27 réponses à ce sujet

[Stanley Woo]

Realranger55 wrote...
True, it's just not how they used to do it.

We also used to have to cut forever any content that was nearly ready, or just about ready for prime time but didn't meet quality standard. You know a lot of that DLC content you see? You wouldn't have seen it at all back then.

We also used ahve to wait 6-8 months for an expansion to be developed. nowadays, in 8 months, no one remembers who you were and no one's playing your game anymore. DLC could be considered tiny micro-expansions that come out more often, keeping people interested in your game.

You know what else we used to do? Handwrite letters and wait a few weeks if we wanted to talk to someone in another country. Or dial them up on a rotary phone. You'll note that's changed as well. I used to be able to buy shoes for $15, and we wore onions on our belts, because that was the style at the time.

Using "that's not how they used to do it" as a reason for disliking something is a little silly, and more than a little curmudgeonly. I should know. I'm a curmudgeon.

[Stanley Woo]

Falls Edge wrote...
This means you cannot back out if you hear the game is glitched, if any disaster occurs you have to wait until the company recieves enough complaints to 'return' defective models, thus you can essentially, if something bad happens to your product be unable to return it, or have to pay for a warranty to make sure the product can be returned in the event of damage.

Incorrect. Software works slightly differently than non-software products regardless of whether there is a pre-order, DLC, or not. Many retailers do accept returns or exchanges for store credit, and publishers will generally accept returns or exchanges for the warranty period of 90 days. Pre-orders generally may be cancelled at any time, though this is a retailer policy and not a developer/publisher policy.

Not sure where you're getting your information from, but I would view that source wtih suspicion and take extra care when quoting from it.

If the game plops, is incredibly glitchy, you fall down on your disc on the way home you're officially screwed.

Thisi s the case with any product. One you leave the store, it is your responsibility to care for it. Neither the retailer, developer, or publisher, has anything to do wtih you falling, the disc breaking in the fall, or the disc rolling into an open sewer opening after you fall, your game box being run over by a herd of rampaging cattle, or you throwing the box in front of a speeding train.

It's a part of negotiation, you are taking a risk for no reason except the possible gamble of getting moar fwee stwuff. Stuff that they specifically designed so that you would preorder it, the dlc for sebastion however is different, he's already been designed he is close or near complete, and they're charging you for him because they can instead of any real reason.

Infact if you want to get into boring ol' history you can ask me about the Mass effect toggle glitch that bioware didn't fix for 3 months after release.

there is no negotiation involved or required. We release a product for sale. At the point of sale, you choose whether you wish to purchase that product at the price requested. If you do, you exchange money for the product. If you do not, no harm, no foul.

DLC is a way to make said product shinier and more attractive for purchase. You may not have wanted the product, but what if it also included a SHINY? Again, at the point of purchase, you choose whether you wish to purchase that product at the price requested. If you do, you exchange money for the product. If you do not, no harm, no foul.

But what if that product could be purchased earlier and came with several SHINIES and a ZOMG? Well, in that case (and stop me if you've heard this one), at the point of purchase, you choose whether you wish to purchase that product at the price requested. If you do, you exchange money for the product. If you do not, no harm, no foul.

did you notice any kind of pattern there? Each and every time, the consumer makes a choice. He can say yes or no for whatever reason he likes. the price is clearly stated, he is under no duress, and there is no penalty for either choice. Not really sure where the "ripping off" or "milking" arguments are coming from.

EDIT: Also, did I mention the game is also available without the DLC? In order to get that version, at the point of purchase...

Modifié par Stanley Woo, 04 février 2011 - 04:53 .

[Stanley Woo]

Falls Edge wrote...
I'm just saying that I don't see the point in the dlc if it could be put in everyones game before the game comes out.

When it comes to games development, the game has to be finished at some point long before it appears on store shelves. The content on that disc has to be finalized and the bejeebers has to be tested out of it. Nothing can change on that disc or else a lot of work has to be re-done to get it ready for things like final stage testing, certification and submission.

