363 réponses à ce sujet

[Cazlee]

Eclipse_9990 wrote...
Well yeah I know the boss does it. He does use the elves health to use blood magic spells or heal himself. But my point was to disprove what she says about most blood mages doing it. Though I don't doubt that powerful Tevinter sorcerers do it.

Tevinter Magisters sacrificed slaves, Avernus tortured and sacrificed Grey Wardens, Caladrius sacrificed elf slaves and his guards (for life - they explode), Zathrian cursed the humans, and wants to sacrifice the spirit of the forest though can end up sacrificing himself too, the baroness is posessed by a demon, uldred posessed by a demon and has no trouble killing. That's most of the blood mages we meet in the game.  Also when I fought random blood mages, I noticed that their allies would explode due to the blood magic heal... and some had blood altars. 

Modifié par Cazlee, 06 février 2011 - 08:41 .

[AlexXIV]

Blood magic is powerful, harmful, most people use it for evil. We got it. It was said hundret times in this thread and hardly anyone denies that in case you didn't notice. Still not inherently evil. A weapon isn't evil, only the user can use it for evil things. If bloodmagic would actually urge the user to do evil or corrupt them in any way like the dark side of the force in star wars or something it would be different. And it's not about magnitude. Killing one innocent is maybe less evil than killing one thousand, but both is evil to begin with.Unless you are of the opinion that all sort of power is inherently evil and thus the world is led by evil men, you can't honestly argue that bloodmagic is evil in itself. At least not with what we know about it, it might be that Bioware makes it more evil in future installments.

The thing with bloodmagic is that you can do things that other magic can't. For the better or worse. Which makes it more likely that people abuse it. Because people are weak. Also for the same reason people here declare bloodmagic evil they could as well say the same about other schools of magic aside from spirit healer and creation because they all are mostly used to violate people or creatures.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 06 février 2011 - 09:36 .

[Nilbog79]

I can't see anything inherently diferent about blood magic compared to other schools of magic, yes it's destructive but so is a fireball. There are many other spells in DA that screw with other people's minds, Waking Nightmare in particular has very similar effects to mind control.

The real reason for the forbidden status of blood magic is the connection to the demons. A mage in DA universe already carries a considerable risk of demonic posession, blood magic increases it significantly (temptation to learn from the masters of blood magic will in many cases prove too great). Coupled with mind-control ability you can have a situation where a posessed blood mage can mind-control others and make them turn into abominations also, and before long you have a whole horde of them running around causing havoc (which is precisely what happened in the Broken Circle quest). Mages are already barely tolerated by the chantry but with the increased risk that blood magic carries the Chantry decided to ban and demonise it entirely, which is at least understandable.

[Eclipse_9990]

Cazlee wrote...

Eclipse_9990 wrote...
Well yeah I know the boss does it. He does use the elves health to use blood magic spells or heal himself. But my point was to disprove what she says about most blood mages doing it. Though I don't doubt that powerful Tevinter sorcerers do it.

Tevinter Magisters sacrificed slaves, Avernus tortured and sacrificed Grey Wardens, Caladrius sacrificed elf slaves and his guards (for life - they explode), Zathrian cursed the humans, and wants to sacrifice the spirit of the forest though can end up sacrificing himself too, the baroness is posessed by a demon, uldred posessed by a demon and has no trouble killing. That's most of the blood mages we meet in the game.  Also when I fought random blood mages, I noticed that their allies would explode due to the blood magic heal... and some had blood altars. 

Avernus has been discussed for a while now. Avernus tortured and sacrificed Grey Wardens for a good cause, a worthy cause in my opinion. The humans that Zathrian cursed deserved what they got, he was only guilty of not ending the spell when his people were in trouble. Also.. Enemy Blood Mage allies explode?

I've played Origins over, and over, and over. To the point that I'd rather kill myself than play it again.
The only time enemies will explode is if you cast walking bomb/virulent walking bomb on them. I really don't know what your talking about here, do you have a picture of reference of this? 

Its like calling a kitchen knife evil. You can kill someone with it, but thats not its main purpose. 

Modifié par Eclipse_9990, 06 février 2011 - 11:16 .

