363 réponses à ce sujet

[IanPolaris]

Maconbar wrote...

Using an example from Harry Potter, could blood magic corrupt one's humanity in a way similar to the corruption that occurs when creating a horcrux?

The difference is that making a horcrux requires an act of cold-blooded murder.  Bloodmagic does not.  Big difference.

-Polaris

[Eclipse_9990]

Maconbar wrote...

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

Blood magic isn't like the taint where it automatically corrupts your mind, and changes you. 

How do you know that with any degree of certainty? If you are correct and blood magic doesn't have a corrupting influence then I would fully agree but right now I don't know that.

Has blood magic really actually changed people? Back in the circle when Lily saw Jowan use Blood Magic she says the it corrupts people, and changes them. But the next time we meet Jowan in Redcliff,  in which the time past in the story is at least a few months. He really hasn't changed at all, He's the same Jowan if not a little wiser than he was in the circle. Like someone mentioned. If you let Jowan go. He'll use his Blood Magic to save a group of refugees from Dark Spawn, is that something that someone corrupted by Blood Magic would do? 

Then Avernus.. He might not be the best example since I assume the majority of people might view him as "evil" but he's been in the keep for probably centuries. And his main task was keeping demons from leaving the keep, and hurting people. If Blood Magic really corrupted him he wouldnt care at all, infact he might even support it. 

Modifié par Eclipse_9990, 05 février 2011 - 11:47 .

[Marionetten]

IanPolaris wrote...



There is no in game evidence that blood magic creates inherent corruption. None.

Except for the fact that it was created and taught by demons. Which is a pretty big deal. A blood mage might have the best of intentions but I find it exceedingly hard to believe that there are no hidden fees considering the source.

[AlexXIV]

Maconbar wrote...

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

Blood magic isn't like the taint where it automatically corrupts your mind, and changes you. 

Blood magic isn't more evil than for example nuclear power. It can be used for evil mind you, as in form of nuclear bombs. It can also be used to supply people with energy. For a price of course. People keep misinterpreting cause and effect. For example blood magic/magic caused the blights, hence bloodmagic/magic is evil. But the truth is, that's wrong. Humans caused it. They used magic/bloodmagic to evil ends. If anything it makes humans evil. But we don't go around saying 'You are human, you must be imprisoned/tortured/killed.' just because humans caused the blight. Even the chantry teaches that it was the hubris of men who caused the blight. Not because magic is inherently evil. Bloodmagic is forbidden because humans could, in the past, not handle it. That's the same as if alcohol would be forbidden because bad things happen when people get drunk. That doesn't mean that other people could not handle alcohol in a responsible fashion. I think most people who connect bloodmagic with evil things are just victims of their own imagination. They connect it with the worst crimes they can think of. Which may even have happened the way they imagine it, but not because of the 'evil' of bloodmagic, but because of unscrupulous men.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 05 février 2011 - 11:58 .

[LobselVith8]

Marionetten wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

There is no in game evidence that blood magic creates inherent corruption. None.

Except for the fact that it was created and taught by demons. Which is a pretty big deal. A blood mage might have the best of intentions but I find it exceedingly hard to believe that there are no hidden fees considering the source.

That isn't proof it's corrupt. They're teaching knowledge about an art of the arcane that is very powerful. Any power can be misused, but that doesn't make it evil.

[Eclipse_9990]

Marionetten wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

There is no in game evidence that blood magic creates inherent corruption. None.

Except for the fact that it was created and taught by demons. Which is a pretty big deal. A blood mage might have the best of intentions but I find it exceedingly hard to believe that there are no hidden fees considering the source.

Yeah there is a fee. Its called blood... . Just like mana is a "fee" for casting magic. 
The thing is with blood magic there is no down side, besides the fact that your potentially killing yourself.. But thats only if you go overboard with the wrist slitting.. 

[AlexXIV]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Marionetten wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

There is no in game evidence that blood magic creates inherent corruption. None.

Except for the fact that it was created and taught by demons. Which is a pretty big deal. A blood mage might have the best of intentions but I find it exceedingly hard to believe that there are no hidden fees considering the source.