During this point of "nothing can change on the disc," people who are twiddling their thumbs otherwise can be working on things like DLC and day 1 patches, whatever the studio decides to do. Maybe both, who knows what they have time and manpower for? It's at this time that DLC can be made, because even after all the above is done, the game has to be manufactured and distributed to all the retailers. You're looking at anywhere from a few weeks to a couple of months where nothing on that disc can be modified.

The dlc for sebastion is completed right now, why won't they put it into the game?

Is it? I suppose you would know better than the folks actually working on our game and our DLC content, wouldn't you? downloadable content is called downloadable content because it doesn't have to appear on that disc whose contents cannot be altered. It just has to be available for download (hence "downloadable content") when the game is released. such content, because it doesn't have to appear on the disc, whose contents can't be touched, also doesn't have to go through as much time in certification and submission.

I just don't understand the concept of having to pay extra for extra content before a game is out that has been completed and ready to go already.

Nor does it sound like you're trying to understand, but hopefully, my explanations can open up this mysterious world of videogame development for you a little. it's an esoteric process, and few people realyl understand it until and unless they're a part of it. I certainly wouldn't have known if I didn't start working here.

[Stanley Woo]

Realranger55 wrote...
Right, its up to the consumer to purchase the dlc. Remember Levi Dryden, hangin out in your party camp? I really wanted to finish that conversation with him, so I sucked it up and payed for it. 
The question is, is it really good practice to do things like  add dlc, then taunt the people who don't feel like paying for it? If you are going to stick something in the game, might as well make it available to everyone at release.

And any company that puts ads on television or on the radio might as well give you free stuff, right? you call it taunting, I call it yet another incentive to purchase the DLC. He was an optional conversation to get an optional quest, just like some of the quest zones in Lord of the Rings Online require payment to unlock. If I want to complete those quests, I'll choose to pay for them. If I don't need to do them that badly, I'll think twice. If I don't want them, I won't pay for them at all. As always, it is my choice.

[Stanley Woo]

mr_luga wrote...
I have a hard time beliving you coudnt fit a sword or something like that months before the game comes out -.-

Okay, smart guy. Let's play it your way. So we put those items into the game. now we need some small DLC items that can be easily made up and designed and tested for DLC incentives, so we do that. And... people ask why aren't those items in the base game, since they're so small.

Okay, le'ts play it their way. So we put those items into the game. Now we need some new small DLC items that can be easily made up and designed and tested for DLC incentives so we do that. And... people ask why aren't those items in the base game, since they're so small.

Okay, le'ts play it their way. So we put those items into the
game. Now we need some new small DLC items that can be easily made up and
designed and tested for DLC incentives so we do that. And... people ask why aren't those items in the base game, since they're so small. So you see a pattern here yet?

Okay, le'ts play it their way. So we put those items into the
game. Now we need some new small DLC items that can be easily made up and
designed and tested for DLC incentives so we do that. And... people ask
why aren't those items in the base game, since they're so small. Somewhere along the way, you'll have to accept that some of our work will have to go towards these little tiny DLC incentives.

[Stanley Woo]

Kileyan wrote...
I mostly wanted to respond to your comment about no one even knows who you are if you don't release DLC constantly. I find that hard to believe. Although only anecdotal, I don't know a single gamer that wouldn't rather have a hefty well thought out expansion, over the 20 minute DLC stuff, that often takes more time to download and aunthenticate than is does to play.

Don't discount my input because I criticize, but I think you are really wrong, I think people would freak out over an old school lenghty expansion and be fine without DLC.

I would never discount an opinion that merely disagrees with me, if that opinion is well presented, which yours is. I would counter with the sheer popularity of games today and just how many games are available for purchase between three giant consoles, a few different mobile markets, a couple of handhelds, online casual, social network games, platforms like Steam, GOG, and other digital distribution platforms. In 6 months without any content being released, even MMOs get a little stale.

