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Breaking the Game


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#1
mousestalker

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Boring Bit

Back in the dawn of time I played a MMORPG called 'City of Heroes'. One of the merry band of heroes I belonged to was a supergroup known as 'Repeat Offenders'. The underlying principle of RO was that 'more is better'. The CoH version of a healer was the 'Defender' class. RO's genius was to team as many of the same type of defender together and pwn the game. It worked amazingly well.

Fun Stuff

Dragon Age is not an MMORPG. But you can have teams. In fact most people play with teams of four, although some crazed souls solo the game. What I've noticed in discussions and guides is an over-reliance on MMORPG style play. Given the popularity of WoW that really isn't surprising.

But, if you really want to pwn the game, make Mike Laidlaw cry and cause bitter tears of shame and anguish at Bioware, think outside the box.

Roll a team of three rogue rangers with Morrigan in spider form. Roll a team of three magi with Shale as a statue. Go all warrior and grunt a lot. Go all arcane warrior with Oghren and grunt even more.

Four holy smites are not a waste, they are awesome. Play air hockey with War Cry! Have an unending field of flaming grease.

Play the game. Don't go cookie cutter. Play with it.

That way when we hit DA2 and things have changed, we'll be able to roll with the changes and make Bioware cry even more.

<3

Modifié par mousestalker, 04 février 2011 - 04:56 .


#2
LadyKarrakaz

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Thanks to you, my next game will be 3 rogues + mage, because your post made me realize how boringly I construct my groups (always one char of each class).

Just looking for challenge, I soloed Flemeth with a dwarf, but would not dare solo the entire game. I was no crazed, just wanted to try a different gameplay. And your post just gave me ideas.

Thanks.

#3
ladydesire

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What server did you play on, mousestalker? I was pretty active on Protector the first few years it was out.

#4
mousestalker

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Freedom and Infinity.



It has such a great character creation system. I suspect I probably spent more time creating and dressing dolls than actually playing the game.

#5
ColaQueen

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Excellent inspiration @mousestalker now that Circcenne has Zev I am just about to do the three Rogue party and have been wondering who the fourth should be, I might test it with Morrigan rather than Alistair.



Basically two things can happen in any party configuration or tactic strategy; either they die, or you die. There is nothing to be afraid of. I don't mind if I get owned in a fight because you learn and adapt. Well, you should imho.




#6
Last Darkness

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I played a Illusion/Storm Controler since launch before they became FOTM, I rerolled as a Stone/Dark character (I cant remeber if he was a Tanker or a Brute) after that I think. Then I rolled as a Domininator in CoV as a Ice/Psi and let me tell you, Base raids and defenses were a breeze when you shut down the enemies abilities to use their powers.

But I agree Mouse, the standard formula is tried and true but boring. I admit I very much enjoyed your pic that had 3 Archer Rogues with 3 Spiders and Morrigan in Spider Form. I myself didnt think of the Shale+3 Mages party though my current game is Arcane Warrior+3 Warriors.
You can even do a 4 Warrior party or a 3 archer Rogue Rangers with Shale in rock mastery party.

*EDIT*
3 Shapeshifted Characters plus Dog or Shale.
Wow they are just coming to me now lol.

*Edit 2*
Corrected the CoX stuff.

Modifié par Last Darkness, 05 février 2011 - 06:04 .


#7
ColaQueen

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LOL well I did two melee rogues 1-duelist PC 1-assasin Zev plus Lel as Archer w/scattering shot and Morrigan casting cold spells, horror and minor heal.



Hmm the first fight in Denerim was a bit brutal, PC went down fast followed by Lel then Morrigan leaving Zev to do stealth and stabs on each enemy on his own. A lot of health poultice was consumed I can tell you.



The second fight was a bit better only Morrigan went down that time.



But yep trying different combos is great idea, get outof your comfort zone and learn how other characters work. I tend not to use Lel that much because I find her hard to keep alive and then she's always a level or two behind the PC/Morrigan/Alistair etc But it's fun to give it a go. I will try the three with Alistair instead of Morrigan this time to see if that works better as he will draw more attention and Zev and PC can do what Rogues do bess, flanking!