That isn't proof it's corrupt. They're teaching knowledge about an art of the arcane that is very powerful. Any power can be misused, but that doesn't make it evil.

It is created by demons? Is there a source to proof that claim?

[Marionetten]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Marionetten wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

There is no in game evidence that blood magic creates inherent corruption. None.

Except for the fact that it was created and taught by demons. Which is a pretty big deal. A blood mage might have the best of intentions but I find it exceedingly hard to believe that there are no hidden fees considering the source.

That isn't proof it's corrupt. They're teaching knowledge about an art of the arcane that is very powerful. Any power can be misused, but that doesn't make it evil.

Of course it isn't proof of anything and that's kind of the point. Blood magic is one of the least explored schools given its highly questionable nature. As such, I find it somewhat foolish to assume that it's perfectly peachy to abuse it. Demons aren't exactly known for being charitable entities.

AlexXIV wrote...

It is created by demons? Is there a source to proof that claim?

http://dragonage.wik...wiki/Blood_Mage

A blood mage is a mage who employs dark rites, originally taught to mortals by demons, in order to access more powerful magic.

Modifié par Marionetten, 05 février 2011 - 11:58 .

[Eclipse_9990]

AlexXIV wrote...

Maconbar wrote...

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

Blood magic isn't like the taint where it automatically corrupts your mind, and changes you. 

Blood magic isn't more evil than for example nuclear power. It can be used for evil mind you, as are nuclear bombs. It can also be used to supply people with energy. For a price of course. People keep misinterpreting cause and effect. For example blood magic/magic caused the blights, hence bloodmagic/magic is evil. But the truth is, that's wrong. Humans caused it. They used magic/bloodmagic to evil ends. If anything it makes humans evil. But we don't go around saying 'You are human, you must be imprisoned/tortured/killed.' just because humans caused the blight. Even the chantry teaches that it was the hubris of men who caused the blight. Not because magic is inherently evil. Bloodmagic is forbidden because humans could, in the past, not handle it. That's the same as if alcohol would be forbidden because bad things happen when people get drunk. That doesn't mean that other people could not handle alcohol in a responsible fashion. I think most people who connect bloodmagic with evil things are just victims of their own imagination. They connect it with the worst crimes they can think of. Which may even have happened the way they imagine it, but not because of the 'evil' of bloodmagic, but because of unscrupulous men.

Awesome points bro. But you might want to put some spaces between this so its easier for other people to read okay? 

[Ecaiki]

IanPolaris wrote...

It would be a resort though.  Farmers flood out rodents every year btw and the rodents are just as dead.  Frankly you are "saving the rabbit from the fox" when you take your state position to it's full logical conclusion, and yes it's ridiculous.  As for "not taking life unless needed" there is nothing about bloodmagic that requires you to take life.  It requires life energy.  So does a blood transfusion.

Don't know where you pulled that idea from, the logic I used doesn't lead there, at all.

Blood magic requires life to fuel it.  Sure some abilities don't require a full life sacrifice, but some more powerful spells (like the one Jowan would have used to save Conner) that do.  A blood transfusion is not the same thing.

And you get to determing how one properly should "earn" to eat their meat?  Please.

It's the same logical extension of your stated position and it's silly.  All life requires death to survive.  Even vetegarians.  It's an instrinsic consequence of the second law of thermodynamics.  That being so, no all life is equally precious.  Human life >> Animal life, and bloodmagic doesn't even require life to work.  It requires life energy which need not equate to death.

Of course not, I'm not a god.  However nature has determined that earning one's meat involves catching and killing something.  If you can't do that then you don't deserve it.

Not true, a herbivore (to extend this to the animal kingdom) can eat leaves, or fruit, both of which don't require the death of the providing plant.  In fact most plants want their fruit eaten, as it spreads their seeds (along with free "nourishment") to other parts of the area.

You're deluding yourself if you think life and life energy can be seperated like that, they are one and the same and blood magic requires it to function.

[Apophis2412]

An argument I have often heard about dangerous things like guns etc. is that guns don't kill people but people kill people. This may be true, but very powerful guns are still outlawed for a reason.



I guess blood magic can be compared to a nuke; both are neutral tools, but far to powerful to just let anyone have acces to them.