[Augoeides]

My question has always been as to why we scrutinize mages so much, especially if we consider the human noble origin (amongst many other things) any indication of what 'normal' people are capable of. The way Loghain had Ser Cauthrien (is that her name?) wrapped around his finger in a web of lies, honor and fealty trumped any form of blood magic mind control.

Modifié par Augoeides, 06 février 2011 - 11:23 .

[Herr Uhl]

Augoeides wrote...

My question has always been as to why we scrutinize mages so much, especially if we consider the human noble origin (amongst many other things) any indication of what 'normal' people are capable of. The way Loghain had Ser Cauthrien (is that her name?) wrapped around his finger in a web of lies, honor and fealty trumped any form of blood magic mind control.

Really? What lies?

[Augoeides]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Augoeides wrote...

My question has always been as to why we scrutinize mages so much, especially if we consider the human noble origin (amongst many other things) any indication of what 'normal' people are capable of. The way Loghain had Ser Cauthrien (is that her name?) wrapped around his finger in a web of lies, honor and fealty trumped any form of blood magic mind control.

Really? What lies?

That the Grey Wardens were the ones that abandoned Cailan thus leading to his death, I'm pretty sure that was what she believed and that was a lie as far as I know.

[Morroian]

Please can we not have another Loghain debate.

[Herr Uhl]

Augoeides wrote...

That the Grey Wardens were the ones that abandoned Cailan thus leading to his death, I'm pretty sure that was what she believed and that was a lie as far as I know.

She was there when the order was given, it isn't like she had any wool pulled over her eyes. She was his sexond in command though, and had a hard time questioning his commands. In any case, she chose to do what she did of her own free will.

[Cazlee]

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

Cazlee wrote...

Eclipse_9990 wrote...
Well yeah I know the boss does it. He does use the elves health to use blood magic spells or heal himself. But my point was to disprove what she says about most blood mages doing it. Though I don't doubt that powerful Tevinter sorcerers do it.

Tevinter Magisters sacrificed slaves, Avernus tortured and sacrificed Grey Wardens, Caladrius sacrificed elf slaves and his guards (for life - they explode), Zathrian cursed the humans, and wants to sacrifice the spirit of the forest though can end up sacrificing himself too, the baroness is posessed by a demon, uldred posessed by a demon and has no trouble killing. That's most of the blood mages we meet in the game.  Also when I fought random blood mages, I noticed that their allies would explode due to the blood magic heal... and some had blood altars. 

Avernus has been discussed for a while now. Avernus tortured and sacrificed Grey Wardens for a good cause, a worthy cause in my opinion. The humans that Zathrian cursed deserved what they got, he was only guilty of not ending the spell when his people were in trouble. Also.. Enemy Blood Mage allies explode?

I've played Origins over, and over, and over. To the point that I'd rather kill myself than play it again.
The only time enemies will explode is if you cast walking bomb/virulent walking bomb on them. I really don't know what your talking about here, do you have a picture of reference of this? 

Its like calling a kitchen knife evil. You can kill someone with it, but thats not its main purpose. 

This collection of blood mages  was evidence enough for me that discovering one that harms only himself is rare. I'd like to know why you think "most blood mages use their own blood"? 

With regard to the blood explosions, the first time I noticed it was in the Alienage.  I was trying to save the "innocent" elves that sided with the Tevinter guards, by killing the guards asap. Then all around elves started exploding. I was in an all melee party, and reloaded several times before realizing that they were dying to blood magic.  I started noticing the explosions when fighting blood mages after that.

Modifié par Cazlee, 06 février 2011 - 11:59 .

[Augoeides]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Augoeides wrote...

That the Grey Wardens were the ones that abandoned Cailan thus leading to his death, I'm pretty sure that was what she believed and that was a lie as far as I know.

She was there when the order was given, it isn't like she had any wool pulled over her eyes. She was his sexond in command though, and had a hard time questioning his commands. In any case, she chose to do what she did of her own free will.

Exactly! Her loyalty to Loghain was so strong that of her own free will she chose to follow him despite his actions. He inspired or intimidated a loyalty into her that was tantamount to brainwashing her to ignore her better reasoning. That is just as much mind control was the blood magic spell, except in some ways, worse. Rather than acting against her will to do certain things, she was doing those things of her own free will because she believed them to be the truth. Ser Landry was involved in similar circumstances but he saw reason in a much easier fashion.