I was thinking that after a few levels I would make PC Duelist/Bard Zev Assasin/Duelist and Lel Bard/Ranger making a very powerful trio.


#8
Notmarki

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Wow, i may do 3 rogues this play through and me as the mage, sounds fun :)

#9
Random70

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mousestalker wrote...
Dragon Age is not an MMORPG.


^ True statement. I would have thought that this was abundantly clear by now, but more than a year later and there are still people advocating the Taunt / Tank / Healbot setup. In many cases, thats actually the worst configuration you could use.  /facepalm

As one of those 'crazed souls' who solos, I've only played around with a few party configs...

* 4x Warriors - Very strong setup. See this thread. A non-stop string of Smite and Warcry is quite effective - and hilarious.

* 3x Cunning Backstabbers + Champion Warrior of your choice - Insane damage output. 3x SoC + Rally solves all ATT issues and low Defense is irrelevant as enemies die so quickly. No Taunting allowed!

* 3x Cunning Archers + Shale - Very effective. Bit of a pain staying in the Rock Mastery aura at all times. Enemy targeting is totally hosed by your squaddies constantly popping in and out of Stealth.

* Multiple Casters - Gawd! Even a Solo 'Bathrobe' Caster can completely wreck the place. Adding another just makes things silly.

mousestalker wrote...
But, if you really want to pwn the game, make Mike Laidlaw cry and cause bitter tears of shame and anguish at Bioware...


Craziest melee setup I've run...

AW - Starfang 2H
AW - Sw / Dag
STR DW Warrior - Axe / Dag
CUN DW Rogue - Dag / Dag

Party Buffs:
2x Haste, 2x Miasma, Flame Weapons, Frost Weapons, Rally, SoC. In most cases, Arcane Shield, Rock Armor, and Shimmering Shield are nothing but a waste of mana. Nothing is alive long enough to hurt you.

Combat Tactics :
1) Charge wildly and murder everything in sight
2) If there is an enemy mage, cast Glyph of Paralysis on him, then charge wildly and murder everything in sight.

Greatest Challenge:
Actually finishing the game. It's so mind-bendingly easy that it rapidly becomes boring.

#10
Last Darkness

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I tend to dislike more then 2 Melee characters due to crowding though.



3 Rogue Rangers with Blight Wolves + Dog, 3 Rogue Rangers with Bears + Shapeshifter Bearskarn. I wanna see these screenies.



Going back to CoX did anyone else play on....I think it was Pinnacle like i did where almost everyone was either a Controller or a Dominator? It was the Official "Control" server?

#11
ColaQueen

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I've never played an mmporg so I have no idea when people talk about the comparisons.



In KOTOR it was easier to balance your party as you had four jedi+melee characters, and a couple of either keep ranged or make them brutal sword dammagers so you always had heal spells and lots of dps wielders.



In my other DAO playthroughs I tended to stick with at least two front of party melee like Alistair and Sten, a rogue melee like Zev or PC and then a Mage generally Morrigan doing damage but with some heal spells.



I've been trying to mix it up a bit more, but finding I do die a lot possibly becuase of the lack of Wynne or just inexperience at using different characters and their tactics. This is also the first time I haven't been giving anyone much constituition based on rec to pump dex etc. I don't think it's working so well.


#12
Last Darkness

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Who in their right mind dosnt have HK-47 always in their KOTOR party?

#13
Stahlbart

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Oh noes, reminds me of my two playthroughs I have to finish yet! Two gunslinger. One in Kotor 1 and one in 2 (where it works insanely good!).

BTT:

I'm planning on a 4 Warrior, a 2 S&S Warriors + 2 Mages, a 2H-Rogue, another Arcane Warrior [...] playthrough. Hm, it seems I need more time ^^

#14
Last Darkness

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Stahlbart wrote...

