450 réponses à ce sujet

[Realranger55]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Realranger55 wrote...
True, it's just not how they used to do it.

We also used to have to cut forever any content that was nearly ready, or just about ready for prime time but didn't meet quality standard. You know a lot of that DLC content you see? You wouldn't have seen it at all back then.

We also used ahve to wait 6-8 months for an expansion to be developed. nowadays, in 8 months, no one remembers who you were and no one's playing your game anymore. DLC could be considered tiny micro-expansions that come out more often, keeping people interested in your game.

You know what else we used to do? Handwrite letters and wait a few weeks if we wanted to talk to someone in another country. Or dial them up on a rotary phone. You'll note that's changed as well. I used to be able to buy shoes for $15, and we wore onions on our belts, because that was the style at the time.

Using "that's not how they used to do it" as a reason for disliking something is a little silly, and more than a little curmudgeonly. I should know. I'm a curmudgeon.

Well, when I said that I was applying it to dlc vs expansions which I had also listed my reasons for dislking. Just because things change doesn't mean all change is good either.

[Falls Edge]

AlanC9 wrote...

Hey, be fair to Wikipedia. The quoted bit doesn't actually support the nonsense conclusion Falls Edge drew from it.

To be fair to the world, I'd like some effort posting telling me where I'm wrong. I want to be wrong, I want to believe that dlc that could be implemented in the game right now before release shouldn't be.

[KBomb]

Falls Edge wrote...

I guess I'll go into this more deeply to make you understand why they're ripping you off.

The preorders are a promise that you'll pay for the game upon delivery.

WIKI: Pre-order incentive, also known as pre-order bonus, is a marketing tactic whereby a retailer or manufacturer/publisher of a product (usually a book or video game) encourages buyers to reserve a copy of the product at the store prior to its release.
Reasons for this vary, typically publishers wish to ensure strong
initial sales for a product, and the offered incentive is used to induce
shoppers (who might otherwise wait for positive reviews or a specific
shopping period like the holiday season) to commit to a purchase. Having
paid for part or all of the purchase when placing the order, these
consumers will usually complete the transaction shortly after the
product's release, often on its first day in stores. Individual stores
or retail chains
may also offer bonuses for a popularly anticipated product, to ensure
that the customer chooses to buy at that location, rather than from a
competitor.
The pre-order bonus may be as simple as a discount
on the item's purchase price or other related merchandise (another
marketing strategy), or may consist of an actual item or set of items.
These items may be related merchandise or exclusive items available only
through the pre-order program.

This means you cannot back out if you hear the game is glitched, if any disaster occurs you have to wait until the company recieves enough complaints to 'return' defective models, thus you can essentially, if something bad happens to your product be unable to return it, or have to pay for a warranty to make sure the product can be returned in the event of damage.

If the game plops, is incredibly glitchy, you fall down on your disc on the way home you're officially screwed.

It's a part of negotiation, you are taking a risk for no reason except the possible gamble of getting moar fwee stwuff. Stuff that they specifically designed so that you would preorder it, the dlc for sebastion however is different, he's already been designed he is close or near complete, and they're charging you for him because they can instead of any real reason.

Infact if you want to get into boring ol' history you can ask me about the Mass effect toggle glitch that bioware didn't fix for 3 months after release.

If you don’t want the pre-order incentives, then don’t bother pre-ordering it. If you’re not certain the game is for you, then by all means wait until it comes out, and if it is satisfactory, spend $7.00 to get the DLC. The thing about the majority of DLC is that you can play the entire game and not need any of it. DLC is optional. You don’t have to purchase it. If you get it free, you don’t have to use it.

And it really, really annoys me when someone goes on about warning me about unsavory business tactics, or telling me how I am being ripped off, or exploited. If you feel this way--then by all means, please stay away from such underhanded schemes. But, please, do not presume to speak for everyone as if they have a fist full of dollars and no brain to determine how to spend it.

[SirGladiator]

I love all this awesome DLC! I don't understand why anybody wouldn't be happy to have all these cool free items you can get, I say more please! The more DLC the better!