Sure, some people prefer the less frequent, big expansion content model, but I'm not sure that's really an option anymore with the state of the industry as it is. there's a reason old-school is "old": because things have changed rather significantly over the last 10 years. Digital communication and storage has grown exponentially, and so has broadband internet in the home and console connectivity. In order to hold that audience, you need something to keep them interested in your game. For the most part, that something is frequent DLC, in my opinion.

[Stanley Woo]

mr_luga wrote...
Err.. How about at one point you just.. Stop making **** and just say "The game is done" <.<; Sounds like you guys need to chill  

We did, and then you criticized us and wondered why we couldn't put that DLC content into the main game.

It's a bit unnvering you guys think you feel you need to toss so much fluff around to get people to buy your games, have some faith, you're bioware

As I just finished mentioning to another community member, competition is fierce in the videogames industry and "faith" is no longer enough. Just look at our forums and you'll see people questioning their "faith" whenever they hear something about Dragon Age II that they don't like. Even this thread is evidence that people don't have "faith" in the way we do things.

[Stanley Woo]

Kinghoza wrote...
I'm "ok" if there's some minor items you could get when you pre-order, but cutting out a companion is just stupid - as if they want to encourage pirating.

We "cut Sebastian from the main game" the same way the quarter pounder burger from Mcdonald's "cut" the extra patty and cheese from the double quarter pounder with cheese, which is to say, not at all. This is also the same way car manufacturers "cut" power windows, chrome trim, DVD players, all wheel drive, satellite radio, and a couple of engine V's from their basic car models, which is to say, not at all.

Your personal preferences and tolerances do not dictate the desires of an entire market or the business decisions of game developers. Individual players are not going to agree with everything we do, and that's fine. this is taken into account during the decision-making process. We hope you'll come along for the ride, but if you choose not to, then maybe our next project will be more to your liking or maybe you'll give it a try later after reading reviews, or once your curiosity is piqued. Use of the "piracy" argument is specious and anecdotal, not to mention frowned upon in this community. Thank you.

[Stanley Woo]

1varangian wrote...

I find all the launch date DLC and excessively complicated and aggressive marketing really, really annoying.

Just box the #&%n game and put it on the shelf. If it's good it will sell without confusing tricks. Cutting content just to release it as a separate DLC is very questionable.

Someone hasn't read my pedantic diatribe in this thread about how DLC is usually developed. I encourage you to read it, as it addresses--whether you agree with it or not--your main concerns.

[Stanley Woo]

Stanley Woo wrote...

exactly, luckily I pre-ordered but if they had different characters and mission for different retailers, well that would really grind my gears.

not to mention, it would make testing the various combinations of content very difficult. i'm glad we're keeping it relatively simple!

[Stanley Woo]

bsbcaer wrote...

Mr. Woo

I know that you mentioned that the old-school method of expansions has gone the way of wearing onions on our belts, or the eskimos and oilers actually being good, so Im just wondering if (seeing how it's been said that there is not going to be any other editions other than the special and vanilla versions) at some point in the future the DLC will be collected and sold in a disk version?

Such decisions are not anywhere near my hands and I can't predict the future. I would also be reluctant to provide any answer which would be taken out of context and mutated into an "iron clad, signed in blood, cross his heart, but he proooooooooooooooomised" tenet several months down the line.

[Stanley Woo]

Sheanos wrote...
I think Bioware should also make some DLC that is intended for those of us that want more challenge, or are there too few of us to make it worthwhile? Just saying I'd feel more like pre-ordering if the bonus was an extra tough bonus boss instead of a free epic weapon...why can't we have both?

There is nothing stopping companies from releasing DLC that caters to different sections of the audience. On the other hand, there is also nothing obligating companies to do so.

[Stanley Woo]

Hate you, HTTP 404. You make the panda cry.

[Stanley Woo]

Melduran wrote...
Thank god there's so many of you to point out its a business plan WOW thank you I normaly do all my purchasing with wolf pelts so thank you for bringing us all up to speed on capitalism, and of course thank you for revealing any sort of critisism is just whining another valid lesson apparently everything is acceptable in this world and should be taken as is without question.

