522 réponses à ce sujet

[Aeowyn]

Really? Because what I take from Miranda is that she's pragmatic and leaves little room for mistakes. She makes sure to have all her bases covered before she goes on a mission, so her wearing armour WOULD make sense for her, without changing anything about her confidence or intellectuality.

[Val Seleznyov]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Val Seleznyov wrote...

Aeowyn wrote...
But how would Miranda change at all if she was wearing armour? A woman's intellectuality and personality does not all of a sudden blend out just because she's forced to wear a hardsuit in combat.

What i take from Miranda is that she is extremely capable, extremely confident, and believes strongly in image.

Her proficiency in combat coupled with her confidence results in her making concessions when it comes to practicality, in order to sate her desire to look the way she wants to.

This says a lot about her and should be respected. We shouldn't be doing anything to remove that confidence, and she shouldn't have to cover up because perverts like ieldra cannot avert their gaze.

Actually, no. Miranda would not make concessions to practicality in order to project a sexy image in a combat situation. That's unprofessional and stupid, it could cost her her life. What you're saying is that Miranda is overconfident to the point of stupidity. With that attitude, she wouldn't have survived the "most dangerous and demanding operations" she has led for Cerberus.

What you're doing here is character derailment to justify the art style you prefer.

Miranda is overconfident to the point of endagering lives. Pay closer attention during suicide mission.

Try and put sex out of your mind, take your eyes off her ass, and focus on her mouth.

[Ieldra]

She takes every reasonable precaution and encourages you to think of the success of the mission first. Several times.

(1) She encourages you to do all the loyalty missions so that everyone is at their best if you start the SM before all of them are done.

(2) She discourages you from sending someone back with the crew because that could jeopardize the mission

(3) She tells you in her romance that the mission is too important to let personal feelings interfere. She's ready to sacrifice her own happiness for the mission.



Just a few instances of Miranda's professionalism at the drop of a hat. I could find more. As for your last comment, I suggest you read some of my posts in the Miranda thread. What do you mean to achieve with these insults?

[Ieldra]

Aeowyn wrote...

Really? Because what I take from Miranda is that she's pragmatic and leaves little room for mistakes. She makes sure to have all her bases covered before she goes on a mission, so her wearing armour WOULD make sense for her, without changing anything about her confidence or intellectuality.

QFT

[Val Seleznyov]

Oh, after this gem "As for our earlier disagreement, it's no surprise to me that the distinction between "stylish sexy" and "cheap sexy" escapes you." i just assumed that you wanted to drag the discussion down to the realm of personal insults - though your comments genuinely do paint you as kind of a pervert.



Every example you will find will pertain to her suggesting Shepard take a specific action. When it comes to her own ability, she doesn't seem to have such concerns.



- volunteering herself to lead one team member to a glorious death as head of the strike team.

- volunteering herself to create the biotic bubble, resulting in yet another death.



She wanted the team to be strong, and she didn't want Shepard's mind taken off the mission. There is nothing to suggest that she calls her own ability into question (hence the reason she fights in high heels) - in fact she greatly exaggerates it.

[Flamewielder]

To imply that Bioware creative artists are incapable of designing individualized and character-defining armor/enviro suit is utter non-sense. Worse, it's an insult to their creative talent...

I'm NOT interested in ME1 generic-looking armor, nor am I going to stay silent about elements that jar someone out of the sci-fi immersion the developers intended to offer with ME.

Armor can be character-defining (just as spandex can) and aesthetically appealing and still look believable. It can be just as iconic as the N7 is. Grunt, Garrus and Zaeed had a great look to begin with. I'd go so far as saying Miri's latest look and Samara would have been perfect (if they'd lost the high heels and cleavage).

Shepard had casual and armor looks. The squaddies should have had the same. That, and helmet toggle. The squaddies armor don't even have to be customizable to look good.

Modifié par Flamewielder, 06 février 2011 - 04:34 .

[Village_Idiot]

Val Seleznyov wrote...

- volunteering herself to create the biotic bubble, resulting in yet another death.

A valid point, though having said that, no-one could anticipate how long the shield would need to be sustained. It does demonstrate her over-confidence however.

Val Seleznyov wrote...

-volunteering herself to lead one team member to a glorious death as head of the strike team.

An invalid point. Miranda is as adept in the "leader" role on the SM as any of the other correct choices (Garrus, Jacob).

Suffice to say I agree that all party members should be wearing some kind of armour during combat (yes this includes you, Thane and Mordin). Why Miranda gets singled out is beyond me.

Edited for clarity.

Modifié par Shadrach 88, 06 février 2011 - 04:39 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Val Seleznyov wrote...

 the reason she fights in high heels

The reason she fights in high heels is that BioWare thought it was cool.