[Stanley Woo]

Falls Edge wrote...
This means you cannot back out if you hear the game is glitched, if any disaster occurs you have to wait until the company recieves enough complaints to 'return' defective models, thus you can essentially, if something bad happens to your product be unable to return it, or have to pay for a warranty to make sure the product can be returned in the event of damage.

Incorrect. Software works slightly differently than non-software products regardless of whether there is a pre-order, DLC, or not. Many retailers do accept returns or exchanges for store credit, and publishers will generally accept returns or exchanges for the warranty period of 90 days. Pre-orders generally may be cancelled at any time, though this is a retailer policy and not a developer/publisher policy.

Not sure where you're getting your information from, but I would view that source wtih suspicion and take extra care when quoting from it.

If the game plops, is incredibly glitchy, you fall down on your disc on the way home you're officially screwed.

Thisi s the case with any product. One you leave the store, it is your responsibility to care for it. Neither the retailer, developer, or publisher, has anything to do wtih you falling, the disc breaking in the fall, or the disc rolling into an open sewer opening after you fall, your game box being run over by a herd of rampaging cattle, or you throwing the box in front of a speeding train.

It's a part of negotiation, you are taking a risk for no reason except the possible gamble of getting moar fwee stwuff. Stuff that they specifically designed so that you would preorder it, the dlc for sebastion however is different, he's already been designed he is close or near complete, and they're charging you for him because they can instead of any real reason.

Infact if you want to get into boring ol' history you can ask me about the Mass effect toggle glitch that bioware didn't fix for 3 months after release.

there is no negotiation involved or required. We release a product for sale. At the point of sale, you choose whether you wish to purchase that product at the price requested. If you do, you exchange money for the product. If you do not, no harm, no foul.

DLC is a way to make said product shinier and more attractive for purchase. You may not have wanted the product, but what if it also included a SHINY? Again, at the point of purchase, you choose whether you wish to purchase that product at the price requested. If you do, you exchange money for the product. If you do not, no harm, no foul.

But what if that product could be purchased earlier and came with several SHINIES and a ZOMG? Well, in that case (and stop me if you've heard this one), at the point of purchase, you choose whether you wish to purchase that product at the price requested. If you do, you exchange money for the product. If you do not, no harm, no foul.

did you notice any kind of pattern there? Each and every time, the consumer makes a choice. He can say yes or no for whatever reason he likes. the price is clearly stated, he is under no duress, and there is no penalty for either choice. Not really sure where the "ripping off" or "milking" arguments are coming from.

EDIT: Also, did I mention the game is also available without the DLC? In order to get that version, at the point of purchase...

Modifié par Stanley Woo, 04 février 2011 - 04:53 .

[ItsFreakinJesus]

Overwhelmed, underwhelmed, why isn't anybody just whelmed?

[NKKKK]

I like how Stanley is going around the complaints at hand. I gotta give it to him, he's good at what he does.

[Falls Edge]

*sigh* I've never said that you need dlc to complete the game, you guys keep jumping right over me and reaching some sort of inevitble conclusion like you're fighting a phantom I can't see somewhere.

I'm just saying that I don't see the point in the dlc if it could be put in everyones game before the game comes out.

It's a bonus for preordering, the reason and profits for preordering if you don't want talking about the business point then ignore it. It's simply give assurance that you'll pay when you get to the store whenever.

The dlc for sebastion is completed right now, why won't they put it into the game? It's not necessary to complete the game therefore, it could be said that none of your party members are needed to complete the game at all.

I just don't understand the concept of having to pay extra for extra content before a game is out that has been completed and ready to go already. It's not like they can't put it in for free right now this instant, would you even be able to tell the difference if they never mentioned sebastion was dlc? Are all your companions related to the main quest? Or could some of them be deleted as well? Then charge you to have them in the game.

Excuse me for being surly I guess.

[marshalleck]

Falls Edge wrote...

The wiki argument died when professors started to go ocd in there.

If you'd like, I wouldn't mind maybe spouting other information sources so you can cross-reference it.

I have paid a total of $0 so far for my pre-order. If someone made you pay the full price up front without handing over a product in return, you shopped at a shady retailer. 

