450 réponses à ce sujet

[Realranger55]

Alynna_tp wrote...

I'd be interested in that answer too because my store also has "issues" with giving out things not included inside the game case. I usually don't get the items / codes at all if they aren't stuck inside the box safe and sound.

Also: How dare you guys give us items for free that are not included in the game. The NERVE of you people ... giving me free items for pre-ordering your game. How DARE you announce it weeks in advance, that extra items would be given out with pre-orders. I am shocked and appalled. I don't want anything for free. I want to pay for everything I get with my game. Then I can complain about that too of course! *evil laugh*

missed the point

[Sidac]

@ OP:

As Ive always said - Anything free is woth saving up for!

So, a big resounding NO. Its free stuff. Cant complain about free stuff that you normally wont be using after a few levels anyway. For those of you who are overwhelmed by the word FREE its ok. The stuff is MINOR.

Modifié par Sidac, 05 février 2011 - 05:26 .

[Alynna_tp]

You are right, I failed to read the whole thread before responding, I apologize. It's gone a bit off topic since the first couple of posts. I did edit to reflect that. I still am not complaining over a stack of free things. As many pointed out most become obsolete later in the game anyway.

[Meltemph]

Anyway, my claim isn't really disputable. You get much more content per dollar with major games and expansions than you do with DLC. You can disagree with which model you prefer, but please don't treat facts like opinions.

That is so subjective. I rarely felt that I got my monies worth with expansions vs DLC. Sure you may get more content in terms of time played, but that isn't helpful if you don't like most of that added content, most of that added time played that you got from x-pacs was crap, imo.

Obviously what I write is my opinion. I never, ever claimed to be "speaking for all customers". Please don't make pointless claims that derail the conversation. Please?

But you DID. You said expansions give consumers more value for your dollar. I disagree.

Content that is central to the plot (Witch Hunt) or that includes major gameplay features (the chest in Warden's Keep) should be collected into expansions (Golems, With Hunt) or should be included with the original game (Warden's Keep).

I understood completely what you said, and I disagree with it. If they don't have plans for it in the main game either because of time constraints or any other similar reason, I would prefer it be in DLC so I can pick and choose what content I like.

BioWare had zero DLC and many expansions for every game they published before DA:O. Are you trying to argue that they didn't continuously grow larger and make more and more money?

I quite litterally don't get how people can argue things that they have 0 knowledge about(and couldnt possibly know since we are not part of the company). Sure, they did "fine" but who are you to dictate what is good enough for a business? And besides this is with the assumption that expansions are a better value product, which is completely subjective.

It's amazing how quickly everyone seems to forget the "old BioWare". Do you remember Neverwinter Nights? Do you remember how they gave us two expansions, put a fair bit of effort into helping the community create a third expansion, patched the game for years, and gave us all sorts of new, free content regularly? What happened to that?

You mean besides the fact that I only liked HotU? I didn't like most of the expansions in NWN sorry to tell you and even that one(HotU) felt underwhelming to me.

Modifié par Meltemph, 05 février 2011 - 05:37 .

[KBomb]

Realranger55 wrote...

Alynna_tp wrote...

I'd be interested in that answer too because my store also has "issues" with giving out things not included inside the game case. I usually don't get the items / codes at all if they aren't stuck inside the box safe and sound.

Also: How dare you guys give us items for free that are not included in the game. The NERVE of you people ... giving me free items for pre-ordering your game. How DARE you announce it weeks in advance, that extra items would be given out with pre-orders. I am shocked and appalled. I don't want anything for free. I want to pay for everything I get with my game. Then I can complain about that too of course! *evil laugh*

missed the point

Did she miss the point about the free stuff and the people who are complaining about free stuff? Or what? Complaining because they offer optional content for a price and as a consumer you can choose to purchase it or not? DLC is being attached to a lot of games nowadays, to some it may be called a form of oppression, to some it might be called progress.
　
Okay, dramatization, but it’s what this thread makes me think of:
Kid One: How come your bicycle has a basket and a bell?
Kid Two: I ordered it that way.
Kid One: But we got it at the same store, they’re the exact same bike!
Kid Two: These things are optional, I opted to buy them, you did not. You saw them in the window, you knew they were there and you can still enjoy your bike without them.
Kid One: I don’t get these things for free? They had that basket and bell already! They should have just gave them to me! *tantrum ensues*

[Seifz]

Stanley Woo wrote...

