what she says about most blood mages doing it. Though I don't doubt that powerful Tevinter sorcerers do it. 

[luckyirish.dowd]

Here's another thought for all of those who say that because something is or could be used as a weapon it should be feared and stopped: what about a pen?



Isn't it said that, "the pen is mightier than the sword."? Think about how many millions of people swords and guns and bombs have killed over the years. A lot, I know. Now think of what cause all of those swords and guns and bombs to be used. One man's edict, written for all to follow can destroy the world. Hitler decreed that Jews, invalids, and homosexuals should all be killed to "cleanse" the world. With one stroke of a pen he set in motion millions of bullets, thousands of tons of poisonous gas, and countless other forms of destruction. One man, one stroke, 6 million deaths. Stalin, likewise, was arguably even worse, killing 10 million of his own people. Someone posted that nuclear bombs were a horrible evil. Screw nuclear bombs. Worst case senario that can literally destroy the entire world... once. I fear the man you signs laws into effect because he can destroy the entire world EVERY GENERATION! So if you want to talk abou the degree of destruction that a tool or weapon can cause then you might want to think about the symbolic effects of them as well, because those ALWAYS outreach the physical effects that they can cause.



The point that I'm making is that a weapon is just a tool. By definition, it's a tool to cause harm, yes, but just a tool none the less. Having one doesn't mean that you'll use it, and using it doesn't necessarily mean that it was the wrong thing to do. Conversely, and tool can be used as a weapon. A pen can be used for something so mundane as stabing someone or it can be used to decree a death sentence of innocent people. If a tool can become a weapon, and a weapon can become a tool, then should we simply outlaw EVERY tool, EVERY weapon? People need to stop looking at just the ends or just the means and look at the whole picture of why any tool/weapon is used.

[Collider]

A policy against blood mage could prevent so many deaths, no?

There are many alternatives to protecting oneself than something that could easily backfire, such as blood magic.

[Juggernaught203]

luckyirish.dowd wrote...

If you live in a civilization were blood magic is used quite often and for all of the right purposes, were many rituals are performed willingly by those participating to help out others, than you would have an entirely different view of blood magic. You'd see it as a positive force. And, since more people openly practice it, it wouldn't be feared so much because mages would know how to defend against it. The fact that there's seems to be only one item in the entire game that counteracts it seems to indicate that since it's so forbidden and blood mages are killed on sight, no one can even get the chance to practice at defending against it.

The Aztecs,  human sacrifice and automutilation immediatly come to mind when I read this. They (Aztecs) believed that blood was fuel for the Gods, to keep the world from ending, and they (appearantly) gladly cut themselves, and even let themselves be sacrificed. They saw this as the very least they could do in repayment for the Gods who sacrificed themselves for the human race. These days, the very idea would fill many with repulsion, because the thought of cutting yourself seems unnatural to people (I do not disagree, but no matter).

Culture would indeed play a huge role in stigmatizing or promoting Blood Magic (as it does with many other things). Not to mention that Tevinter's view of the Chantry doctrines are different on several other crucial points, such as male priesthood, and the Imperial Chantry being led by the so-called "Black Divine".
I suppose this would boil down to a discussion whether the Chantry is right in forbidding Blood Magic like it does, and why the two Chantries have such different opinions about Blood Magic.

I mean, we know what the Andrastrians teach, how Blood Magic tainted the Golden City, but is that truly what happened, or is it a tool to control the masses, to the point of not allowing citizens to study anatomy out of a paranoid fear for people getting into Blood Magic?

[Falls Edge]

I think this needs to be noted but infact a lot of aztecs did not appreciate being thrown into volcanoes.

Modifié par Falls Edge, 06 février 2011 - 08:20 .

[luckyirish.dowd]

Juggernaught203 wrote...

Culture would indeed play a huge role in stigmatizing or promoting Blood Magic (as it does with many other things). Not to mention that Tevinter's view of the Chantry doctrines are different on several other crucial points, such as male priesthood, and the Imperial Chantry being led by the so-called "Black Divine".
I suppose this would boil down to a discussion whether the Chantry is right in forbidding Blood Magic like it does, and why the two Chantries have such different opinions about Blood Magic.

I mean, we know what the Andrastrians teach, how Blood Magic tainted the Golden City, but is that truly what happened, or is it a tool to control the masses, to the point of not allowing citizens to study anatomy out of a paranoid fear for people getting into Blood Magic?

Exactly my point.  The CULTURE plays a huge role on how things are seen.  If it had a proven positive effect on the culture of those using it (i.e. causing temporary pain with a small cut to yourself in order to promote a healthy delivery of a baby), then of course most poeple would see it as good and useful and any cases were it was used to harm people as a rare exception.  Of course, in another civilization, the reverse could hold true.  Blood magic is just a tool.  It's up to the people that wield it to determine HOW IT IS USED.  That tells you whether, in that instance, it was good or bad.

[luckyirish.dowd]

Falls Edge wrote...

I think this needs to be noted but infact a lot of aztecs did not appreciate being thrown into volcanoes.

ROFL!!!  Excellent point.  The **** were fine with the idea.  The virgins... not so much.

[Eclipse_9990]

Falls Edge wrote...

I think this needs to be noted but infact a lot of aztecs did not appreciate being thrown into volcanoes.

Well I think the main difference in this is that Blood Magic is real(In Dragon Age world), and the stuff the aztecs do wasn't. That and you don't necessarily have to kill someone when you use blood magic. I'd take losing some blood, and getting healed right after, over getting thrown into a volcano.