When the demo comes out, I'll play it. If I don't like the changes that have been made to the game, I can cancel my pre-order and not be out a cent. I am under no obligation to complete the transaction. So who is being fleeced here? 

Modifié par marshalleck, 04 février 2011 - 05:04 .

[CubbieBlue66]

I don't mind the general idea of pre-order DLC. It serves quite a few purposes for Bioware, all of which guarantee a slightly larger revenue stream than they otherwise would have gotten. In return, we get some stuff that wasn't going to be ready in time for the discs to be printed, but that they can shore up in the time before launch.



The only time it bothers me is when different places have different pre-order DLC bonuses. I understand that Bioware gets paid by retailers in exchange for "exclusive" items... but it's really a kick in the balls to completionists everywhere.

[Ziggeh]

Stanley Woo wrote...

I used to be able to buy shoes for $15, and we wore onions on our belts, because that was the style at the time.

I chased that rascal to get it back, but gave up after dickity six miles.

Modifié par Ziggeh, 04 février 2011 - 05:01 .

[Phoenixblight]

Falls Edge wrote...

*sigh* I've never said that you need dlc to complete the game, you guys keep jumping right over me and reaching some sort of inevitble conclusion like you're fighting a phantom I can't see somewhere.

I'm just saying that I don't see the point in the dlc if it could be put in everyones game before the game comes out.

It's a bonus for preordering, the reason and profits for preordering if you don't want talking about the business point then ignore it. It's simply give assurance that you'll pay when you get to the store whenever.

The dlc for sebastion is completed right now, why won't they put it into the game? It's not necessary to complete the game therefore, it could be said that none of your party members are needed to complete the game at all.

I just don't understand the concept of having to pay extra for extra content before a game is out that has been completed and ready to go already. It's not like they can't put it in for free right now this instant, would you even be able to tell the difference if they never mentioned sebastion was dlc? Are all your companions related to the main quest? Or could some of them be deleted as well? Then charge you to have them in the game.

Excuse me for being surly I guess.

You could have easily gotten all the said preorder bonuses for free but you CHOSE not to. You're the one to blame; they gave you ample time to decide to get the Signature Edition for no money down but you CHOSE not to. 

Modifié par Phoenixblight, 04 février 2011 - 05:04 .

[TJPags]

Falls Edge wrote...

I guess I'll go into this more deeply to make you understand why they're ripping you off.

The preorders are a promise that you'll pay for the game upon delivery.

WIKI: Pre-order incentive, also known as pre-order bonus, is a marketing tactic whereby a retailer or manufacturer/publisher of a product (usually a book or video game) encourages buyers to reserve a copy of the product at the store prior to its release.
Reasons for this vary, typically publishers wish to ensure strong
initial sales for a product, and the offered incentive is used to induce
shoppers (who might otherwise wait for positive reviews or a specific
shopping period like the holiday season) to commit to a purchase. Having
paid for part or all of the purchase when placing the order, these
consumers will usually complete the transaction shortly after the
product's release, often on its first day in stores. Individual stores
or retail chains
may also offer bonuses for a popularly anticipated product, to ensure
that the customer chooses to buy at that location, rather than from a
competitor.
The pre-order bonus may be as simple as a discount
on the item's purchase price or other related merchandise (another
marketing strategy), or may consist of an actual item or set of items.
These items may be related merchandise or exclusive items available only
through the pre-order program.

This means you cannot back out if you hear the game is glitched, if any disaster occurs you have to wait until the company recieves enough complaints to 'return' defective models, thus you can essentially, if something bad happens to your product be unable to return it, or have to pay for a warranty to make sure the product can be returned in the event of damage.

If the game plops, is incredibly glitchy, you fall down on your disc on the way home you're officially screwed.

It's a part of negotiation, you are taking a risk for no reason except the possible gamble of getting moar fwee stwuff. Stuff that they specifically designed so that you would preorder it, the dlc for sebastion however is different, he's already been designed he is close or near complete, and they're charging you for him because they can instead of any real reason.