And rotary-dial phones also worked for many years, as did pay-by-the-hour internet, CRT, leaded fuel, and non-unionized workforces. Things can and do change as technology makes it more feasible to do so.

Pushbutton phones, LCDs, unleaded fuel, and (arguably) unions all benefit me, the consumer.  If they also benefit the companies and the planet, all the better.  I hope you can understand that I'm more concerned with me than with BioWare.

Where's your up side? Consoles can get expanded content as well as PCs can, more frequent game content updates,  content that can still be integrated into the main game story, retailer incentive items, and all without completely doing away with expansions.

I'll accept the more frequent game content updates as valid.  I don't play games on consoles when I can get the same game for the PC, so that doesn't affect me.  It does affect other players, so fair enough.  On the other hand, development for consoles takes away from PC development.

You used to give us pre-order and retailer-exclusive bonuses before the DLC model became popular.  So, that's not an upside to DLC.  Also, it's incredibly annoying that I have to choose one item or another based on retailer.  I see that as a downside because now it's impossible to have a complete game.

Are you really not doing away with expansions completely?  Recent comments from Bio People seemed to suggest that expansions were dead for future titles.  I'd love to see one or two for DA2.

It would be silly indeed for an industry to come up wtih a new business model to make less money from consumers, especially when games are so much more expensive to make.

I don't want you to make less money.  I just want me to get what I'm paying for.

But you were just complaining about DLC. You should be happy that you weren't saddled with another year of content you weren't going to buy before a new product came out.

I bought it all anyway.  I'm sucker with high principles and a weak... whatever would stop me from buying all the pretty DLC.  But I don't like it when a company says they'll do something, doesn't do it, and then pretends it's okay.  DA:O and Awakening received very little support in the form of patches and both games still have major bugs.  I'm fine that you stopped the DLC (indeed, that's a positive!), but the patches needed more love.

Actually, I didn't buy the feast day DLC.  I couldn't buy it without having leftover BioWare Points and I thought that was really crappy for BioWare to do.  Is there a reason why we can't just use real money to buy the DLC for PCs like you do for the PS3?

[Realranger55]

KBomb wrote...

Realranger55 wrote...

Alynna_tp wrote...

I'd be interested in that answer too because my store also has "issues" with giving out things not included inside the game case. I usually don't get the items / codes at all if they aren't stuck inside the box safe and sound.

Also: How dare you guys give us items for free that are not included in the game. The NERVE of you people ... giving me free items for pre-ordering your game. How DARE you announce it weeks in advance, that extra items would be given out with pre-orders. I am shocked and appalled. I don't want anything for free. I want to pay for everything I get with my game. Then I can complain about that too of course! *evil laugh*

missed the point

Did she miss the point about the free stuff and the people who are complaining about free stuff? Or what? Complaining because they offer optional content for a price and as a consumer you can choose to purchase it or not? DLC is being attached to a lot of games nowadays, to some it may be called a form of oppression, to some it might be called progress.
　
Okay, dramatization, but it’s what this thread makes me think of:
Kid One: How come your bicycle has a basket and a bell?
Kid Two: I ordered it that way.
Kid One: But we got it at the same store, they’re the exact same bike!
Kid Two: These things are optional, I opted to buy them, you did not. You saw them in the window, you knew they were there and you can still enjoy your bike without them.
Kid One: I don’t get these things for free? They had that basket and bell already! They should have just gave them to me! *tantrum ensues*

You are oversimplifying the argument to an insane degree. No one is complaining about free stuff, we are complaining about the implementation of dlc to a video game. Dlc is not "free stuff". There is some "free stuff" but that is hardly what few people aside from yourself are trying to discuss.

