363 réponses à ce sujet

[AlexXIV]

jaikss wrote...

bsbcaer wrote...


just a little bit from the description from the DA Wiki:

In
the contemporary world, blood magic is described as being one of the
more "sinister" types of magic. Blood magic is the magical practice of
using blood, life itself, as a potent fuel for magical spells. This life
may be supplied by the mage, or by willing or unwilling sacrifices. It
lets the mage control the minds of others as well as use their very own
life force to fuel their power. This practice is so rare in Thedas now
that it can now only be learned from contacting a demon, with the risk
of becoming an abomination.

In particular, I'd like to point you towards the last sentence of the description

The last sentence is actually incorrect;You can learn blood magic through a tome in Awakening.

You could probably learn it from anyone who knows enough to teach it. If of course blood magic is forbidden the only people who can teach you are apostates and demons.

[AlexXIV]

bsbcaer wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Ecaiki wrote...
Except blood mages only heal themselves, they are basically vampires.
 

No. For once vampires are cursed creatures driven by an unholy hunger. At least the classic vampires are. Also bloodmages heal like normal people, and eat and drink like normal people. True is that their magic requires blood as a source, they use it like others use lyrium. Also they don't heal themselves with bloodmagic. They heal themselves with healing magic, they just can use blood as a replacement for lyrium if they are low on mana.

Also if one human dies because they need their blood and they manage to save hundrets by that, how was that a bad choice? Questionable? Yes. But you can't beat a blight with philosphy lectures.

You really have to take a look at the blood mage specialization again...Any healing effects (while blood magic is active) only operate at 10% efficiency (that is 90% of the healing doesn't work), whereas blood sacrifice is a much more efficient means of healing.  If you, as a blood mage, had to chose, would you choose to use healing magic on yourself or blood sacrifice?

I wouldn't use blood magic at all. It's supposed to be more powerful according to lore, but I don't find it particularly more powerful in the game. Probably because they balanced it to other classes. What is powerful is the healer/bloodmage combo because you can heal without using mana. But I'd rather go with lore than game mechanics to judge on things because gamemechanics sometimes are just self sufficient and don't make much sense.

[bsbcaer]

TJPags wrote...

And honestly, if I use my own blood, is that anyone's choice but mine?  I mean, it's my blood, just like it's my mana.  If I want to use my mana to cast fireball rather than rock skin, that's okay.  But if I want to use my blood to power a healing spell, that's bad?

if I use the blood of a willing person, why is that bad?  People today give blood all the time - is that evil?  My companion, in a battle for our lives, offers his blood to power my spells so I can save us.  We both live - I don't kill him.  Why is that inherently evil? 

Simply put, what's to stop you from taking and using the blood of an unwilling person? 

Let's put ourselves in a morally grey situation for a second.  You're a blood mage, you're walking out of a hallway, when you're confronted by authorities (in this case Ser Cauthrien) and told that you're under arrest.  Using blood magic against creatures such as Dark Spawn is one thing, you can justify it as defending a greater good.  But how do you justify using it against someone who is acting under mistaken knowledge, but with the authority of the state behind her?

[bsbcaer]

hhh89 wrote...

@bsbcaer:Sorry, I don't get your point. Are you agreeing or arguing with me?

Really, it all depends if you think that blood magic corrupts the user or not...if the former, then I agree with you; if the latter, Im arguing with you.

Basically, Im arguing against the position that blood magic is inherently a "neutral tool"

[Dave of Canada]

jaikss wrote...

The last sentence is actually incorrect;You can learn blood magic through a tome in Awakening.

Really? That's odd, I learned it through siding with the Baroness.

[jaikss]

bsbcaer wrote...

TJPags wrote...

And honestly, if I use my own blood, is that anyone's choice but mine?  I mean, it's my blood, just like it's my mana.  If I want to use my mana to cast fireball rather than rock skin, that's okay.  But if I want to use my blood to power a healing spell, that's bad?

if I use the blood of a willing person, why is that bad?  People today give blood all the time - is that evil?  My companion, in a battle for our lives, offers his blood to power my spells so I can save us.  We both live - I don't kill him.  Why is that inherently evil? 

