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The Blood Mage Stigma


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#151
Apophis2412

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Eclipse_9990 wrote...

Apophis2412 wrote...

An argument I have often heard about dangerous things like guns etc. is that guns don't kill people but people kill people. This may be true, but very powerful guns are still outlawed for a reason.

I guess blood magic can be compared to a nuke; both are neutral tools, but far to powerful to just let anyone have acces to them.


I guess I can understand this. I support blood magic, but it probably wouldn't be wise to just let any novice learn it.
It should probably be something that you have to earn the right to be taught. 


Exactly. We don't allow everyone to buy machine guns and C-4, but only give them to people who will use them right (ie the army or police).

#152
AlexXIV

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Maconbar wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Maconbar wrote...

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

Blood magic isn't like the taint where it automatically corrupts your mind, and changes you. 


Blood magic isn't more evil than for example nuclear power. It can be used for evil mind you, as in form of nuclear bombs. It can also be used to supply people with energy. For a price of course. People keep misinterpreting cause and effect. For example blood magic/magic caused the blights, hence bloodmagic/magic is evil. But the truth is, that's wrong. Humans caused it. They used magic/bloodmagic to evil ends. If anything it makes humans evil. But we don't go around saying 'You are human, you must be imprisoned/tortured/killed.' just because humans caused the blight. Even the chantry teaches that it was the hubris of men who caused the blight. Not because magic is inherently evil. Bloodmagic is forbidden because humans could, in the past, not handle it. That's the same as if alcohol would be forbidden because bad things happen when people get drunk. That doesn't mean that other people could not handle alcohol in a responsible fashion. I think most people who connect bloodmagic with evil things are just victims of their own imagination. They connect it with the worst crimes they can think of. Which may even have happened the way they imagine it, but not because of the 'evil' of bloodmagic, but because of unscrupulous men.


How do you know for certain that Blood Magic is equivalent to nuclear power?

Most of us here probably understand the basics of how nuclear power is generated. I can't say the same about blood magic. One of my warden's was a blood mage and didn't exhibit any signs of corruption but that character only learned a few of the blood magic-related abilities.


It was just an example. Nuclear power is nowadays a neccessity. Without it our world would look alot different. Yet it does have quite a bunch of negative sides. It's neither good nor bad, but it is there. Always was there just waiting to be discovered. And used. Maybe same counts for bloodmagic. And it has been used to evil things and could at one point have destoyed the whole world, and still can actually. That's what nuclear power and bloodmagic have in common.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 05 février 2011 - 12:20 .


#153
Marionetten

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AlexXIV wrote...

Yes, I am merely pointing out that there are other possibilities. Mind you most blood mages probably do evil things. But most is not all. So I would be for example careful to judge a person merely on the fact that he or she is using bloodmagic. Take Avernus for example. He did horrible things. But he did it with good intentions. He is no saint for sure, but neither is he some demon or demon-possessed person. He did what the thought is necessary.

The Wardens only exist because of blood magic. Morrigan's ritual was bloodmagic. Yet both is sort of a victory over the blight. It is like fighting fire with fire. It may be that to finally end the blight research in bloodmagic is crucial. So will you damn everyone who does research bloodmagic, even if their only goal is to find clues as how to end the blights forever?

I don't think all blood mages are necessarily evil. In fact, my favorite character in Dragon Age: Origins was a blood mage. As said, some of them have the best of intentions. It's not like Jowan picked it up to rule the world or anything. He just wanted to be a better mage. Avernus is more debatable but I think he started out with good intentions too.

But even so, you still have to look at what we know about blood magic and take precautions based on that. The skepticism expressed by the chantry, the circle and even blood mages themselves is more than warranted.

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

The consuming of life force, and sanity isn't a result of blood magic. Its a result of the taint.

It's the result of a ritual which involves the taint and blood magic.

Modifié par Marionetten, 05 février 2011 - 12:22 .


#154
LobselVith8

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In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

NTsikuris wrote...

As we all know, Blood Magic is a dark, forbidden magic and is usually only taught by demons. But couldn't someone of benevolent nature be a Blood Mage? Surely not all Blood Mages are evil. Could the Devs explain more on this subject? It would be greatly appreciated.