In the end, you are right though. It's biowares decision to sell us stuff and it's ours to purchase it. But are the methods currently in use in place to make great games or to make tons of cash. Because in the past it felt like there intention was to make great games, nowadays, it's not so simple.

Modifié par Realranger55, 05 février 2011 - 05:50 .

[Phoenixblight]

Falls Edge wrote...

http://www.joystiq.c...over-1-million/

Okay I made me look it up, I now understand just how big of a deal it is and how much it makes, that's quite a bit of money just off of Shale and Warden's keep.

Thats just for Warden's Keep; Shale is was not bought the day of because there was no used games day 1. 

Modifié par Phoenixblight, 05 février 2011 - 05:52 .

[AlanC9]

Seifz wrote...
It's amazing how quickly everyone seems to forget the "old BioWare".  Do you remember Neverwinter Nights?  Do you remember how they gave us two expansions, put a fair bit of effort into helping the community create a third expansion, patched the game for years, and gave us all sorts of new, free content regularly?  What happened to that?

Neverwinter Nights? You mean that game with paid DLC that had even more restrictive DRM than DA2 will?

And no, I didn't put that in just for snark. The devs explicitly stated that the free stuff for NWN only existed because of the Premium Module revenue stream. No more revenue, no more free stuff either.

Modifié par AlanC9, 05 février 2011 - 05:56 .

[KBomb]

Realranger55 wrote...

You are oversimplifying the argument to an insane degree. No one is complaining about free stuff, we are complaining about the implementation of dlc to a video game. Dlc is not "free stuff". There is some "free stuff" but that is hardly what few people aside from yourself are trying to discuss.

In the end, you are right though. It's biowares decision to sell us stuff and it's ours to purchase it. But are the methods currently in use in place to make great games or to make tons of cash. Because in the past it felt like there intention was to make great games, nowadays, it's not so simple.

You missed my point, I am not only speaking of free stuff, but optional purchasable DLC as well. The fact that I see nothing wrong with it. I think you’re trying to make something complicated that does not need to be. You dislike DLC and I get that, but it’s as subjective as it is optional. You may not like the business side of it, or agree with it, but it’s how it is. Not going to change. It boils down to the fact if you want to purchase it, use it, and implement it into your game or not. You may not like the business aspect of it from your point of view, or that fact that you believe the quality of it may be lacking when equaled to an expansion pack. You can still enjoy your core game without any of it. Just as I can enjoy my core game with all of it, if I so chose it. It really is simple.

EDIT:
I know change can sometimes be a kick in the butt, and sometimes you feel as a customer you’re getting smaller and smaller. Reality is what it is, though. Bioware is a business, and if they don’t run it like a business, we won’t be playing any of their games.

Modifié par KBomb, 05 février 2011 - 05:57 .

[Fishy]

FDrage wrote...

doubt that these items unbalance things.

It's actually mess up the economy of the game so you end up getting the best of everything very early .Well and will make the beginning of the game extremely easy.I doubt bioware intended you to fight goblin with the superman armor with plasma shield.

Probably with the EA logo tagged on it...So you will look cool!Come on .. Dead space 2 DLC armor was cheesy.

Modifié par Suprez30, 05 février 2011 - 06:06 .

[Realranger55]

KBomb wrote...

Realranger55 wrote...

You are oversimplifying the argument to an insane degree. No one is complaining about free stuff, we are complaining about the implementation of dlc to a video game. Dlc is not "free stuff". There is some "free stuff" but that is hardly what few people aside from yourself are trying to discuss.

In the end, you are right though. It's biowares decision to sell us stuff and it's ours to purchase it. But are the methods currently in use in place to make great games or to make tons of cash. Because in the past it felt like there intention was to make great games, nowadays, it's not so simple.