Infact if you want to get into boring ol' history you can ask me about the Mass effect toggle glitch that bioware didn't fix for 3 months after release.

Yes, it's a tactic to induce you to buy the game when and where they want.  Game companies want pe-orders.  So do record companies.  So do book publishers.  It's about creating buzz to create sales.

Why do you think singles are released before the CD comes out?  So people can hear it, and (hopefully, for the record company) decide they want it.  Then, when the CD hits, it goes gold quickly.  Pre-orders with games work the same way.  So do special editions of books, and books signings.  Hell, sports teams have t-shirt or hat giveaways for the same reason.

And of course retailers want you to buy from them.  It's how they make money.  It's why there are sales, free delivery, etc.

Now, might games be glitched?  Sure.  But that might happen whether you pre-order or buy 2 days after release, or even 4 months after release.

There's nothing wrong with offering an incentive to buy something.  If you choose to take advantage of that incentive, great.  If you don't, it's your choice to make.  Complaining that you don't get the incentive if you don't take advantage of it . . . well, that's like saying I didn't go to the book signing, why don't I have a signed copy of the book?

[Falls Edge]

marshalleck wrote...

Falls Edge wrote...

The wiki argument died when professors started to go ocd in there.

If you'd like, I wouldn't mind maybe spouting other information sources so you can cross-reference it.

I have paid a total of $0 so far for my pre-order. If someone made you pay the full price up front without handing over a product in return, you shopped at a shady retailer. 

When the demo comes out, I'll play it. If I don't like the changes that have been made to the game, I can cancel my pre-order and not be out a cent. So who is being fleeced here? 

Going to say that I made a mistake, about the pre-order it's simply that you say you're going to pay, I don't think I wrote it the right way, perhaps because I'm whining I don't come across clearly. <_<

[Realranger55]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Falls Edge wrote...
This means you cannot back out if you hear the game is glitched, if any disaster occurs you have to wait until the company recieves enough complaints to 'return' defective models, thus you can essentially, if something bad happens to your product be unable to return it, or have to pay for a warranty to make sure the product can be returned in the event of damage.

Incorrect. Software works slightly differently than non-software products regardless of whether there is a pre-order, DLC, or not. Many retailers do accept returns or exchanges for store credit, and publishers will generally accept returns or exchanges for the warranty period of 90 days. Pre-orders generally may be cancelled at any time, though this is a retailer policy and not a developer/publisher policy.

Not sure where you're getting your information from, but I would view that source wtih suspicion and take extra care when quoting from it.

If the game plops, is incredibly glitchy, you fall down on your disc on the way home you're officially screwed.

Thisi s the case with any product. One you leave the store, it is your responsibility to care for it. Neither the retailer, developer, or publisher, has anything to do wtih you falling, the disc breaking in the fall, or the disc rolling into an open sewer opening after you fall, your game box being run over by a herd of rampaging cattle, or you throwing the box in front of a speeding train.

It's a part of negotiation, you are taking a risk for no reason except the possible gamble of getting moar fwee stwuff. Stuff that they specifically designed so that you would preorder it, the dlc for sebastion however is different, he's already been designed he is close or near complete, and they're charging you for him because they can instead of any real reason.

Infact if you want to get into boring ol' history you can ask me about the Mass effect toggle glitch that bioware didn't fix for 3 months after release.

there is no negotiation involved or required. We release a product for sale. At the point of sale, you choose whether you wish to purchase that product at the price requested. If you do, you exchange money for the product. If you do not, no harm, no foul.

DLC is a way to make said product shinier and more attractive for purchase. You may not have wanted the product, but what if it also included a SHINY? Again, at the point of purchase, you choose whether you wish to purchase that product at the price requested. If you do, you exchange money for the product. If you do not, no harm, no foul.

But what if that product could be purchased earlier and came with several SHINIES and a ZOMG? Well, in that case (and stop me if you've heard this one), at the point of purchase, you choose whether you wish to purchase that product at the price requested. If you do, you exchange money for the product. If you do not, no harm, no foul.

did you notice any kind of pattern there? Each and every time, the consumer makes a choice. He can say yes or no for whatever reason he likes. the price is clearly stated, he is under no duress, and there is no penalty for either choice. Not really sure where the "ripping off" or "milking" arguments are coming from.