[Eclipse_9990]

AlexXIV wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Marionetten wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

There is no in game evidence that blood magic creates inherent corruption. None.

Except for the fact that it was created and taught by demons. Which is a pretty big deal. A blood mage might have the best of intentions but I find it exceedingly hard to believe that there are no hidden fees considering the source.

That isn't proof it's corrupt. They're teaching knowledge about an art of the arcane that is very powerful. Any power can be misused, but that doesn't make it evil.

It is created by demons? Is there a source to proof that claim?

There isnt really any proof, aside from the fact that demons know the spells. But that doesnt really mean that much. Since demons know "regular" magic as well. Also some dragons apparently know blood magic also. 

Remember when you were escaping the Architects lair in Awakening? You had to fight two dragons that knew Reaver talents, and Blood Magic. That and Lore says that Humans learned blood magic from dragons in the first place. 

Modifié par Eclipse_9990, 05 février 2011 - 12:12 .

[Maconbar]

IanPolaris wrote...

Maconbar wrote...

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

Blood magic isn't like the taint where it automatically corrupts your mind, and changes you. 

How do you know that with any degree of certainty? If you are correct and blood magic doesn't have a corrupting influence then I would fully agree but right now I don't know that.

There is no in game evidence that blood magic creates inherent corruption.  None.

Jowan may have been an idiot but he wasn't corrupted by bloodmagic and he used it extensively.  He was and remained a basically decent person.  Likewise your PC Warden can be a bloodmage and there is no apparent corruption there either (nor for those you teach bloodmagic too).  For that matter Merrill in DA2 appears to be a bloodmage and basically a good person.

Bloodmagic is dangers and more potent than normal magic and it opens up possibility (like mindcontrol) that are extremely tempting and prone to corruption, but that doesn't mean bloodmagic itself causes corruption and there is no evidence of that in the game other than unsupported assertions usually by Chantry apologists.

-Polaris

My general sense is that you are correct. I don't think that it is likely that blood magic is intrinsically corrupting in nature but I don't think that anyone has "proved" that it isn't. Many of the mages, and they aren't all Chantry apologists, express uneasiness about blood magic and I think that shouldn't be entirely dismissed.

However, I am not entirely convinced that Jowan is "a basically decent person." I would probably argue that he was caught and was trying to save his skin any way he could. Again that doesn't mean that he was corrupted.

[AlexXIV]

Marionetten wrote...
http://dragonage.wik...wiki/Blood_Mage

A blood mage is a mage who employs dark rites, originally taught to mortals by demons, in order to access more powerful magic.

And that's why people argue with wrong facts. It doesn't say it was created by demons. It was originally taught by demons and it was 'maybe' (still don't believe that) the first form of magic on Thedas. We don't exactly know where bloodmagic came from before demons. It may just be that demons teach bloodmagic because they know that humans have a hard time handle it and it gives them a better chance to slip into the world of mortals and possess them.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 05 février 2011 - 12:05 .

[Maconbar]

IanPolaris wrote...

Maconbar wrote...

Using an example from Harry Potter, could blood magic corrupt one's humanity in a way similar to the corruption that occurs when creating a horcrux?

The difference is that making a horcrux requires an act of cold-blooded murder.  Bloodmagic does not.  Big difference.

-Polaris

Again all I am stating is that blood magic COULD be similar not that it IS. My understanding is that some elements of blood magic could require murder.

Nobody here can claim to be an expert on Dragon Age blood magic.

[Marionetten]

AlexXIV wrote...

And that's why people argue with wrong facts. It doesn't say it was created by demons. It was originally taught by demons and it was 'maybe' (still don't believe that) the first form of magic on Thedas. We don't exactly know where bloodmagic come from before demons. It may just be that demons teach bloodmagic because they know that humans have a hard time handle it and it gives them a better chance to slip into the world of mortals and possess them.

May, may and may. See what I mean? You're all operating on far too positive assumptions here.

None of this changes the fact that blood magic was explicitly taught by a demon in Dragon Age: Origins or that the lore supports the idea of it being a demonic art. Could it be the other way around? Yeah, sure. But it's highly unlikely and there is no real evidence which supports that idea.