You missed my point, I am not only speaking of free stuff, but optional purchasable DLC as well. The fact that I see nothing wrong with it. I think you’re trying to make something complicated that does not need to be. You dislike DLC and I get that, but it’s as subjective as it is optional. You may not like the business side of it, or agree with it, but it’s how it is. Not going to change. It boils down to the fact if you want to purchase it, use it, and implement it into your game or not. You may not like the business aspect of it from your point of view, or that fact that you believe the quality of it may be lacking when equaled to an expansion pack. You can still enjoy your core game without any of it. Just as I can enjoy my core game with all of it, if I so chose it. It really is simple.

EDIT:
I know change can sometimes be a kick in the butt, and sometimes you feel as a customer you’re getting smaller and smaller. Reality is what it is, though. Bioware is a business, and if they don’t run it like a business, we won’t be playing any of their games.

Right, we are sort of on seperate ends of the spectrum here. I understand the business aspect of it, and I can accept it. But I dont think it is necessary.  I do believe that if bioware operated as they did 5-10 years ago they would still be around today. Because they have always been about quality. They have always done there own thing and succeeded beyond belief. I have been a bioware fan since the late 90's and this is the first time they have ever inspired any notions of doubt within me. 
Mostly I realise my complaints are a little whiny, but why not? Bioware has spoiled us for countless years, why are they all of a sudden buying into industry trends? Even today they are one of the most respected rpg developpers in North America, why not set the trends instead of follow them like they used to. 

*edit: yah i skipped over your bike scenario, so you are right I did miss that point. But bikes are not video games. Thats like saying there should be a double blockbuster option for every movie that includes all kinds of awesome extra scenes for those willing to pay. Its just a different standard and a different medium.

Modifié par Realranger55, 05 février 2011 - 06:09 .

[Fishy]

Realranger55



You can't realy compare bioware now vs bioware before.With youtube,gametrailer,facebook and this forum etc ..You see much more stuff about them vs them in the late 90's.Did you talk with the developper in the 90's?Did you watch podcast about the story?Could you get a lot information about the product ?



Hell my only source of information were gossip between friend that were subcribed to nintendo power.

[KBomb]

Realranger55 wrote...



Right, we are sort of on seperate ends of the spectrum here. I understand the business aspect of it, and I can accept it. But I dont think it is necessary.  I do believe that if bioware operated as they did 5-10 years ago they would still be around today. Because they have always been about quality. They have always done there own thing and succeeded beyond belief. I have been a bioware fan since the late 90's and this is the first time they have ever inspired any notions of doubt within me. 
Mostly I realise my complaints are a little whiny, but why not? Bioware has spoiled us for countless years, why are they all of a sudden buying into industry trends? Even today they are one of the most respected rpg developpers in North America, why not set the trends instead of follow them like they used to. 

*edit: yah i skipped over your bike scenario, so you are right I did miss that point. But bikes are not video games. Thats like saying there should be a double blockbuster option for every movie that includes all kinds of awesome extra scenes for those willing to pay. Its just a different standard and a different medium.

I like to think instead of them following a trend, they are working hard to stay abreast with the times so that we may enjoy games and DLC along with everyone else. Half full!
And no, bikes aren’t like video games. I was just using that analogy because it was the first to pop into my head. And with movies, you can choose to buy blue ray or a normal dvd, the blue ray is more expensive than the dvd, but better quality. They’re still the same movie. You just might get a more enjoyable visual experience with the blue ray. Okay, okay. No more analogies!

[Realranger55]

@ Suprez
Yah its true. A little bit of nostalgia. But my point is they could succeed in today's environment without giving in as much to the modern scenario you just described. It's just the way I feel as a fan.

Modifié par Realranger55, 05 février 2011 - 06:19 .

[Realranger55]

KBomb wrote...

Realranger55 wrote...



Right, we are sort of on seperate ends of the spectrum here. I understand the business aspect of it, and I can accept it. But I dont think it is necessary.  I do believe that if bioware operated as they did 5-10 years ago they would still be around today. Because they have always been about quality. They have always done there own thing and succeeded beyond belief. I have been a bioware fan since the late 90's and this is the first time they have ever inspired any notions of doubt within me. 
Mostly I realise my complaints are a little whiny, but why not? Bioware has spoiled us for countless years, why are they all of a sudden buying into industry trends? Even today they are one of the most respected rpg developpers in North America, why not set the trends instead of follow them like they used to. 