Oh noes, reminds me of my two playthroughs I have to finish yet! Two gunslinger. One in Kotor 1 and one in 2 (where it works insanely good!).
BTT:
I'm planning on a 4 Warrior, a 2 S&S Warriors + 2 Mages, a 2H-Rogue, another Arcane Warrior [...] playthrough. Hm, it seems I need more time ^^


4 Warriors is great, you dont want more then 1 duel wielder though. You dont need a tank in this party either so you can do the DPS S+S build of 26 Dex and all other points Str. I personaly did Warden DPS Sword and Shield, Alistair Two hand, Sten Two hand, Ohgren Duel Wield mainhanders. You coudl also make a impressive all two hander party lol.

2 Warrs / 2 Mages....if both Warriors were Templar and had 100% spell immune or close to it and were DPS builds...Mayhem

2h Rogue is fun and differant, Ranger/Assassin or Ranger/Duelest.

Im currnetly playing a Bloodmage/Arcane Warrior(Caster version, not melee). But.....you remind me you can have 3 Arcane Warriors.(With Advanced Reanimation no less) do their Auras stack?

*Edit* You can also mix the 4 Warrior with Arcane Warrior. So Arcane Warrior+3 Warriors. I would Think a Arcae Warrior/Spirit Healer would own this setup.(So Warden or Wynne in this scenario)

Modifié par Last Darkness, 08 février 2011 - 04:33 .


#15
Stahlbart

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Alright, I think I have to go into more detail now ;)

First of all I'm using the respec-mod.

I have discovered, that the "standard" party setup is just boring. Not that it is all the same over and over again, it's quite easy as well. My elven rogue archer went on adventure with Sten (S&S), Zevran (dual daggers) and Morrigan (heal/buff etc.). *yawn*
Since that, I want to focus more on my pc, going alternate routes (have no alternative for that setup yet, but some respec-potions might change that).

- 4 Warriors:
Thought of having one of each talent tree (dual wielder, archer, 2hander, S&S). Quite sure I'm going Champion/Templer x 4. In combination with 4 2Handers... sounds fun!

- 2 S&S, 2 Mages
Will be me (female human noble, for marrying Alistair), Alistair, Morrigan and Wynne. Going for dps at least for me, maybe for Alistair too. Having the mages mostly buff. Maybe they're gonna be AWs. I want them to stay out of battle mostly.

- arcane warrior
will probably be a solo run. I wanna have a duo with dog, but for that I better go with human noble, eh? Wanan play a warrior dex tank with daggers, so an allrounder, maybe with dog. But as a rogue with stealth thats kinda tricky while having dog beeing attacked form everything while I'm stealthed.

- 2H rogue
just for the challenge. Backstabbing, maybe solo, maybe with party (2 mages for buff purpose are possible)

- right now started a cunning based backstabbing city elf female rogue. Plan to bring Morrigan along as AW and for stunning, so I can backstab a lot. Zevran or hardened Leliana for
captivating song. 4th member will either be Wynne, to do the same as Morrigan, or Zevran/Leliana for bow support.

There are more ideas in my mind, but I think that's enough for now.

Hope you understand what I mean, for this text is so long, I could have made some mistakes. Sorry for that in advance!

Modifié par Stahlbart, 08 février 2011 - 06:19 .


#16
Angband21

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I've run with an s&s dwarf noble, Alastair, Sten and Zevran and then just recently I went with a City Elf Dual wielding dagger rogue, Zevran, Leliana (archer) and Wynne spirit healer/aw.





Right now, in Awakenings, I am running my City Elf as an archer/dw dagger, Sigrun archer/dw dagger, Nathaniel bow/crossbow(setup to use the sureshot bolts that I saved from Origins) and Ohgren as an archer/2hander. With everyone firing their burst shots, scatter shot, and rain of arrows, I love to watch group attacks against me.

#17
jndiii

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Ah, yes.  I'm currently running Alistair, Sten and Dog with my mage.  It's amazing how fixated we get on having a SINGLE tank to take damage.  That makes my tanks die, especially at early levels: they simply cannot handle aggro in the usual way, taking all the hits while the fragile mages and rogues hang back and have target practice.

In my mind, it's the concept of HAVING a tank that indicates the game mechanics are just wrong.  Sturdier characters and less sturdy, sure - but a tank is broken.  The individual character is too powerful if they can tank.