[Eclipse_9990]

Apophis2412 wrote...

An argument I have often heard about dangerous things like guns etc. is that guns don't kill people but people kill people. This may be true, but very powerful guns are still outlawed for a reason.

I guess blood magic can be compared to a nuke; both are neutral tools, but far to powerful to just let anyone have acces to them.

I guess I can understand this. I support blood magic, but it probably wouldn't be wise to just let any novice learn it.
It should probably be something that you have to earn the right to be taught. 

Also if it wasn't for blood magic you probably wouldn't be grey wardens.
The Joining is by all intents and purposes a blood magic ritual do not be fooled. 

Modifié par Eclipse_9990, 05 février 2011 - 12:15 .

[Eclipse_9990]

Maconbar wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Maconbar wrote...

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

Blood magic isn't like the taint where it automatically corrupts your mind, and changes you. 

How do you know that with any degree of certainty? If you are correct and blood magic doesn't have a corrupting influence then I would fully agree but right now I don't know that.

There is no in game evidence that blood magic creates inherent corruption.  None.

Jowan may have been an idiot but he wasn't corrupted by bloodmagic and he used it extensively.  He was and remained a basically decent person.  Likewise your PC Warden can be a bloodmage and there is no apparent corruption there either (nor for those you teach bloodmagic too).  For that matter Merrill in DA2 appears to be a bloodmage and basically a good person.

Bloodmagic is dangers and more potent than normal magic and it opens up possibility (like mindcontrol) that are extremely tempting and prone to corruption, but that doesn't mean bloodmagic itself causes corruption and there is no evidence of that in the game other than unsupported assertions usually by Chantry apologists.

-Polaris

My general sense is that you are correct. I don't think that it is likely that blood magic is intrinsically corrupting in nature but I don't think that anyone has "proved" that it isn't. Many of the mages, and they aren't all Chantry apologists, express uneasiness about blood magic and I think that shouldn't be entirely dismissed.

However, I am not entirely convinced that Jowan is "a basically decent person." I would probably argue that he was caught and was trying to save his skin any way he could. Again that doesn't mean that he was corrupted.

But if you let Jowan go he saves refugees from getting killed. If he was just out to save his skin wouldnt he have just ignored them, and let them be slaughtered? 

[rabidhanar]

In my opinion is blood magic evil: Not in any way



Is blood magic a potentially risky and extremely powerful weapon? By all means.



Any spell that is not limited by the spellcaster's limits (mana, stamina, willpower, lifeforce if you will) has a chance to backfire, to become corrupted, or to cause untold chaos to the individuals surrounding said spellcaster.



Remember the Tevinter Imperium folks: powerful bloodmages, used slaves as living batteries, tried to usurp heaven (if you follow the chantry, pffhh), and created the darkspawn. What a wonderfully inspiring list of accomplishments the Imperium obtained!



While Blood Magic cannot corrupt by itself, like any other powerful ability/position Blood Magic can lead to corrupt ideals or stright tyranny.

[Marionetten]

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

The Joining is by all intents and purposes a blood magic ritual do not be fooled.

Which gradually consumes your life force along with your sanity.

[AlexXIV]

Marionetten wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

And that's why people argue with wrong facts. It doesn't say it was created by demons. It was originally taught by demons and it was 'maybe' (still don't believe that) the first form of magic on Thedas. We don't exactly know where bloodmagic come from before demons. It may just be that demons teach bloodmagic because they know that humans have a hard time handle it and it gives them a better chance to slip into the world of mortals and possess them.

May, may and may. See what I mean? You're all operating on far too positive assumptions here.

None of this changes the fact that blood magic was explicitly taught by a demon in Dragon Age: Origins or that the lore supports the idea of it being a demonic art. Could it be the other way around? Yeah, sure. But it's highly unlikely and there is no real evidence which supports that idea.

Yes, I am merely pointing out that there are other possibilities. Mind you most blood mages probably do evil things. But most is not all. So I would be for example careful to judge a person merely on the fact that he or she is using bloodmagic. Take Avernus for example. He did horrible things. But he did it with good intentions. He is no saint for sure, but neither is he some demon or demon-possessed person. He did what the thought is necessary.