Duncan admits that Grey Wardens have resorted to blood magic to fight the darkspawn.


It seems implied that the Joining is bloodmagic.


That's true - it involves Archdemon and darkspawn blood, after all, along with magic from the Circle mages. Even the templars using a phylactery to hunt down a mage has been termed a form of blood magic by Gaider.

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

Well I actually let Avernus live to continue his research. Why? If he successfully  unlocks the power of the blood for Warden's it would give them such a huge advantage in the long run, and will make killing Darkspawn that much simpler. Sure a few Wardens might die from the experiments, but I believe my Warden wouldn't shed a tear if it got the job done. 


That's a very good point, Eclipse. It is a pragmatic decision, but one I think is necessary. The darkspawn have taken over the Deep Roads - which spreads across the entire continent of Thedas - and they've been a threat for over a milennia. It's no different with the Anvil - it brought the dwarves a hundred years of peace and beat back the first Archdemon. The Wardens do whatever is necessary to defeat the darkspawn, after all.

Ecaiki wrote...

2) Subverting the will of another being for any reason is never a good thing, it's the same reason we find slavery so offensive.


And if the blood mage used his powers to stop Vaughan from abducting the elven women from the Alienage because he planned to rape them, would that also be evil and slavery, even when it saves all those women from an act that's truly evil? What about when blood magic is used to stop a few darkspawn from killing people, or when Grey Wardens use blood magic to combat them?

#155
AlexXIV

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Well I don't argue that bloodmagic is dangerous and that sceptism is warrranted. I argue that it is not inherently evil. Or in other words, it is a powerful tool/weapon. To what ends it is used, is up to the ones who use it. Be it demons, mortals or whatever else out there can use magic.

#156
Maconbar

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Eclipse_9990 wrote...

Well most of my wardens were Blood Mages, and learned all the blood magic abilities. And he wasnt changed.. Then again its the PC so I don't think the same rules apply here. 


I don't think that the PC learned all of the blood magic abilities. Avernus' knowledge of blood magic appears to be deeper than that possessed by the PC. At least I am hoping that a blood mage PC will learn more spells and gain more abilities in DA:2.

Again I am not necessarily disagreeing with assertions that blood magic is neutral. I am prepared to wait until I play DA:2 and read any new codices before reaching a stronger conclusion.

#157
Eclipse_9990

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Marionetten wrote...

The consuming of life force, and sanity isn't a result of blood magic. Its a result of the taint.
It's the result of a ritual which involves the taint and blood magic.


Dude blood magic has nothing to do with it. When has blood magic lowered the life span of its user. If anything Avernus is a Blood Mage, and blood magic lengthened his life span.
Its the taint that kills, and maddens the wardens. Not blood magic. 

Modifié par Eclipse_9990, 05 février 2011 - 12:30 .


#158
rabidhanar

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Eclipse_9990 wrote...
Well most of my wardens were Blood Mages, and learned all the blood magic abilities. And he wasnt changed.. Then again its the PC so I don't think the same rules apply here. 

Yeah, that is not really a basis for an arguement, remember the Pc is also the one who can learn how to become a templar or a blood mage overnight, and can commune with demons and the like without possesion...not a very normal way of life.

I still believe however that blood magic is not inherently bad. Can bad people use it? Yes and they generally have no regrets doing so. Can good people use it? Yes (example for me is Jowan take that as you may) if the needs or survival depend on it.

Should blood mages always be punished by the chantry? No in my opinion.
All mages should be judged on their actions, not on their specialization. If a primal mage was burning infants in a great firestorm and a blood mage was trying to protect them using his/her blood magic, the primal mage should be punished, not the blood mage. Posted Image

Should blood magic be taught to apprentices? No. This rare and powerful magic should be reserved for true mages at the least, maybe even just for enchanters.

Should blood magic still be considered a forbidden school of learning? No. as with all abilities and spells mages can learn from blood magic. For example, I can see a way to gain great healing power by using the lifeforce of willing volenteers. Never to overgo their lifeforce and kill them outright. To weaken one for a period of time in order to heal the most severe wounds, that would be a great step towards the healing arts.