Simply put, what's to stop you from taking and using the blood of an unwilling person? 

Let's put ourselves in a morally grey situation for a second.  You're a blood mage, you're walking out of a hallway, when you're confronted by authorities (in this case Ser Cauthrien) and told that you're under arrest.  Using blood magic against creatures such as Dark Spawn is one thing, you can justify it as defending a greater good.  But how do you justify using it against someone who is acting under mistaken knowledge, but with the authority of the state behind her?

Same thing stopping me from turning the said unwilling person into a pile of ash.
In both your examples its a matter of an individual rather than blood magic itself.

In your latter example,there is as much justification to using blood magic against the authorities "acting under mistaken knowledge" as there is to chopping their heads off with an axe.Again,an individuals choise to resist arrest,the blood magic merely being a tool used by the said individual.

Modifié par jaikss, 05 février 2011 - 05:46 .

[IanPolaris]

Ecaiki wrote...

Actually it is.  A blood transfusion is a direct injection of someone else's life energy (blood) in order to save a person whose vitality (blood) is at critically low levels.  In fact using bloodmagic to heal can be thought of in game terms of exactly that:  A blood transfusion from you (the life energy donor) to the target (the life energy recipient).

Except blood mages only heal themselves, they are basically vampires.

It's still not right to compare a blood transfusion to what is essentually a battery that only runs on blood.

Actually you are almost totally wrong on this.  Bloodmages can heal others just fine and use healing spells on others just fine.  What they can't do is heal themselves while using blood rather than mana to power their spells, and that is very much like a blood transfusion.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

ReallyRue wrote...

The only way to learn blood magic in the game is by exchanging Connor in a deal with a demon. If there are less-evil methods of learning it, then I'd say it's not inherently evil, and the person who uses it isn't automatically bad. Jowan doesn't seem like an evil person, just an idiotic one. It depends on whose hands the magic is in.
Tbh, I think fewer mages would be interested in blood magic if the Chantry didn't drive them to desperate measures.

That is incorrect.  You can side with the Baroness in DAA (which is another evil choice) to get bloodmagic.  You can buy a book in the Crown and Lion in Amaranthine and learn it that way.  In DAO, you can force the demon to teach you bloodmagic in exchange of letting her live (and she must leave Conner immediately and never return).  This is not an evil option.  It also requires a very high Intimidate check (over 100 I think).

-Polaris

[jaikss]

Dave of Canada wrote...

jaikss wrote...

The last sentence is actually incorrect;You can learn blood magic through a tome in Awakening.

Really? That's odd, I learned it through siding with the Baroness.

Ive usually picked it up long before Blackmarsh so I wouldnt know,but you can also buy the manual from Amaranthine I believe.

Point was that consorting with demons is not the only way to learn it as stated by the wiki quote.

[IanPolaris]

bsbcaer wrote...

TJPags wrote...

And honestly, if I use my own blood, is that anyone's choice but mine?  I mean, it's my blood, just like it's my mana.  If I want to use my mana to cast fireball rather than rock skin, that's okay.  But if I want to use my blood to power a healing spell, that's bad?

if I use the blood of a willing person, why is that bad?  People today give blood all the time - is that evil?  My companion, in a battle for our lives, offers his blood to power my spells so I can save us.  We both live - I don't kill him.  Why is that inherently evil? 

Simply put, what's to stop you from taking and using the blood of an unwilling person? 

The same thing that stops you from shoving sharped steel up their arses.  Really, a spell that sucks blood from an enemy (or boild blood from an enemy) is no different from one that incinterates them, gives them nightmares, freezes them, etc.