*edit: yah i skipped over your bike scenario, so you are right I did miss that point. But bikes are not video games. Thats like saying there should be a double blockbuster option for every movie that includes all kinds of awesome extra scenes for those willing to pay. Its just a different standard and a different medium.

I like to think instead of them following a trend, they are working hard to stay abreast with the times so that we may enjoy games and DLC along with everyone else. Half full!
And no, bikes aren’t like video games. I was just using that analogy because it was the first to pop into my head. And with movies, you can choose to buy blue ray or a normal dvd, the blue ray is more expensive than the dvd, but better quality. They’re still the same movie. You just might get a more enjoyable visual experience with the blue ray. Okay, okay. No more analogies!

Lol, I knew you would bring up blu-ray, I also expected you to mention all the bonus features on blu-rays ( deleted scenes, directors commentary.) But I was talking more of the straight up theater experience. Yah, I'm pretty stuck in my old ways, but those are my opinions and thats what forums are for.

[Phoenixblight]

Realranger55 wrote...

@ Suprez
Yah its true. A little bit of nostalgia. But my point is they could succeed in today's environment without giving in as much to the modern scenario you just described. It's just the way I feel as a fan.

You have proof or you just going off of your beliefs?


Edit:


Tell that to Midway. They were going off the same model as they were 10 years ago and what happened to them? Since we are talking about hypotheticals.

Modifié par Phoenixblight, 05 février 2011 - 06:29 .

[pallascedar]

I don't know whether or not people realize this, but Bioware is a company; like it or not, in our capitalist society, companies exist to make money. They also (tend to) operate under limited budgets to produce a product which customers can buy. Maybe budget, or time, or whatever is alloted to a character or quest because it's more economically efficient.



I mean, say the development staff has so much money for characters, but then budgeting says "well, we'll give you X more to make a new character if they can be sold as a DLC". That's not a crime, it's a company. Maybe they could afford to develop Sebastian because he was a DLC.

[KBomb]

Realranger55 wrote...

Lol, I knew you would bring up blu-ray, I also expected you to mention all the bonus features on blu-rays ( deleted scenes, directors commentary.) But I was talking more of the straight up theater experience. Yah, I'm pretty stuck in my old ways, but those are my opinions and thats what forums are for.

I haven’t been to a theater in a long, long time, which is probably why I didn’t make the connection. And indeed, your opinion is as valuable as mine, that is one thing we can agree on!

[brownybrown]

At the end of the day I think we can all agree that some of the DAO dlc content was too short and would have been better if it fitted into the main story better. So all we can hope for from this thread is that Bioware decide to do less short/npc side mission dlc and more DAA lite dlc

[Reanna]

Well since the actual game is only 3 hours long its good we have 20+ hours worth of DLC!

[ForceXev]

Deja vu.  I remember this exact discussion on the forum about Dragon Age Origins' pre-release DLC, and here we go again.

My opinion is that all of this pre-release DLC is hurting Bioware's image.  It is excessive and it just looks bad.  Regardless of Bioware's good intentions and the realities of game development, the perception it creates is not a good one.  Bioware's intention is to create an impression that says "if you pre-order our game we will reward you with bonus DLC content."  Nothing wrong with that.  However as this thread reveals, it doesn't really work out like that.  The perception it actually creates is "you had better pre-order our game, or else we will penalize you by not letting you have this content." 

It doesn't matter what the reality is.  I'm sure it is not Bioware's intention to withhold content just to ****** off anyone who doesn't pre-order the game.  But that's the perception that the pre-release DLC content creates.  Even though I totally understand what Stanley is saying, and I believe him 100%, I still do not feel like I got bonus stuff for pre-ordering.  I can't shake the feeling that I was forced to pre-order the game or else I would have missed out on a companion character and other content.  It doesn't leave me with a good feeling.