#159
AlexXIV

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Eclipse_9990 wrote...

Marionetten wrote...

The consuming of life force, and sanity isn't a result of blood magic. Its a result of the taint.
It's the result of a ritual which involves the taint and blood magic.


Dude blood magic has nothing to do with it. When has blood magic lowered the life span of its user. If anything Avernus is a Blood Mage, and blood magic lengthened his life span.
Its the taint that kills, and maddens the wardens. Not blood magic. 

To be fair people died for his longer lifespan. Same with Zathrian. They may both have thought it was necessary for their goals. Zathrian thought he is the only one who can protect his clan, and Avernus thought he is the only one who can continue his research.

#160
Marionetten

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Eclipse_9990 wrote...

Marionetten wrote...

The consuming of life force, and sanity isn't a result of blood magic. Its a result of the taint.
It's the result of a ritual which involves the taint and blood magic.


Dude blood magic has nothing to do with it. When has blood magic lowered the life span of its user. If anything Avernus is a Blood Mage, and blood magic lengthened his life span.
Its the taint that kills, and maddens the wardens. Not blood magic.

Avernus also used the life force of others. A small but important detail.

#161
Eclipse_9990

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rabidhanar wrote...

Eclipse_9990 wrote...
Well most of my wardens were Blood Mages, and learned all the blood magic abilities. And he wasnt changed.. Then again its the PC so I don't think the same rules apply here. 

Yeah, that is not really a basis for an arguement, remember the Pc is also the one who can learn how to become a templar or a blood mage overnight, and can commune with demons and the like without possesion...not a very normal way of life.

I still believe however that blood magic is not inherently bad. Can bad people use it? Yes and they generally have no regrets doing so. Can good people use it? Yes (example for me is Jowan take that as you may) if the needs or survival depend on it.

Should blood mages always be punished by the chantry? No in my opinion.
All mages should be judged on their actions, not on their specialization. If a primal mage was burning infants in a great firestorm and a blood mage was trying to protect them using his/her blood magic, the primal mage should be punished, not the blood mage. Posted Image

Should blood magic be taught to apprentices? No. This rare and powerful magic should be reserved for true mages at the least, maybe even just for enchanters.

Should blood magic still be considered a forbidden school of learning? No. as with all abilities and spells mages can learn from blood magic. For example, I can see a way to gain great healing power by using the lifeforce of willing volenteers. Never to overgo their lifeforce and kill them outright. To weaken one for a period of time in order to heal the most severe wounds, that would be a great step towards the healing arts.


Yes! Thank you for this point. In fact thank you for all of them. Its nice to see someone who isn't so invested in "black, and white" morality, and can see the bigger picture. 

#162
AlexXIV

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The problem with 'forbidden lore' is that even if you forbid it, people will find a way to learn it from some other source. It would probably be better to let people study it under controlled circumstances and with all the necessary precautions.

#163
AlexXIV

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Marionetten wrote...

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

Marionetten wrote...

The consuming of life force, and sanity isn't a result of blood magic. Its a result of the taint.
It's the result of a ritual which involves the taint and blood magic.


Dude blood magic has nothing to do with it. When has blood magic lowered the life span of its user. If anything Avernus is a Blood Mage, and blood magic lengthened his life span.
Its the taint that kills, and maddens the wardens. Not blood magic.

Avernus also used the life force of others. A small but important detail.

At least he used it. Duncan killed Ser Jory without gaining anything from it.

#164
Eclipse_9990

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AlexXIV wrote...

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

Marionetten wrote...

The consuming of life force, and sanity isn't a result of blood magic. Its a result of the taint.
It's the result of a ritual which involves the taint and blood magic.


Dude blood magic has nothing to do with it. When has blood magic lowered the life span of its user. If anything Avernus is a Blood Mage, and blood magic lengthened his life span.
Its the taint that kills, and maddens the wardens. Not blood magic. 

To be fair people died for his longer lifespan. Same with Zathrian. They may both have thought it was necessary for their goals. Zathrian thought he is the only one who can protect his clan, and Avernus thought he is the only one who can continue his research.