I am reminded of Baldur's Gate II, a long time ago.  I came up with the "exploding ranger strategy", though I fully credit Boo with a great delivery and explanation.  Just pile all of the fire-resistant armor on Minsc, so he's immune to fire.  Have Minsc charge in and attract all of the deadly attention, creating a huge cluster of monsters.  Now, use spell trigger and fireballs from multiple wizards, targeting Minsc.  Minsc explodes in a ball of flame, but isn't hurt, while everything around him dies a firey death.  Minsc says, "Go for the eyes, Boo!" and Boo replies, "squeak I'm staying in the flame-proof armor, thanks!"

At least, that's what I remember from those heady days.  I might be misinterpreting Boo's squeaks.

In the context of DA:O, I find the early game (Orzammar) to be easy if you give all companions a dagger in the off-hand, turn on Flaming Weapons, and tactics them to go after whatever you target.  If I give them leave to pull their own stunts, one or another will get surrounded and die.  Coordinated with Flaming Weapons, they're a wandering damage field few opponents can defeat.  They even take down the ogre at the top of the tower very quickly.  It's rather amusing to watch soldier #2 get the slow-mo animation killing the ogre.  Who knew he was so tough?

So it turns out that with 3 characters wandering around the field of battle, the damage each one takes is much less, so the whole team survives.  Having one act as tank ensures the tank's death until you can get to higher levels or notch down the difficulty to Normal or Easy.

#18
jndiii

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Just spotted this:



In this thread: http://social.biowar...6/index/5333312



All-archer party taking down Flemeth in seconds.

#19
Zombie Chow

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I've an honest question, simple and naive though it may be.  What is generally considered the standard party?

The reason I ask is because...

mousestalker wrote...

Roll a team of three magi with Shale as a statue.


...that is my de facto team.  My PC Mage Arcane Warrior with my favourite spells, Morrigan for Storm of the Century, Wynne for healing and some other spells, then Shale with a lot of Constitution.

I thought this was the standard team.  I tried an Origin for each class, liked my Mage the most, then found the more Mages the better.  Shale was there because I couldn't find a 4th Mage and she needed no management.

#20
mousestalker

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Zombie Chow wrote...

I've an honest question, simple and naive though it may be.  What is generally considered the standard party?

The reason I ask is because...

mousestalker wrote...

Roll a team of three magi with Shale as a statue.


...that is my de facto team.  My PC Mage Arcane Warrior with my favourite spells, Morrigan for Storm of the Century, Wynne for healing and some other spells, then Shale with a lot of Constitution.

I thought this was the standard team.  I tried an Origin for each class, liked my Mage the most, then found the more Mages the better.  Shale was there because I couldn't find a 4th Mage and she needed no management.


Judging from what others have written, Tank, off-tank warrior, mage and rogue.

I found myself bored as I knew what the convos were for those characters and I wanted to hear badinage between my companions, so I went Warden, Zevran, Leliana and Morrigan, then kept swapping companions in just to hear what they had to say.

The game is a lot more fun when you lose your blinders.  <3

Modifié par mousestalker, 09 février 2011 - 06:34 .


#21
Stahlbart

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Anyone any ideas on my party mentioned above? (Me - cunning based archer rogue [wanna keep that], Morrigan, Sten, Zevran.)

I want to pep that up and go alternative ways. I have tons of ideas, but not with that constellation and the fact that I want to focus on my pc.

Suggestions?

#22
Zombie Chow

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What mousestalker said about the party mix of 1 tank (Alistair or Shale), 1 off-tank (Sten or Oghren), 1 rogue (Leliana or Zevran), and 1 mage (Morrigan and Wynne) makes perfect sense.  That's exactly what how the game distributes the supporting cast!

It's been said before, but I think Bioware games just traditionally favour magic users.  I guess it's because they have a steeper learning curve, so they reward you by giving them greater potential.  But I just found mages to be the best from beginning to end, really.

Stahlbart wrote...

Anyone any ideas on my party mentioned above? (Me - cunning based archer rogue [wanna keep that], Morrigan, Sten, Zevran.)
I want to pep that up and go alternative ways. I have tons of ideas, but not with that constellation and the fact that I want to focus on my pc.
Suggestions?