The Wardens only exist because of blood magic. Morrigan's ritual was bloodmagic. Yet both is sort of a victory over the blight. It is like fighting fire with fire. It may be that to finally end the blight research in bloodmagic is crucial. So will you damn everyone who does research bloodmagic, even if their only goal is to find clues as how to end the blights forever?

[Eclipse_9990]

Marionetten wrote...

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

The Joining is by all intents and purposes a blood magic ritual do not be fooled.

Which gradually consumes your life force along with your sanity.

The consuming of life force, and sanity isn't a result of blood magic. Its a result of the taint. 

[Maconbar]

AlexXIV wrote...

Maconbar wrote...

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

Blood magic isn't like the taint where it automatically corrupts your mind, and changes you. 

Blood magic isn't more evil than for example nuclear power. It can be used for evil mind you, as in form of nuclear bombs. It can also be used to supply people with energy. For a price of course. People keep misinterpreting cause and effect. For example blood magic/magic caused the blights, hence bloodmagic/magic is evil. But the truth is, that's wrong. Humans caused it. They used magic/bloodmagic to evil ends. If anything it makes humans evil. But we don't go around saying 'You are human, you must be imprisoned/tortured/killed.' just because humans caused the blight. Even the chantry teaches that it was the hubris of men who caused the blight. Not because magic is inherently evil. Bloodmagic is forbidden because humans could, in the past, not handle it. That's the same as if alcohol would be forbidden because bad things happen when people get drunk. That doesn't mean that other people could not handle alcohol in a responsible fashion. I think most people who connect bloodmagic with evil things are just victims of their own imagination. They connect it with the worst crimes they can think of. Which may even have happened the way they imagine it, but not because of the 'evil' of bloodmagic, but because of unscrupulous men.

How do you know for certain that Blood Magic is equivalent to nuclear power?

Most of us here probably understand the basics of how nuclear power is generated. I can't say the same about blood magic. One of my warden's was a blood mage and didn't exhibit any signs of corruption but that character only learned a few of the blood magic-related abilities.

[AlexXIV]

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

Marionetten wrote...

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

The Joining is by all intents and purposes a blood magic ritual do not be fooled.

Which gradually consumes your life force along with your sanity.

The consuming of life force, and sanity isn't a result of blood magic. Its a result of the taint. 

Well also it is a sacrifice they take willingly. Maybe not exactly willingly, but that's more a fult of the Wardens and not of bloodmagic per se. Anyway, they decide to become Wardens in the first place because a Warden is many times more efficient fighting the blight and blighted creatures.

[Eclipse_9990]

Maconbar wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Maconbar wrote...

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

Blood magic isn't like the taint where it automatically corrupts your mind, and changes you. 

Blood magic isn't more evil than for example nuclear power. It can be used for evil mind you, as in form of nuclear bombs. It can also be used to supply people with energy. For a price of course. People keep misinterpreting cause and effect. For example blood magic/magic caused the blights, hence bloodmagic/magic is evil. But the truth is, that's wrong. Humans caused it. They used magic/bloodmagic to evil ends. If anything it makes humans evil. But we don't go around saying 'You are human, you must be imprisoned/tortured/killed.' just because humans caused the blight. Even the chantry teaches that it was the hubris of men who caused the blight. Not because magic is inherently evil. Bloodmagic is forbidden because humans could, in the past, not handle it. That's the same as if alcohol would be forbidden because bad things happen when people get drunk. That doesn't mean that other people could not handle alcohol in a responsible fashion. I think most people who connect bloodmagic with evil things are just victims of their own imagination. They connect it with the worst crimes they can think of. Which may even have happened the way they imagine it, but not because of the 'evil' of bloodmagic, but because of unscrupulous men.

How do you know for certain that Blood Magic is equivalent to nuclear power?

Most of us here probably understand the basics of how nuclear power is generated. I can't say the same about blood magic. One of my warden's was a blood mage and didn't exhibit any signs of corruption but that character only learned a few of the blood magic-related abilities.

Well most of my wardens were Blood Mages, and learned all the blood magic abilities. And he wasnt changed.. Then again its the PC so I don't think the same rules apply here.