Avernus is pretty much the only one who can continue his research, or at least to the extent that is planned. Before Avernus the wardens only abilities were sensing darkspawn, and destroying an archdemons soul. Thats useful but not overly practical, in actually killing them. As for the people dieing thing.. Their deaths were necessary, I highly doubt he was killing them for his own amusement.
Think about it this way. You gotta break a few eggs to make an omelette(Calm down, I'm only kidding :P). Seriously though, his research is very important, and it seems stupid to stop it when its potential good vastly outweighs the evil needed to complete it. 

As for Zathrian... I agree with his motives, what I don't agree with is that he put his vengeance over the lives of his people. That's whats inexcusable to me. 

Modifié par Eclipse_9990, 05 février 2011 - 12:44 .


#165
Marionetten

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AlexXIV wrote...

The problem with 'forbidden lore' is that even if you forbid it, people will find a way to learn it from some other source. It would probably be better to let people study it under controlled circumstances and with all the necessary precautions.

This is true. Blood magic is far more dangerous as a forbidden art peddled by demons than it would be as a recognized school. Not only could they explore the art itself without being influced by demons but they could also explore countermeasures.

Unfortunately, I don't foresee that ever happening as long as the chantry remains in control.

#166
AlexXIV

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Eclipse_9990 wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

Marionetten wrote...

The consuming of life force, and sanity isn't a result of blood magic. Its a result of the taint.
It's the result of a ritual which involves the taint and blood magic.


Dude blood magic has nothing to do with it. When has blood magic lowered the life span of its user. If anything Avernus is a Blood Mage, and blood magic lengthened his life span.
Its the taint that kills, and maddens the wardens. Not blood magic. 

To be fair people died for his longer lifespan. Same with Zathrian. They may both have thought it was necessary for their goals. Zathrian thought he is the only one who can protect his clan, and Avernus thought he is the only one who can continue his research.


Avernus is pretty much the only one who can continue his research, or at least to the extent that is planned. Before Avernus the wardens only abilities were sensing darkspawn, and destroying an archdemons soul. Thats useful but not overly practical, in actually killing them. As for the people dieing thing.. Their deaths were necessary, I highly doubt he was killing them for his own amusement.
Think about it this way you gotta break a few eggs tomake an omelette(Calm down, I'm only kidding :P). Seriously though, his research is very important, and it seems stupid to stop it when its potential good vastly outweighs the evil needed to complete it. 

As for Zathrian... I agree with his motives, what I don't agree with is that he put his vengeance over the lives of his people. That's whats inexcusable to me. 


Also Avernus used Grey Wardens for his studies. And Grey Wardens sacrifice their lifes to fight the blight no matter what it costs. So it costed to be used in Avernus experiments. Not worse than dying in the Joining ritual.

#167
Eclipse_9990

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AlexXIV wrote...

Also Avernus used Grey Wardens for his studies. And Grey Wardens sacrifice their lifes to fight the blight no matter what it costs. So it costed to be used in Avernus experiments. Not worse than dying in the Joining ritual.


Awesome point. A Warden is going to die anyway. When they drink out of that goblet the're signing their life away one way or another. Think about it in Legion of the Damned terms.. Their pretty much already dead. 

#168
Marionetten

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Eclipse_9990 wrote...

Avernus is pretty much the only one who can continue his research, or at least to the extent that is planned. Before Avernus the wardens only abilities were sensing darkspawn, and destroying an archdemons soul. Thats useful but not overly practical, in actually killing them. As for the people dieing thing.. Their deaths were necessary, I highly doubt he was killing them for his own amusement.
Think about it this way. You gotta break a few eggs to make an omelette(Calm down, I'm only kidding :P). Seriously though, his research is very important, and it seems stupid to stop it when its potential good vastly outweighs the evil needed to complete it.

Not a very benevolent viewpoint, is it?

Avernus was a pragmatist through and through. He didn't concern himself with good or evil. He only concerned himself with making sure that the wardens had the biggest gun. To achieve his aims he enslaved people, murdered people and performed horrific experiments. While I let him live Avernus was most definitely not benevolent.