Let's put ourselves in a morally grey situation for a second.  You're a blood mage, you're walking out of a hallway, when you're confronted by authorities (in this case Ser Cauthrien) and told that you're under arrest.  Using blood magic against creatures such as Dark Spawn is one thing, you can justify it as defending a greater good.  But how do you justify using it against someone who is acting under mistaken knowledge, but with the authority of the state behind her?

Law of stupid.  I have every reason to think that Loghain is going to kill me in whch case the Darkspawn win.  Ends justify the means for a grey warden.  I call it the law of stupid because Ser Cauthrien is stupid enough to get in between a Grey Warden and fighting Darkspawn, and such stupidity deserves the Darwin award.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

As for the bloodmagic school in the DA game being evil, I'd say it's no more so than the entire Entropy school and perhaps less.



-Polaris

[bsbcaer]

AlexXIV wrote...

bsbcaer wrote...

-- Ok...now we're using blood magic to heal oneself.  You are choosing to take the lifeforce of an ally, obstensibly a friend, into your own to heal yourself instead of using convential healing (spells, poultices, etc.)  Doesn't seem that it's a "noble tool" there, seems rather selfish.

-- Finally, we're talking about a spell that forcibly controls another to act under the power of the Mage while doing severe damage.  I don't know about you, but it seems to me that the forcible invasion of another's mind can be equated to a form of mental rape. 

You know, if you want to see something as a bad thing then by all means do. Comparing mind control to rape is far off. If the spell was called 'charm person' and was not bloodmagic you probably wouldn't even come up with this ridiculous anology. Saying that because I played plenty RPGs where mind control is pretty usual and nobody goes around calling it rape..

Regarding the first point...The mage is taking physical control of his/her target, not convincing (charming) the person into fighting for him/her.  How is this not an invasion of the person's self?  With "charm person" (the example you used), you're not forcibly controlling the person mentally or physically...in fact, here's the description of the spell:

Source:  http://www.dandwiki....ki/Charm_Person

The spell does not enable you to control the charmed person as if it were an automaton, but it perceives your words and actions in the most favorable way. You can try to give the subject orders, but you must win an opposed Charisma check to convince it to do anything it wouldn’t ordinarily do. (Retries are not allowed.) An affected creature never obeys suicidal or obviously harmful orders, but it might be convinced that something very dangerous is worth doing. Any act by you or your apparent allies that threatens the charmed person breaks the spell. You must speak the person’s language to communicate your commands, or else be good at pantomiming.

As you can tell, you're not controlling the person physically or mentally.  With the DA:O spell "blood control," you are actually controlling the person through their blood.  Unless they break the spell or the spell duration ends, there is no way for them to disobey the command.  When asked to jump off a bridge, a charmed person would go "the hell you say!", while someone under blood control would take a header off the bridge.

AlexXIV wrote...

And to the self heal. If you stood next to Leliana and she is pretty healthy and you are about to die I am sure she wouldn't mind if you'd use her to stay alive. Potential death doesn't mean certain death. It means there could be a situation where someone dies, I guess when the one you draw blood of is already pretty weakened.

Im sure that you would at least agree that the self healing through blood magic would (or should) be the heal of last resort in this situation...

[bsbcaer]

jaikss wrote...

bsbcaer wrote...


just a little bit from the description from the DA Wiki:

In
the contemporary world, blood magic is described as being one of the
more "sinister" types of magic. Blood magic is the magical practice of
using blood, life itself, as a potent fuel for magical spells. This life
may be supplied by the mage, or by willing or unwilling sacrifices. It
lets the mage control the minds of others as well as use their very own
life force to fuel their power. This practice is so rare in Thedas now
that it can now only be learned from contacting a demon, with the risk
of becoming an abomination.

In particular, I'd like to point you towards the last sentence of the description

The last sentence is actually incorrect;You can learn blood magic through a tome in Awakening.

Yes, but Im sure that you would agree that they (likely) added it as a means to allow players who either missed the specialization or chose not to take the specialization in the first game the specialization

[bsbcaer]

jaikss wrote...

bsbcaer wrote...