So I ask again, why are mages scrutinized for their abilities to manipulate magically when others can do the same just as easily without magic?

Failure to control someone is pretty obvious too, considering they turn into a blubbering heap. (Irving in Broken Circle)

[Eclipse_9990]

Cazlee wrote...

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

Cazlee wrote...

Eclipse_9990 wrote...
Well yeah I know the boss does it. He does use the elves health to use blood magic spells or heal himself. But my point was to disprove what she says about most blood mages doing it. Though I don't doubt that powerful Tevinter sorcerers do it.

Tevinter Magisters sacrificed slaves, Avernus tortured and sacrificed Grey Wardens, Caladrius sacrificed elf slaves and his guards (for life - they explode), Zathrian cursed the humans, and wants to sacrifice the spirit of the forest though can end up sacrificing himself too, the baroness is posessed by a demon, uldred posessed by a demon and has no trouble killing. That's most of the blood mages we meet in the game.  Also when I fought random blood mages, I noticed that their allies would explode due to the blood magic heal... and some had blood altars. 

Avernus has been discussed for a while now. Avernus tortured and sacrificed Grey Wardens for a good cause, a worthy cause in my opinion. The humans that Zathrian cursed deserved what they got, he was only guilty of not ending the spell when his people were in trouble. Also.. Enemy Blood Mage allies explode?

I've played Origins over, and over, and over. To the point that I'd rather kill myself than play it again.
The only time enemies will explode is if you cast walking bomb/virulent walking bomb on them. I really don't know what your talking about here, do you have a picture of reference of this? 

Its like calling a kitchen knife evil. You can kill someone with it, but thats not its main purpose. 

This collection of blood mages  was evidence enough for me that discovering one that harms only himself is rare. I'd like to know why you think "most blood mages use their own blood"? 

With regard to the blood explosions, the first time I noticed it was in the Alienage.  I was trying to save the "innocent" elves that sided with the Tevinter guards, by killing the guards asap. Then all around elves started exploding. I was in an all melee party, and reloaded several times before realizing that they were dying to blood magic.  I started noticing the explosions when fighting blood mages after that.

Bold 1: Why would most mages use their own blood? Because its always there. Its always on hand when you need it. All they have to do is cut them self a little it doesnt have to be like huge gallons of blood all over the place. Look at the destiny trailer. Hawke is a blood mage, and all he did was cut a little design into his arm, and then bam blood magic. Plus they can heal themselves with mana afterwards. Whats the big deal? 

Bold 2: Really? Wow. I have never seen that.. At all. Um.. Do you have a  mage in your party that knows walking bomb? Because I've never seen that ever. When ever I killed the guards, the elves that sided with them just attacked me.. Thats it.. 

Modifié par Eclipse_9990, 06 février 2011 - 12:25 .

[Cazlee]

Augoeides wrote...
Exactly! Her loyalty to Loghain was so strong that of her own free will she chose to follow him despite his actions. He inspired or intimidated a loyalty into her that was tantamount to brainwashing her to ignore her better reasoning. That is just as much mind control was the blood magic spell, except in some ways, worse. Rather than acting against her will to do certain things, she was doing those things of her own free will because she believed them to be the truth. Ser Landry was involved in similar circumstances but he saw reason in a much easier fashion.

She had a choice. That's the difference.  And it wasn't a simple black or white decision. Loghain judged that the battle was lost, and as such believed he was doing the best thing for his army by retreating.

So I ask again, why are mages scrutinized for their abilities to manipulate magically when others can do the same just as easily without magic?

Like the chantry? They are very much scrutinized, at least on this forum.

[Seagloom]

Augoeides wrote...

So I ask again, why are mages scrutinized for their abilities to manipulate magically when others can do the same just as easily without magic?

Brainwashing takes time and effort. Working a crowd of rubes takes communication skills and manuvering to avoid being exposed. A blood mage can attain control over an individual that utterly overrides their self control with the wave of a hand. There is a difference between carefully manipulating people, brainwashing, or something like Stockholm syndrome and bypassing anyone's natural inclinations to make them do what you want.