#169
IanPolaris

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Marionetten wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

There is no in game evidence that blood magic creates inherent corruption. None.

Except for the fact that it was created and taught by demons. Which is a pretty big deal. A blood mage might have the best of intentions but I find it exceedingly hard to believe that there are no hidden fees considering the source.


It was originally taught by demons not necessarily created by them, and even so that doesn't ipso facto make it corrupt.  However, the fact that demons teach it means that knowledge of bloodmagic can not be completely supressed so regulating it seems a much wiser option (but the Chantry doesn't want to hear that).

-Polaris

#170
Eclipse_9990

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Marionetten wrote...

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

Avernus is pretty much the only one who can continue his research, or at least to the extent that is planned. Before Avernus the wardens only abilities were sensing darkspawn, and destroying an archdemons soul. Thats useful but not overly practical, in actually killing them. As for the people dieing thing.. Their deaths were necessary, I highly doubt he was killing them for his own amusement.
Think about it this way. You gotta break a few eggs to make an omelette(Calm down, I'm only kidding :P). Seriously though, his research is very important, and it seems stupid to stop it when its potential good vastly outweighs the evil needed to complete it.

Not a very benevolent viewpoint, is it?

Avernus was a pragmatist through and through. He didn't concern himself with good or evil. He only concerned himself with making sure that the wardens had the biggest gun. To achieve his aims he enslaved people, murdered people and performed horrific experiments. While I let him live Avernus was most definitely not benevolent.


I've never claimed to be benevolent at all. I'm a good person. I like being a good person. It feels good to be a good person. But I'm not blind. I'd accept even the most evil act, if it led to the greatest good..

The end always justifies the means. For the greater good people. For the greater good... 

Modifié par Eclipse_9990, 05 février 2011 - 12:57 .


#171
AlexXIV

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Eclipse_9990 wrote...

Marionetten wrote...

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

Avernus is pretty much the only one who can continue his research, or at least to the extent that is planned. Before Avernus the wardens only abilities were sensing darkspawn, and destroying an archdemons soul. Thats useful but not overly practical, in actually killing them. As for the people dieing thing.. Their deaths were necessary, I highly doubt he was killing them for his own amusement.
Think about it this way. You gotta break a few eggs to make an omelette(Calm down, I'm only kidding :P). Seriously though, his research is very important, and it seems stupid to stop it when its potential good vastly outweighs the evil needed to complete it.

Not a very benevolent viewpoint, is it?

Avernus was a pragmatist through and through. He didn't concern himself with good or evil. He only concerned himself with making sure that the wardens had the biggest gun. To achieve his aims he enslaved people, murdered people and performed horrific experiments. While I let him live Avernus was most definitely not benevolent.


I've never claimed to be benevolent at all. I'm a good person. I like being a good person. It feels good to be a good person. But I'm not blind. I'd accept even the most evil act, if it led to the greatest good..

The end always justifies the means. For the greater good people. For the greater good... 


Then you are a greater person than I. If I was to decide to sacrifice my loved ones to save the world I would probably let the world go to hell and save my loved ones. So you people better hope I never have to make this choice. Posted Image

Modifié par AlexXIV, 05 février 2011 - 12:59 .


#172
IanPolaris

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Ecaiki wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

It would be a resort though.  Farmers flood out rodents every year btw and the rodents are just as dead.  Frankly you are "saving the rabbit from the fox" when you take your state position to it's full logical conclusion, and yes it's ridiculous.  As for "not taking life unless needed" there is nothing about bloodmagic that requires you to take life.  It requires life energy.  So does a blood transfusion.

Don't know where you pulled that idea from, the logic I used doesn't lead there, at all.


Sure it does.  If you value all life equally and object to any life being spent, then you are morally obligated to save the rabbit from that evil fox.  Seriously, that is the logical extension of everything you've stated.  Sorry if that doesn't suit you, but it is.

Blood magic requires life to fuel it.  Sure some abilities don't require a full life sacrifice, but some more powerful spells (like the one Jowan would have used to save Conner) that do.  A blood transfusion is not the same thing.