TJPags wrote...

And honestly, if I use my own blood, is that anyone's choice but mine?  I mean, it's my blood, just like it's my mana.  If I want to use my mana to cast fireball rather than rock skin, that's okay.  But if I want to use my blood to power a healing spell, that's bad?

if I use the blood of a willing person, why is that bad?  People today give blood all the time - is that evil?  My companion, in a battle for our lives, offers his blood to power my spells so I can save us.  We both live - I don't kill him.  Why is that inherently evil? 

Simply put, what's to stop you from taking and using the blood of an unwilling person? 

Let's put ourselves in a morally grey situation for a second.  You're a blood mage, you're walking out of a hallway, when you're confronted by authorities (in this case Ser Cauthrien) and told that you're under arrest.  Using blood magic against creatures such as Dark Spawn is one thing, you can justify it as defending a greater good.  But how do you justify using it against someone who is acting under mistaken knowledge, but with the authority of the state behind her?

Same thing stopping me from turning the said unwilling person into a pile of ash.
In both your examples its a matter of an individual rather than blood magic itself.

In your latter example,there is as much justification to using blood magic against the authorities "acting under mistaken knowledge" as there is to chopping their heads off with an axe.Again,an individuals choise to resist arrest,the blood magic merely being a tool used by the said individual.

So you're saying that taking the life force, boiling the blood, and controlling the mind of any human adversary is the moral equivilent of doing the same with darkspawn?

[AlexXIV]

What about the jedi mind trick then? They even do it to people who are not their enemy. So I can't see how that's less evil than taking control of an enemy instead of choping his head off. If you say mind control is rape then killing an opponent is murder. So we should then discuss what of both is worse? I mean if you take over someone's mind you can release it but you can't just put the head back on the neck and pretend as if nothing happened.

[bsbcaer]

AlexXIV wrote...

What about the jedi mind trick then? They even do it to people who are not their enemy. So I can't see how that's less evil than taking control of an enemy instead of choping his head off. If you say mind control is rape then killing an opponent is murder. So we should then discuss what of both is worse? I mean if you take over someone's mind you can release it but you can't just put the head back on the neck and pretend as if nothing happened.

Alright, lets look at the most famous example of the mind trick:  Driving into Tatooine.  In that scenario, Obi-wan is using the mind trick to convince the stormtrooper that "these aren't the droids you're looking for."  For me, that's pretty damn close to the example of charm person which we used.  Now, had Obi-Wan decided to control the trooper into pulling out a thermal detonator, running into the nearest barracks, and blowing it to hell, that would probably be something that he wouldn't do under his own volition.

the "killing an opponent is murder" point:  Assuming we're in a situation where we're talking of a steel on steel situation.  In this situation, you're talking more skill vs. skill than anything else and if you manage to be skillful or lucky enough to survive a kill or be killed situation like that, then I don't see any authorities (in Thedas) coming up and arresting you for murder.

Let me simply put it this way.  Put yourself in the shoes of someone who has been mentally controlled and dominated to do something you would not wish to do.  Hypothetically, lets say (somehow) someone controlled your body and forced you to kill your mother.  You have all your senses, you are completely aware, yet you cannot do anything to stop the actions from taking place.  Would you not feel a great sense of violation?

[The Interloper]

Blood Mages have nothing on HIV mages. Now those guys are bastards.

[IanPolaris]

bsbcaer wrote...

So you're saying that taking the life force, boiling the blood, and controlling the mind of any human adversary is the moral equivilent of doing the same with darkspawn?

No, he is saying he has the moral right to use bloodmagic in clear self-defense including (if necessary) controlling the mind of a human adversary to defend yourself.

He's right.  All people have an inherent right to defend themselves.

-Polaris

[jaikss]

bsbcaer wrote...

jaikss wrote...

bsbcaer wrote...

TJPags wrote...