Re-read my contributions to this thread and please let me know where I have been patronizing, condescending, or dismissive of any of the complaints brought up here. Then please tell me what specific complaints or issues you still have that I have not addressed. i'm pretty sure I've been very thorough here.

I'm fine with questioning, and I'm fine with criticism, but as I've often said: if you cannot bear to hear people disagreeing with you, or if you believe there is only one correct answer (yours), or if you beleive you have the right to dictate how a company does things, then you're no longer questioning. You are demanding (and probably whining. The two are not wholly unrelated).

Your sarcasm and inability to respond in a civil manner aside, I look forward to your response.

[Stanley Woo]

Some off-topic chatter removed from thread.

[Stanley Woo]

I'll help you out, Falls Edge. i think more consumers need to take more rseponsibility for their own buying decisions, whether they are adults or "kids." Such responsibility means that, sometimes, you will buy something that you're not 100% satisfied with. not that it's defective or wrong in any way, you just don't like it. This is perfectly normal and a part of the learning process. The more experience you have with making purchasing decisions, the better you'll be able to deal with buying stuff you might not like.

You never have the right to never be disappointed. Consumer power is great, but you have to use it actively, not just hold it up as an ideal and expect everyone to cater to you.

EDIT: But we are definitely drifting off-topic now.

Modifié par Stanley Woo, 04 février 2011 - 11:27 .

[Stanley Woo]

Let's try one last time to get it back on topic, please. Thank you.

[Stanley Woo]

Lethys1 wrote...
many developers (and I am not saying Bioware necessarily) cut content from their product and make it available as DLC afterwards.

And how well did that DLC sell? How many consumers actively chose to buy that DLC to enhance their game experience, despite knowing it was on disc? They still made an active choice. Whether we agree or disagree with that choice is immaterial.

If a game costs $60, and DLC costs $10, it should have 1/6 the content of the original game.

Also immaterial. the prices of games and DLC are not based on the amonut of content, but on recouping the cost in creating that product.

An example of Dragon Age DLC which was particularly grimy was Warden's Keep; $7 for a very short mission and some new items, but that wasn't even what made me angry.  What made me angry was the party storage chest, something which a game company that put fans first (i.e. Stardock) would have patched into the game.  Even EA's own Battlefield BC2 gave multiple free maps and updates, so it boggles my mind that the same publisher wouldn't just give us the party storage.

This is you wanting something for nothing, as evidenced by your implied insult of bioWare as a company that doesn't put fans first and your assumption that because one company does a thing, all other companies should or must do the same. You are even incredulous that you didn't get something for free!

A strong criticism of DLC is that while the content may not have been cut from the original development, the content should have been there in the first place.  I am not going to claim that Warden's Keep or even any of the Dragon Age DLC should have been included in the first game, but Mass Effect 2's Lair of the Shadow Broker should definitely have been included in the original game.

"I wanted it for free in the main game" is hardly a strong criticism, and it completely ignores the realities of developer resource management, marketing schedules, and project planning.

I don't know how well Awakening did, but I certainly know that a good expansion can make a lot of money.  I also know that nobody would care about a lack of a steady stream of content if it were known that an expansion wold be released in 4-8 months, even longer.

Your innate knowledge is amazing. It is coming up with scenarios that acountants and strategic planners work for months to develop. Your two sentences here claim to do the work of entire marketing, project management, and accounting departments.

thank you for the work you put into your argument, but I'm afraid i'll have to disagree.

[Stanley Woo]

SammyJB17 wrote...
Sorry Mr.Woo for having to deal with all these people getting stuff for free. I just wanna say thanks for the DLC and main game. When it comes to Dragon Age, I take what I can get.

I appreciate the sentiment, thank you. Whether you are a DLC person or strictly a main game person, I hope you enjoy Dragon Age II.