But the fact is that it's not cool at all. It's retarded. Simple as that, no Codex involved.

[Ieldra]

Val Seleznyov wrote...
- volunteering herself to lead one team member to a glorious death as head of the strike team.

In case you didn't know: she is a good Fire Team leader. If loyal Miranda leads the Fire Team, nobody will die. Besides, she is the only one to recommend anything to Shepard and makes one mistake - if you interpret it as such. For she never says she's the best for the role, she only says she - and any other biotic - could do it. She doesn't single herself out as superior. 
BTW she never says she's perfect. "I make mistakes like everyone else, and when I do, the consequences are severe". She's very aware she can fail, and does her best to ensure the mission doesn't fail.

But this is getting seriously OT. Let's get back to the armor topic.

[Ieldra]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Val Seleznyov wrote...
 the reason she fights in high heels

The reason she fights in high heels is that BioWare thought it was cool.

But the fact is that it's not cool at all. It's retarded. Simple as that, no Codex involved.

QFT.

[Val Seleznyov]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Val Seleznyov wrote...

 the reason she fights in high heels

The reason she fights in high heels is that BioWare thought it was cool.

But the fact is that it's not cool at all. It's retarded. Simple as that, no Codex involved.

Well, sure. We could look at anything in the Mass Effect universe and just think "oh yeah, this happened because BioWare created it this way", i prefer to look at it as a living breathing universe though. The Rachni were wiped out because the Reapers indoctrinated them into attacking other species in my mind, not because BioWare wrote it.

I like to think that Miranda is capable of dressing herself. There is more than ample material in the game to justify her dress sense.

Back on the topic of armour: It would only serve to visually stunt Mass Effect 3. It's not needed.

[tigrina]

Val Seleznyov wrote...

Back on the topic of armour: It would only serve to visually stunt Mass Effect 3. It's not needed.

That is in your opinion. I would like to see proper armor for all squad members, because for me it makes way more sense. The lack of proper armor detracts me of the feeling being in an actual fight within this universe. I couldn't care less about certain assets of certain squad members, and thus don't want to have them thrown in my face when in combat even.

[Ieldra]

@Val:
There is story, and there is artistic license. Not every artistic choice is meant to be taken seriously as a worldbuilding issue. The Rule of Sexy and the Rule of Cool are the most frequent reasons to let plausbility take a backseat when designing the looks of characters and equipment. Their influence can be seen clearly in the design of various aspects of the ME universe, from certain outfits to the appearace of the asari, even the design of the SR2.

We're not meant to take those things seriously, we're meant to appreciate them visually but overlook them when it comes to plausibility. Trying to justify those artistic choices in terms of worldbuilding or characterization can only lead to misinterpretation.

This thread is about the question: How far should the artistic license go? How small of a backseat should plausibility take? ME2 is clearly more visually appealing than ME1, but in the opinion of - as it seems - a majority on this forum, they went too far with sacrificing plausibility. So far that many people cannot overlook the implausibility any longer, and that will adversely affect our enjoyment of the world and the story.

Absence of protective cover in combat makes *no* sense at all. Maybe we would have been able to overlook that in the spirit of appreciating the cool and the sexy, but it came with high heels in combat and exposed skin in space. Sorry, Wall Banger. That level of ridiculous doesn't work. 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 06 février 2011 - 05:18 .

[Il Divo]

Even taking into account that this is intended as science fiction, this never really bothered me. Mass Effect's armor, imo, was a bigger issue due to its generic design. I do think that some characters (Samara, Miranda) need a change of clothes, but simply because it looks stupid. Others (Thane, Mordin, etc) don't bother me as much because they are less obvious attempts at sex appeal.

This was actually one reason why I kept most of the Kotor party in their starter outfits, despite the lack of stats; Mission, Canderous, Carth, looked alot more iconic in the starting attire than the unfitting armor. I didn't mind that Canderous was walking around in a sleeveless vest because it seemed to suit him, same for most of Mass Effect 2's cast.

Modifié par Il Divo, 06 février 2011 - 05:22 .

[Val Seleznyov]

Yes. Miranda is certainly not portrayed as competent or confident, and she clearly has absolutely no interest in style or her own appearance at all.



If you seriously don't think that her outfit extends her personality somewhat, then we're on vastly different planes of existence and should probably just stop communicating. Thankfully the developers seem to be more in tune with my line of thinking. Long may that continue... it will result in a better computer game.

[Ieldra]

Val, that I don't agree with one extremist opinion does not mean I automatically support the other extreme.