And honestly, if I use my own blood, is that anyone's choice but mine?  I mean, it's my blood, just like it's my mana.  If I want to use my mana to cast fireball rather than rock skin, that's okay.  But if I want to use my blood to power a healing spell, that's bad?

if I use the blood of a willing person, why is that bad?  People today give blood all the time - is that evil?  My companion, in a battle for our lives, offers his blood to power my spells so I can save us.  We both live - I don't kill him.  Why is that inherently evil? 

Simply put, what's to stop you from taking and using the blood of an unwilling person? 

Let's put ourselves in a morally grey situation for a second.  You're a blood mage, you're walking out of a hallway, when you're confronted by authorities (in this case Ser Cauthrien) and told that you're under arrest.  Using blood magic against creatures such as Dark Spawn is one thing, you can justify it as defending a greater good.  But how do you justify using it against someone who is acting under mistaken knowledge, but with the authority of the state behind her?

Same thing stopping me from turning the said unwilling person into a pile of ash.
In both your examples its a matter of an individual rather than blood magic itself.

In your latter example,there is as much justification to using blood magic against the authorities "acting under mistaken knowledge" as there is to chopping their heads off with an axe.Again,an individuals choise to resist arrest,the blood magic merely being a tool used by the said individual.

So you're saying that taking the life force, boiling the blood, and controlling the mind of any human adversary is the moral equivilent of doing the same with darkspawn?

No,what im saying is someone using blood magic to do evil things(not that your scenario is necessarily evil) does not make blood magic in itself evil,just the person using it to do the said evil things.Just as a gun in the hands of a mass murderer does not make guns evil.

The mind control is an interesting thing though now that you bring it up,to use the Ser Cauthrien encounter you mentioned earlier as an example,which one is really the more "evil" outcome;to use mind control to make Ser Cauthrien allow you to pass peacefully,sparing in the process the lives of her and her men,or kill her and all her men because they refuse to let you pass?

Modifié par jaikss, 05 février 2011 - 06:13 .

[IanPolaris]

bsbcaer wrote...

Im sure that you would at least agree that the self healing through blood magic would (or should) be the heal of last resort in this situation...

Use a pet (such as a summoned wolf or bear) to heal yourself.  It's already accepted game lore that dogs are used to shield human warriors and this seems morally no different.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

I think Ser Cauthrien would prefer being mind controlled for a brief period and living rather than dying ignobally in Howe's dingy castle in a pool of blood...if not for herself than at least for her men. Of course that's an option you can't take in the actual game (I've tried).



Really if anyone has Ser Cauthrien's blood on their hands it's Queen Anora who could use her position to permit you to leave and stop all bloodshed but she double-crosses you instead.



-Polaris

[AlexXIV]

bsbcaer wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

What about the jedi mind trick then? They even do it to people who are not their enemy. So I can't see how that's less evil than taking control of an enemy instead of choping his head off. If you say mind control is rape then killing an opponent is murder. So we should then discuss what of both is worse? I mean if you take over someone's mind you can release it but you can't just put the head back on the neck and pretend as if nothing happened.

Alright, lets look at the most famous example of the mind trick:  Driving into Tatooine.  In that scenario, Obi-wan is using the mind trick to convince the stormtrooper that "these aren't the droids you're looking for."  For me, that's pretty damn close to the example of charm person which we used.  Now, had Obi-Wan decided to control the trooper into pulling out a thermal detonator, running into the nearest barracks, and blowing it to hell, that would probably be something that he wouldn't do under his own volition.

the "killing an opponent is murder" point:  Assuming we're in a situation where we're talking of a steel on steel situation.  In this situation, you're talking more skill vs. skill than anything else and if you manage to be skillful or lucky enough to survive a kill or be killed situation like that, then I don't see any authorities (in Thedas) coming up and arresting you for murder.

Let me simply put it this way.  Put yourself in the shoes of someone who has been mentally controlled and dominated to do something you would not wish to do.  Hypothetically, lets say (somehow) someone controlled your body and forced you to kill your mother.  You have all your senses, you are completely aware, yet you cannot do anything to stop the actions from taking place.  Would you not feel a great sense of violation?