EDIT: Also, did I mention the game is also available without the DLC? In order to get that version, at the point of purchase...

Right, its up to the consumer to purchase the dlc. Remember Levi Dryden, hangin out in your party camp? I really wanted to finish that conversation with him, so I sucked it up and payed for it. 
The question is, is it really good practice to do things like  add dlc, then taunt the people who don't feel like paying for it? If you are going to stick something in the game, might as well make it available to everyone at release.

[AlanC9]

Falls Edge wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Hey, be fair to Wikipedia. The quoted bit doesn't actually support the nonsense conclusion Falls Edge drew from it.

To be fair to the world, I'd like some effort posting telling me where I'm wrong. I want to be wrong, I want to believe that dlc that could be implemented in the game right now before release shouldn't be.

I'm going to have to bifurcate that a bit. I was talking about you being wrong here:

This means you cannot back out if you hear the game is glitched, if any disaster occurs you have to wait until the company recieves enough complaints to 'return' defective models, thus you can essentially, if something bad happens to your product be unable to return it, or have to pay for a warranty to make sure the product can be returned in the event of damage.

As several people have told you, you can back out of preorders. For free. I'm assuming this was supposed to be about preorders, and not some big non sequitur you dropped into the middle of the thread.

As for proving that "dlc that could be implemented in the game right now before release shouldn't be"...  I don't see how this can be done for you by any argument whatsoever. "Should"s are almost impossible to prove, and I get the impression you're operating from a bizarre set of premises to begin with.

[Stanley Woo]

Falls Edge wrote...
I'm just saying that I don't see the point in the dlc if it could be put in everyones game before the game comes out.

When it comes to games development, the game has to be finished at some point long before it appears on store shelves. The content on that disc has to be finalized and the bejeebers has to be tested out of it. Nothing can change on that disc or else a lot of work has to be re-done to get it ready for things like final stage testing, certification and submission.

During this point of "nothing can change on the disc," people who are twiddling their thumbs otherwise can be working on things like DLC and day 1 patches, whatever the studio decides to do. Maybe both, who knows what they have time and manpower for? It's at this time that DLC can be made, because even after all the above is done, the game has to be manufactured and distributed to all the retailers. You're looking at anywhere from a few weeks to a couple of months where nothing on that disc can be modified.

The dlc for sebastion is completed right now, why won't they put it into the game?

Is it? I suppose you would know better than the folks actually working on our game and our DLC content, wouldn't you? downloadable content is called downloadable content because it doesn't have to appear on that disc whose contents cannot be altered. It just has to be available for download (hence "downloadable content") when the game is released. such content, because it doesn't have to appear on the disc, whose contents can't be touched, also doesn't have to go through as much time in certification and submission.

I just don't understand the concept of having to pay extra for extra content before a game is out that has been completed and ready to go already.

Nor does it sound like you're trying to understand, but hopefully, my explanations can open up this mysterious world of videogame development for you a little. it's an esoteric process, and few people realyl understand it until and unless they're a part of it. I certainly wouldn't have known if I didn't start working here.

[KBomb]

Falls Edge wrote...

*sigh* I've never said that you need dlc to complete the game, you guys keep jumping right over me and reaching some sort of inevitble conclusion like you're fighting a phantom I can't see somewhere.

I'm just saying that I don't see the point in the dlc if it could be put in everyones game before the game comes out.

It's a bonus for preordering, the reason and profits for preordering if you don't want talking about the business point then ignore it. It's simply give assurance that you'll pay when you get to the store whenever.

The dlc for sebastion is completed right now, why won't they put it into the game? It's not necessary to complete the game therefore, it could be said that none of your party members are needed to complete the game at all.

I just don't understand the concept of having to pay extra for extra content before a game is out that has been completed and ready to go already. It's not like they can't put it in for free right now this instant, would you even be able to tell the difference if they never mentioned sebastion was dlc? Are all your companions related to the main quest? Or could some of them be deleted as well? Then charge you to have them in the game.