[Stanley Woo]

magicwins wrote...
I'm sure you can think of alternatives to overpowered weapons. You could always try silly weapons, like the Wabbajack from Oblivion. Maybe it gives the opponent a frilly dress and makes him talk like a 6 year old girl. That would be fun . How about outfits? They don't even need to do anything special, they could just look great. Or things like Morrigan's voodoo doll? Maybe Hawke could have a pipe that he'd smoke for a bit and gain a bonus to some attribute.

Sure, those are all good suggestions.

I'm sure you guys have thought about all this, particularly since you made the Feastday pack, but I completely disagree with this 'spam them with SHINY weapons approach'. It really puts me off, because I'd like to be treated as someone who's a little less simplistic than 'ZOMG SHINY!' Like I said, if the shiny is unique, or fulfils a special role, I'm all for it, But adding a bunch of stat bonuses to a nice looking weapon and calling it awesome makes me feel like you guys don't really care what you throw at us.

We do care, but noted.

[Stanley Woo]

Realranger55 wrote...

Thanks a lot for all the responses Stan, it's really nice to actually get some input from dev's on issues like this. It really should be applauded that you take the time to debate issues like this with fans.

i'm crunching. The community provides a distraction when my eyes start to go buggy from playing Dragon Age II so much. so thank YOU.

[Stanley Woo]

Seifz wrote...
The problem I have is that developers and publishers decided to move away from expansion packs in favor of DLC and we, the customers, and paying more because of it.  You need to sell DLC at higher cost:content ratios than you would sell full games and expansion packs.  The end result is that we're paying more for less and that sucks for us.

Choosing not to buy it still costs you nothing more.

Sorry, but the party storage seems like something that was intentionally excluded from the main game so that it could be used as a selling point for DLC.  I have a very hard time believe that your QA process didn't return a huge number of "inventory management sucks in this game, we need a storage chest" long before the game went into its final phases.

Believe what you will.

DLC that actually adds something extra to the game is one thing.  Leliana's Song is an example of optional content.  DLC that contains major plot elements or core gameplay features shouldn't be DLC.  That includes Witch Hunt!  Now I understand that Witch Hunt might not have been planned from the beginning and it might have been something that you all thought up after the game was published and so you tried to find a way to get it out to us because you thought we'd like it.  However, I also understand that you could have saved up Golems and Witch Hunt, created some more content, and sold it all as a second expansion pack.  Expansion packs have much more value per dollar than DLC for customers.

Again, believe what you will. Many peiople against DLC will still come up with their own packaging that they will accept, which indicates to me that they want the content, they just don't want to pay what's being asked for it. Hindsight is, as always, 20/20.

Oh, come on.  You did just fine with expansions for many, many years.  Developers and publishers switched to DLC to make even more money from their customers.  What are the upsides for us?  Less content?  Higher costs?  Fewer developers and thus more bugs?  Where are we winning here?

And rotary-dial phones also worked for many years, as did pay-by-the-hour internet, CRT, leaded fuel, and non-unionized workforces. Things can and do change as technology makes it more feasible to do so. Where's your up side? Consoles can get expanded content as well as PCs can, more frequent game content updates,  content that can still be integrated into the main game story, retailer incentive items, and all without completely doing away with expansions.

It would be silly indeed for an industry to come up wtih a new business model to make less money from consumers, especially when games are so much more expensive to make.

And what happened to supporting DA:O with DLC and patches for two years, anyway?  You didn't even make one year!

But you were just complaining about DLC. You should be happy that you weren't saddled with another year of content you weren't going to buy before a new product came out.

[Stanley Woo]

SE JN wrote...
The only thing I'd like to know, and perhaps Stanley can help me on this; Is all of this DLC (Sig Ed, preorder before etc) INSIDE the case or sent to stores to be handed out? Do you know yet? I ask, because my store didn't even get the Fable 3 stuff not included in the game cases on time, so no one who visited my store was able to create a villager.

i don't rightly know. Chris Priestly might, though.

[Stanley Woo]

It actually looks like you're comparing two different currencies, dearlyblvd. One in (presumably) U.S. dollars and one in "R$", which I'm unfamiliar with. A quick Google search indicates it's Brazilian reals, or possibly South African rands.