I hear what you're saying about keeping the focus on your PC.  Especially with Morrigan, the way she's built with her Storm of the Century combo in easy reach makes her the true hero of Ferelden, overshadowing the PC...she just deals so much damage, especially in the Final Battle.  That said, in fairness she dealt a good deal of friendly fire, so here's my suggestion.

The opportunity cost for Morrigan to become the Storm of the Century expert is substantial.  I went this route because she had already a few of the pre-requisites, but she could have equally gone with some other spells, which will suit your Rogue Archer better.  These are Sleep and Waking Nightmare, which are great spells.  I would also get Cone of Cold and Blizzard sheerly for their immense crowd control value...there were many times I wished I brought an Archer sheerly because Blizzard is great for holding enemies, but it prevents melee characters from getting in close.  That'll leave you some spells to get the whole Psychic line for Crushing Prison.

Instead of Sten, I would get Wynne.  She's a great healer as is (in fact, I found the healing spells she starts with the best already), which allows you to invest the rest of her talent points freely.  If you want to be frugal, complete her Earth spell line.  A better alternative is to get the Glyphs, especially the Glyph of Repulsion (you'll love that for your Archers).  If you want to go all out, I suggest going for the Ice line (duplicating Morrigan).  But in every scenario, again go for the full Psychic line for Mind Blast at the start and Crushing Prison at the end.

Zevran's fine.  He's good to have as inevitably some enemies will slip past your Blizzard and/or Glyph defenses, targeting your mages.  He'll clean up those stragglers.

This is how I see it playing out.  Your character starts the battle with a Shattering Shot.  Wynne drops a Glyph of Repulsion while Morrigan takes a moment to cast Blizzard.  Zevran starts with a bow, then switches to dual weapons as enemies reach your mages, doing a lot of backstabbing.  Those spells are important as you lack a dedicated tank, so magic will be your form of crowd control.

This combination is pretty effective IMHO as I do it with my 3 mage + Shale party.  The best thing is that Morrigan remains very useful without dominating the party, focusing on assisting your PC's archery.

Just my advice.  I'm starting a Rogue Archer build myself, but I have a lot of experience with mages.  Take it with a grain of salt as you can see I have a preference for mages.

#23
Stahlbart

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Alright, I don't know why you throw this whole "storm of the century" debate in, but ok. She's my healer, as mentioned above. So that's not the problem. The problem is my hero auto-attacking around while I have to control my party most of the time instead of focusing on my pc in battle. Not only that, but he should be the one killing the bad guys, not his companions. You know what I mean?



So no storm of the century, no Wynne and no "standard" backstabbing Zevran. Sorry, but I think you didn't get my point.



The thing with keeping the enemies away from my archer is quite a good idea. I thought about making Morrigan a full shapeshifter, but taking the role as debuffer/protector sounds good. Maybe I'll give Sten a crossbow for supporting me an S&S if someone comes through Morrigans spells. Zev could be singing again. The "stun song". Don't know the english term, sorry.



Concerning mages: Have a setup right now of me (Bloodmage), Morrigan (heal/buff), Alistair (2H-Tank), Leliana (singing the "stun" song) and dog via extra dog slot mod. Ridiculously easy. And that's not because I have dog as a fifth team member. It's the mages. Three of them? Darkspawn wouldn't have time to draw their weapons. No, I don't like taht idea for being just too easy. And I play on nightmare only.

#24
mousestalker

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Solo it then. Or try running it with only a pocket healer (Wynne, Shale or Morrigan, your choice). To ramp the difficulty up even more, run the game with your character and Leliana and Zevran both set to passive and stealthed.

#25
Stahlbart

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You didn't get me either. Sorry to ask, but is my english that bad that nobody understands? That's a serious question!

I have no problem with the game itself. Like I said, I have tons of ideas, but I want to play with THIS party as cunning based archer. That's the point. I didn't want to complain on how easy the game is, just responding to Zombie Chows post that was kinda disturbing to me for I don't know why he talks about storm of the century and changing the party, which I just do not want.
Like I said, maybe I'm just not able to express my self or understand you guys. Sorry for that if that's the case.

Modifié par Stahlbart, 10 février 2011 - 03:29 .