Actually it is.  A blood transfusion is a direct injection of someone else's life energy (blood) in order to save a person whose vitality (blood) is at critically low levels.  In fact using bloodmagic to heal can be thought of in game terms of exactly that:  A blood transfusion from you (the life energy donor) to the target (the life energy recipient).

And you get to determing how one properly should "earn" to eat their meat?  Please.

It's the same logical extension of your stated position and it's silly.  All life requires death to survive.  Even vetegarians.  It's an instrinsic consequence of the second law of thermodynamics.  That being so, no all life is equally precious.  Human life >> Animal life, and bloodmagic doesn't even require life to work.  It requires life energy which need not equate to death.

Of course not, I'm not a god.  However nature has determined that earning one's meat involves catching and killing something.  If you can't do that then you don't deserve it.


Not always.  You can trap, you can get others to do it for you, etc.  All these are found in nature (and not just with human beings).  Expand your horizens.

Not true, a herbivore (to extend this to the animal kingdom) can eat leaves, or fruit, both of which don't require the death of the providing plant.  In fact most plants want their fruit eaten, as it spreads their seeds (along with free "nourishment") to other parts of the area.


Sure it does in the same way you claim that bloodmagic does.  The plant had to use it's life energy to make those leaves and fruit, and the cells in those leaves and fruits are most assuredly dead after you digest them (except for perhaps the seeds that are designed to withstand this of course).  That doesn't make it evil but it is a fact of life.  Furthermore even plants get their energy from the sun which is dying as we speak (abeit over the couse of billions of years but it is) to supply that energy. It's all a consequence of the second law of thermodynamics.

You're deluding yourself if you think life and life energy can be seperated like that, they are one and the same and blood magic requires it to function.


Except modern blood transfusions and even your eample of fruit and leaves provide direct evidence that you can in fact seperate life-energy from life in the sense that blood magic doesn't have to kill anyone.

-Polaris

#173
AlexXIV

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Also about the 'bloodmagic is fueld by life force' thing. There is another thing that feeds of life. We. Our survival depends on consuming living things. Or at least things that used to live before we cook them.

#174
IanPolaris

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Marionetten wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

The problem with 'forbidden lore' is that even if you forbid it, people will find a way to learn it from some other source. It would probably be better to let people study it under controlled circumstances and with all the necessary precautions.

This is true. Blood magic is far more dangerous as a forbidden art peddled by demons than it would be as a recognized school. Not only could they explore the art itself without being influced by demons but they could also explore countermeasures.

Unfortunately, I don't foresee that ever happening as long as the chantry remains in control.


Wilhelm of Honneth in his letter to FIrst Enchater Arlen complains bitterly about this very point.  His plainitive point (and it's well taken) is this:  How are mages supposed to protect themselves from possession (and presumably mind-control) if the Chantry forbids all research into it.  Even the Chantry hero Adralla was a Tevinter Bloodmage that performed decades of bloodmagic research into mindcontroll to make the litany...and it's a point the Chantry invariably glosses over....to the point where Wynne incorrectly calls her a bard.  She was not.  She was a bloodmage.

-Polaris

#175
AlexXIV

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IanPolaris wrote...

Marionetten wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

The problem with 'forbidden lore' is that even if you forbid it, people will find a way to learn it from some other source. It would probably be better to let people study it under controlled circumstances and with all the necessary precautions.

This is true. Blood magic is far more dangerous as a forbidden art peddled by demons than it would be as a recognized school. Not only could they explore the art itself without being influced by demons but they could also explore countermeasures.

Unfortunately, I don't foresee that ever happening as long as the chantry remains in control.


Wilhelm of Honneth in his letter to FIrst Enchater Arlen complains bitterly about this very point.  His plainitive point (and it's well taken) is this:  How are mages supposed to protect themselves from possession (and presumably mind-control) if the Chantry forbids all research into it.  Even the Chantry hero Adralla was a Tevinter Bloodmage that performed decades of bloodmagic research into mindcontroll to make the litany...and it's a point the Chantry invariably glosses over....to the point where Wynne incorrectly calls her a bard.  She was not.  She was a bloodmage.

-Polaris


Funny, isn't it? Can't wait to find out that even Andraste was a bloodmage Posted Image