My suggestion for the future would be to limit pre-order "bonus" DLC to interesting fun items, not major content like companion characters and missions.  If you have extra stuff that you couldn't fit into the game like characters and missions, hang on to it, work on it for a while, make it real shiny, and then release it later as purchasable DLC.  Or if want to make yourselves look totally awesome, release it for free a couple months after the game comes out.  You're giving it away for free either way, but while releasing it as pre-order bonus makes customers ornery, releasing it for free after the game is out will make your customers worship you.

[Bfler]

Don't blame Bioware for that. Bioware is only the executive part of the development. EA determines the rules for the merchandising.

[Seifz]

Bfler wrote...

Don't blame Bioware for that. Bioware is only the executive part of the development. EA determines the rules for the merchandising.

BioWare is EA.  BioWare is EA.  BioWare is EA.

Seriously, y'all have to stop separating them.  They're one company!

[Aldandil]

Seifz wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

And rotary-dial phones also worked for many years, as did pay-by-the-hour internet, CRT, leaded fuel, and non-unionized workforces. Things can and do change as technology makes it more feasible to do so.

Pushbutton phones, LCDs, unleaded fuel, and (arguably) unions all benefit me, the consumer.  If they also benefit the companies and the planet, all the better.  I hope you can understand that I'm more concerned with me than with BioWare.

Where's your up side? Consoles can get expanded content as well as PCs can, more frequent game content updates,  content that can still be integrated into the main game story, retailer incentive items, and all without completely doing away with expansions.

I'll accept the more frequent game content updates as valid.  I don't play games on consoles when I can get the same game for the PC, so that doesn't affect me.  It does affect other players, so fair enough.  On the other hand, development for consoles takes away from PC development.

You used to give us pre-order and retailer-exclusive bonuses before the DLC model became popular.  So, that's not an upside to DLC.  Also, it's incredibly annoying that I have to choose one item or another based on retailer.  I see that as a downside because now it's impossible to have a complete game.

Are you really not doing away with expansions completely?  Recent comments from Bio People seemed to suggest that expansions were dead for future titles.  I'd love to see one or two for DA2.

It would be silly indeed for an industry to come up wtih a new business model to make less money from consumers, especially when games are so much more expensive to make.

I don't want you to make less money.  I just want me to get what I'm paying for.

But you were just complaining about DLC. You should be happy that you weren't saddled with another year of content you weren't going to buy before a new product came out.

I bought it all anyway.  I'm sucker with high principles and a weak... whatever would stop me from buying all the pretty DLC.  But I don't like it when a company says they'll do something, doesn't do it, and then pretends it's okay.  DA:O and Awakening received very little support in the form of patches and both games still have major bugs.  I'm fine that you stopped the DLC (indeed, that's a positive!), but the patches needed more love.

Actually, I didn't buy the feast day DLC.  I couldn't buy it without having leftover BioWare Points and I thought that was really crappy for BioWare to do.  Is there a reason why we can't just use real money to buy the DLC for PCs like you do for the PS3?

So far, it seems odd to argue that DLC has replaced Expansion Packs, considering that you got both for DA:O. That would indicate that it's possible for a company to do both. If it's possible to do both, I would think that BioWare would do so as long as it's worth the investment. However, if making an Expansion Pack will cost them more and give them less, I can't really blame them for not doing it. Isn't asking a company to spend their resources in something that will yield sub-optimal returns almost like asking for free stuff?

What I don't get is how DLC is not considered to be a product, just like any other one. Is it because you download it, so that you don't get a physical copy? Is it because it ties into another game? You still choose to buy it if you think it will give you your money's worth, or choose not to buy it if you don't. I can't think of a reason why this wouldn't be the case.

Finally, when it comes to the question of the OP, yes, I am a bit overwhelmed by the DLC included in the game. I pre-ordered the game before january 11, and I'll take what I get in the box. Since the price was the same, I don't really care. I can't keep up with all the swords and shields and whatnot. I did noticed that the Sebastian character will be included, and it seemed like a fair deal to get something for doing the pre-order.