Well you kinda admit it depends on the situation and not on the actual weapon. You can do cruel things with blood magic, no doubt. But you can also not do it even if you are a bloodmage. And you can do cruel things with a spoon. Or you can just eat your soup.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 05 février 2011 - 06:16 .

[bsbcaer]

IanPolaris wrote...

bsbcaer wrote...

Im sure that you would at least agree that the self healing through blood magic would (or should) be the heal of last resort in this situation...

Use a pet (such as a summoned wolf or bear) to heal yourself.  It's already accepted game lore that dogs are used to shield human warriors and this seems morally no different.

-Polaris

Yeah, but the situation described simply had the blood mage and Leliana.  So, as I said, I would hope that you would at least agree that self-healing through blood magic would (or should) be the heal of last resort in this situation...

[bsbcaer]

AlexXIV wrote...

bsbcaer wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

What about the jedi mind trick then? They even do it to people who are not their enemy. So I can't see how that's less evil than taking control of an enemy instead of choping his head off. If you say mind control is rape then killing an opponent is murder. So we should then discuss what of both is worse? I mean if you take over someone's mind you can release it but you can't just put the head back on the neck and pretend as if nothing happened.

Alright, lets look at the most famous example of the mind trick:  Driving into Tatooine.  In that scenario, Obi-wan is using the mind trick to convince the stormtrooper that "these aren't the droids you're looking for."  For me, that's pretty damn close to the example of charm person which we used.  Now, had Obi-Wan decided to control the trooper into pulling out a thermal detonator, running into the nearest barracks, and blowing it to hell, that would probably be something that he wouldn't do under his own volition.

the "killing an opponent is murder" point:  Assuming we're in a situation where we're talking of a steel on steel situation.  In this situation, you're talking more skill vs. skill than anything else and if you manage to be skillful or lucky enough to survive a kill or be killed situation like that, then I don't see any authorities (in Thedas) coming up and arresting you for murder.

Let me simply put it this way.  Put yourself in the shoes of someone who has been mentally controlled and dominated to do something you would not wish to do.  Hypothetically, lets say (somehow) someone controlled your body and forced you to kill your mother.  You have all your senses, you are completely aware, yet you cannot do anything to stop the actions from taking place.  Would you not feel a great sense of violation?

Well you kinda admit it depends on the situation and not on the actual weapon. You can do cruel things with blood magic, no doubt. But you can also not do it even if you are a bloodmage. And you can do cruel things with a spoon. Or you can just eat your soup.

First, I did kind of notice that you avoided answering my hypothetical situation there   Or, if you prefer, allow me to change my hypothetical to something less violent.  You're spending your day minding your own business, playing all your favourite bioware games.  Suddenly, you lose complete control of your body, yet remain completely aware.  You find yourself controlled to walk down to the nearest soup kitchen and serve soup for the rest of the day, even though you want to sit on your tail playing video games.  Would you not have a sense of violation that you have no control of your body and was forced to do something that you wouldn't have considered doing?

Second:  Explicitly taking out the possibility of learning the specialization via books (I hope that we can all agree that learning the specialization this way is a more mechanical, than lore, device), I find it interesting that people tend to avoid the issue of the means of acquiring such a specialization in DA:O (via the desire demon) or via the Baronness in DA:A.  Not exactly the purest of sources.  Even if you intimidate the desire demon into giving you the specialization, doesn't the source of the power corrupt any and all good done by the power?

Third:  People are going around saying that so much good can be done through blood magic, but I don't remember anything in either game (note: have not read the books) where blood magic explicitly did something good.

[jaikss]

bsbcaer wrote...

Third:  People are going around saying that so much good can be done
through blood magic, but I don't remember anything in either game
(note: have not read the books) where blood magic explicitly did
something good.

In my opinion allowing a mother to save her child is a pretty "good" thing.