Excuse me for being surly I guess.

It’s just the way it is, and personally, I’m fine with it. When you buy a car, you have standard features and then you have features that are optional. You can still drive the car without that seat warmer, but man, does your butt feel nice if you opt to buy it.
I feel the same way about DLC. It’s just one of those optional things that are nice to buy, and if they’re free, it’s even better. It’s the way of the future, embrace it or choose to leave it behind, but don’t complain about it when your butt gets cold.

[Falls Edge]

I am indeed, as half the posters instantly disagreed with me.

I didn't come across clearly because I reacted poorly to perceived shadows that weren't there.

Needless to say it isn't about the preorders at all, it's about sebastion, which I thought was seperate from the pre-order package and that everyone had to pay up 7 bucks to get him.

I'm assuming I'm wrong here?


I'm kind of glad I got pounced on like this, it kind of cleared some things up for me, though I should've investigated more before saying anything.

Edit: Also, I am pissed off that I don't get as much stuff as people who pre-order simply because I don't want to spend that much until I'm sure that it's actually a good game, you can't preorder after a game is released to my knowledge, though I might be wrong about that.

Modifié par Falls Edge, 04 février 2011 - 05:11 .

[Ziggeh]

Realranger55 wrote...
The question is, is it really good practice to do things like  add dlc, then taunt the people who don't feel like paying for it?

It taunted you by offering you a choice. Shops: shelf after shelf of taunts.

Realranger55 wrote...
I really wanted............ payed for it.

Preeeeetty much.

[AlanC9]

Falls Edge wrote...
The dlc for sebastion is completed right now, why won't they put it into the game? It's not necessary to complete the game therefore, it could be said that none of your party members are needed to complete the game at all.

I just don't understand the concept of having to pay extra for extra content before a game is out that has been completed and ready to go already. It's not like they can't put it in for free right now this instant, would you even be able to tell the difference if they never mentioned sebastion was dlc? Are all your companions related to the main quest? Or could some of them be deleted as well? Then charge you to have them in the game.

Sure, they could do that. They could sell the whole game for $5 too.

Why should they?

[marshalleck]

Realranger55 wrote...

Right, its up to the consumer to purchase the dlc. Remember Levi Dryden, hangin out in your party camp? I really wanted to finish that conversation with him, so I sucked it up and payed for it. 
The question is, is it really good practice to do things like  add dlc, then taunt the people who don't feel like paying for it? If you are going to stick something in the game, might as well make it available to everyone at release.

That guy was a bad idea, and I think (hope?) Bioware now realize it. They are in fact people, just like you and I and they can have bad ideas and make mistakes. I don't recall reading anything positive about that implementation--at best the response was neutral. I'd be very surprised if Bioware repeat it.

Modifié par marshalleck, 04 février 2011 - 05:12 .

[Stanley Woo]

Realranger55 wrote...
Right, its up to the consumer to purchase the dlc. Remember Levi Dryden, hangin out in your party camp? I really wanted to finish that conversation with him, so I sucked it up and payed for it. 
The question is, is it really good practice to do things like  add dlc, then taunt the people who don't feel like paying for it? If you are going to stick something in the game, might as well make it available to everyone at release.

And any company that puts ads on television or on the radio might as well give you free stuff, right? you call it taunting, I call it yet another incentive to purchase the DLC. He was an optional conversation to get an optional quest, just like some of the quest zones in Lord of the Rings Online require payment to unlock. If I want to complete those quests, I'll choose to pay for them. If I don't need to do them that badly, I'll think twice. If I don't want them, I won't pay for them at all. As always, it is my choice.

[AlanC9]

Ziggeh wrote...

Realranger55 wrote...
The question is, is it really good practice to do things like  add dlc, then taunt the people who don't feel like paying for it?

It taunted you by offering you a choice. Shops: shelf after shelf of taunts.

Realranger55 wrote...
I really wanted............ payed for it.

Preeeeetty much.

Not to mention that he just said the taunt worked on him. Telling a game company that their sales tactic resulted in more sales isn't a great way to get them to stop using that tactic.