If blood control was better than non-magical methods, no one would use it. Why bother when it brings about more trouble than its worth?

[Eclipse_9990]

Seagloom wrote...

Augoeides wrote...

So I ask again, why are mages scrutinized for their abilities to manipulate magically when others can do the same just as easily without magic?

Brainwashing takes time and effort. Working a crowd of rubes takes communication skills and manuvering to avoid being exposed. A blood mage can attain control over an individual that utterly overrides their self control with the wave of a hand. There is a difference between carefully manipulating people, brainwashing, or something like Stockholm syndrome and bypassing anyone's natural inclinations to make them do what you want.

If blood control was better than non-magical methods, no one would use it. Why bother when it brings about more trouble than its worth?

Not exactly. Remember leliana? Her prefered method of infiltration was manipulating other people into doing what she wanted. As she said she was very good at it. Theres no difference. 

[Augoeides]

Cazlee wrote...

Augoeides wrote...
Exactly! Her loyalty to Loghain was so strong that of her own free will she chose to follow him despite his actions. He inspired or intimidated a loyalty into her that was tantamount to brainwashing her to ignore her better reasoning. That is just as much mind control was the blood magic spell, except in some ways, worse. Rather than acting against her will to do certain things, she was doing those things of her own free will because she believed them to be the truth. Ser Landry was involved in similar circumstances but he saw reason in a much easier fashion.

She had a choice. That's the difference.  And it wasn't a simple black or white decision. Loghain judged that the battle was lost, and as such believed he was doing the best thing for his army by retreating.

So I ask again, why are mages scrutinized for their abilities to manipulate magically when others can do the same just as easily without magic?

Like the chantry? They are very much scrutinized, at least on this forum.

I take your points and I do agree with them, quite a lot actually, but I still can't shake the feeling that the mind control aspect of blood magic has been blown out of proportion. I also see the Chantry gets a good lashing on here, and I am perplexed by people who refuse to see how the Chantry abuses power but that's a different discussion entirely, although greatly parallel to the debate of the abuse of power leading to becoming something else entirely.

I'd be interested to know how the mage who Blood Controls more than one or two people actually fare themselves, considering that activating 'Blood Magic' is a prerequisite for using Blood Control, then, moving on an assumption that gameplay does = reality in this instance, to achieve achieve any kind of major mind control on groups of people would require a dedicated team of mages or they'd be literally painting the town red.

[Seagloom]

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

Not exactly. Remember leliana? Her prefered method of infiltration was manipulating other people into doing what she wanted. As she said she was very good at it. Theres no difference.

Infiltrating is very different from control. If the blood mage's goal is to sneak in or spy, then yes it is equivalent. Leliana relied on misdirection and stealth to accomplish her goals. Leliana lied when needed, and that sufficed because by the time her mark figures out what happened they are either dead or she was nowhere to be found.

For Leliana to gain anywhere near the measure of control a blood mage can over anyone at will, she would need to groom someone the way Marjolaine did her. The way Marjolaine had Leliana wrapped around her finger was much closer to a blood control effect, and it likely took years to develop.

Could Leliana make any random person do exactly what she wants through verbal cues and body language alone? Doubt it. If she made an extreme request like... strip naked, slaughter your whole family, and then run into the town square singing a bawdy song, the person would have to be insane to accept that request from a woman they just met. It does not matter how flattering and sly she is. A blood mage can make someone they just met do exactly that with a single spell.

[Augoeides]

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

Seagloom wrote...

Augoeides wrote...

So I ask again, why are mages scrutinized for their abilities to manipulate magically when others can do the same just as easily without magic?

Brainwashing takes time and effort. Working a crowd of rubes takes communication skills and manuvering to avoid being exposed. A blood mage can attain control over an individual that utterly overrides their self control with the wave of a hand. There is a difference between carefully manipulating people, brainwashing, or something like Stockholm syndrome and bypassing anyone's natural inclinations to make them do what you want.

If blood control was better than non-magical methods, no one would use it. Why bother when it brings about more trouble than its worth?

Not exactly. Remember leliana? Her prefered method of infiltration was manipulating other people into doing what she wanted. As she said she was very good at it. Theres no difference. 

We're also working on the assumption that mind control via blood magic is easy. Although I did say 'just as easily' which does imply that controlling people with blood magic is easy, we don't actually know how much effort or risk or talent it requires to do so. For gameplay reasons it may be a wave of your hand or staff or sword or whatever, but in a more 'real' sense there may be a lot more to the Blood Control than DA:O combat lets on.

[Augoeides]

Seagloom wrote...

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

Not exactly. Remember leliana? Her prefered method of infiltration was manipulating other people into doing what she wanted. As she said she was very good at it. Theres no difference.

Infiltrating is very different from control. If the blood mage's goal is to sneak in or spy, then yes it is equivalent. Leliana relied on misdirection and stealth to accomplish her goals. Leliana lied when needed, and that sufficed because by the time her mark figures out what happened they are either dead or she was nowhere to be found.

For Leliana to gain anywhere near the measure of control a blood mage can over anyone at will, she would need to groom someone the way Marjolaine did her. The way Marjolaine had Leliana wrapped around her finger was much closer to a blood control effect, and it likely took years to develop.

Could Leliana make any random person do exactly what she wants through verbal cues and body language alone? Doubt it. If she made an extreme request like... strip naked, slaughter your whole family, and then run into the town square singing a bawdy song, the person would have to be insane to accept that request from a woman they just met. It does not matter how flattering and sly she is. A blood mage can make someone they just met do exactly that with a single spell.

A very valid point and one that kicks the point I just made about the debatable 'easy-ness' and 'effort requirements' of Blood Control in the balls.

[Cazlee]

Augoeides wrote...

Cazlee wrote...

Augoeides wrote...
Exactly! Her loyalty to Loghain was so strong that of her own free will she chose to follow him despite his actions. He inspired or intimidated a loyalty into her that was tantamount to brainwashing her to ignore her better reasoning. That is just as much mind control was the blood magic spell, except in some ways, worse. Rather than acting against her will to do certain things, she was doing those things of her own free will because she believed them to be the truth. Ser Landry was involved in similar circumstances but he saw reason in a much easier fashion.

She had a choice. That's the difference.  And it wasn't a simple black or white decision. Loghain judged that the battle was lost, and as such believed he was doing the best thing for his army by retreating.

So I ask again, why are mages scrutinized for their abilities to manipulate magically when others can do the same just as easily without magic?

Like the chantry? They are very much scrutinized, at least on this forum.

I take your points and I do agree with them, quite a lot actually, but I still can't shake the feeling that the mind control aspect of blood magic has been blown out of proportion. I also see the Chantry gets a good lashing on here, and I am perplexed by people who refuse to see how the Chantry abuses power but that's a different discussion entirely, although greatly parallel to the debate of the abuse of power leading to becoming something else entirely.

I'd be interested to know how the mage who Blood Controls more than one or two people actually fare themselves, considering that activating 'Blood Magic' is a prerequisite for using Blood Control, then, moving on an assumption that gameplay does = reality in this instance, to achieve achieve any kind of major mind control on groups of people would require a dedicated team of mages or they'd be literally painting the town red.

I agree. We encountered a lot of blood mages and none tried to mind control us. It seems this aspect of blood magic was made up to scare people. Loghaine would have been a perfect example of mind control, but he made those decisions himself.

[Seagloom]

Augoeides wrote...

We're also working on the assumption that mind control via blood magic is easy. Although I did say 'just as easily' which does imply that controlling people with blood magic is easy, we don't actually know how much effort or risk or talent it requires to do so. For gameplay reasons it may be a wave of your hand or staff or sword or whatever, but in a more 'real' sense there may be a lot more to the Blood Control than DA:O combat lets on.

Well, I do not see it as easy to learn. More like easy to do once you learn how. The desire demon in Redcliffe made a bunch of guards and Teegan into thralls easily enough. I suppose maintaining control might be trickier, however, since Teegan snaps out of it after being pummeled a bit. It may be the blood mage needs to passively concentrate.

Edit: And yes, this is obviously speculation.

Modifié par Seagloom, 06 février 2011 - 12:39 .

[Eclipse_9990]

Seagloom wrote...

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

Not exactly. Remember leliana? Her prefered method of infiltration was manipulating other people into doing what she wanted. As she said she was very good at it. Theres no difference.

Infiltrating is very different from control. If the blood mage's goal is to sneak in or spy, then yes it is equivalent. Leliana relied on misdirection and stealth to accomplish her goals. Leliana lied when needed, and that sufficed because by the time her mark figures out what happened they are either dead or she was nowhere to be found.

For Leliana to gain anywhere near the measure of control a blood mage can over anyone at will, she would need to groom someone the way Marjolaine did her. The way Marjolaine had Leliana wrapped around her finger was much closer to a blood control effect, and it likely took years to develop.

Could Leliana make any random person do exactly what she wants through verbal cues and body language alone? Doubt it. If she made an extreme request like... strip naked, slaughter your whole family, and then run into the town square singing a bawdy song, the person would have to be insane to accept that request from a woman they just met. It does not matter how flattering and sly she is. A blood mage can make someone they just met do exactly that with a single spell.

Hmm.. I guess you may have a point here.

Also.. "make an extreme request like... strip naked, slaughter your whole family, and then run into the town square singing a bawdy song." Is it bad that I really want to do this in DA2? 

Modifié par Eclipse_9990, 06 février 2011 - 12:39 .

[Augoeides]

Seagloom wrote...

Augoeides wrote...

We're also working on the assumption that mind control via blood magic is easy. Although I did say 'just as easily' which does imply that controlling people with blood magic is easy, we don't actually know how much effort or risk or talent it requires to do so. For gameplay reasons it may be a wave of your hand or staff or sword or whatever, but in a more 'real' sense there may be a lot more to the Blood Control than DA:O combat lets on.

Well, I do not see it as easy to learn. More like easy to do once you learn how. The desire demon in Redcliffe made a bunch of guards and Teegan into thralls easily enough. I suppose maintaining control might be trickier, however, since Teegan snaps out of it after being pummeled a bit. It may be the blood mage needs to passively concentrate.

Edit: And yes, this is obviously speculation.

Pretty reasonable speculation if you ask me.

I just had thought, if using the Litran of Andralla not only breaks the control of blood mages but 'immunizes' them against further blood magic control (according to the game, I don't remember who said it though, possibly Wynne) then why don't they 'litanize' people at birth? xD (highly implausible I realize)

Edit: I also love the quote in your sig, just went up as my new facebook status. /high-fives

Modifié par Augoeides, 06 février 2011 - 12:44 .

[Seagloom]

Augoeides wrote...
Pretty reasonable speculation if you ask me.

I just had thought, if using the Litran of Andralla not only breaks the control of blood mages but 'immunizes' them against further blood magic control (according to the game, I don't remember who said it though, possibly Wynne) then why don't they 'litanize' people at birth? xD (highly implausible I realize)

Edit: I also love the quote in your sig, just went up as my new facebook status. /high-fives

Thank you. I am quite fond of the late Ms. Parker's writings.

Unfortunately the Litany of Adralla does not work as a preemptive measure. It just disrupts blood magic during the casting phase.

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

Also.. "make an extreme request like... strip naked, slaughter your whole family, and then run into the town square singing a bawdy song." Is it bad that I really want to do this in DA2?

Heck no. I would also lurve to make a bunch of Templars dance something silly like the Macarena before forcing them to stab each other.

Modifié par Seagloom, 06 février 2011 - 12:53 .

[AlexXIV]

Eclipse_9990 wrote...
Bold 2: Really? Wow. I have never seen that.. At all. Um.. Do you have a  mage in your party that knows walking bomb? Because I've never seen that ever. When ever I killed the guards, the elves that sided with them just attacked me.. Thats it.. 

I always thought it was a bug. I never seen them explode either. I usually attack the mages directly and bring them down quick. If the first time elves turn hostile, I just reload the auto-save after the dialogue and kill them quick and never have to kill any elf. If it was bloodmagic that controlled them I assume they would stop being hostile after you kill the mages, which is not the case. It doesn't wear off so it is sort of a bug to me and not really mind control.

I also noticed in the circle when you fight uldred all mages die after the fight even if you 'saved' them. They just drop dead for no reason, so I were careful to bring crappy gamemechanics into discussions as facts.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 06 février 2011 - 01:01 .