Miranda's outfit was meant to accentuate the "femme fatale" aspect of her character, but it failed miserably because (1) it doesn't look stylish enough for a femme fatale, and (2) outside of the romance, ME2 presents us only with situations where her sexual appeal and femme fatale aspect is of no importance whatsoever. Which means, that her wearing that outfit appears cheap, inappropriate and impractical. At the same time, Miranda is clearly portrayed as being competent, intelligent and practical as well as aware of style, so there is a disparity here.



Now, I can do two things: accept that she chose to wear that outfit and sacrifice her intelligence and practicality and most of all, her sense of style, or or accept that that outfit is artistically misapplied. Given Miranda's charaterization in every other respect than the visual I find it more plausible to assume the latter.

[close2myheart]

tigrina wrote...

Val Seleznyov wrote...
Back on the topic of armour: It would only serve to visually stunt Mass Effect 3. It's not needed.

That is in your opinion. I would like to see proper armor for all squad members, because for me it makes way more sense. The lack of proper armor detracts me of the feeling being in an actual fight within this universe. I couldn't care less about certain assets of certain squad members, and thus don't want to have them thrown in my face when in combat even.

+1 for tigrina

[AdmiralCheez]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Val, that I don't agree with one extremist opinion does not mean I automatically support the other extreme.

Miranda's outfit was meant to accentuate the "femme fatale" aspect of her character, but it failed miserably because (1) it doesn't look stylish enough for a femme fatale, and (2) outside of the romance, ME2 presents us only with situations where her sexual appeal and femme fatale aspect is of no importance whatsoever. Which means, that her wearing that outfit appears cheap, inappropriate and impractical. At the same time, Miranda is clearly portrayed as being competent, intelligent and practical as well as aware of style, so there is a disparity here.

Now, I can do two things: accept that she chose to wear that outfit and sacrifice her intelligence and practicality and most of all, her sense of style, or or accept that that outfit is artistically misapplied. Given Miranda's charaterization in every other respect than the visual I find it more plausible to assume the latter.

QFT, baby.

[Val Seleznyov]

Well, i don't really agree with you at all.



The white outfit gives off a very clinical vibe to me, which the hexagonal pattern accentuates. It's like a more sultry version of a lab coat, and i actually kind of like it. The logo positioning helps give off a more official impression, and the cut isn't particularly revealing at all.



My sense of style puts me in the upper-most income tax bracket, so forgive me if i don't bow to your opinions on taste. But by all means, feel free to do whatever you want. Just don't try to force it on me; i know what i'm talking about.

[AdmiralCheez]

Val Seleznyov wrote...

Well, i don't really agree with you at all.

The white outfit gives off a very clinical vibe to me, which the hexagonal pattern accentuates. It's like a more sultry version of a lab coat, and i actually kind of like it. The logo positioning helps give off a more official impression, and the cut isn't particularly revealing at all.

A more "sultry" version of a labcoat?

Explains why TIM hired Kelly, at least.

My sense of style puts me in the upper-most income tax bracket, so forgive me if i don't bow to your opinions on taste. But by all means, feel free to do whatever you want. Just don't try to force it on me; i know what i'm talking about.

I lol'd.  I lol'd hard.

[Aeowyn]

Val Seleznyov wrote...
My sense of style puts me in the upper-most income tax bracket, so forgive me if i don't bow to your opinions on taste. But by all means, feel free to do whatever you want. Just don't try to force it on me; i know what i'm talking about.

Eh, and we don't? It's belitteling comments like these that makes it difficult for us to actually take you and your opinions seriously.

[Val Seleznyov]

Aeowyn wrote...

Val Seleznyov wrote...
My sense of style puts me in the upper-most income tax bracket, so forgive me if i don't bow to your opinions on taste. But by all means, feel free to do whatever you want. Just don't try to force it on me; i know what i'm talking about.

Eh, and we don't? It's belitteling comments like these that makes it difficult for us to actually take you and your opinions seriously.

What's belittling about it? Ieldra tries quite hard to give the impression that he's speaking from some kind of position of authority, i'm quite open about the fact that i'm speaking from personal taste.

[Village_Idiot]

I don't take offense at the ME2 squad's fashion taste. What they wear outside of missions should be reflective of their personalities, as you've said repeatedly about Miranda. What I do take offense at is that my team is willing to throw themselves into heated firefights wearing little more than either a lab coat, a catsuit, or a leather jacket. It's immersion-breaking considering ME's supposedly hard sci-fi base, and was handled far better in ME1 where team members wore armour during a mission, then switched back to civvies on the Normandy.

Modifié par Shadrach 88, 06 février 2011 - 06:48 .

[Val Seleznyov]

Shadrach 88 wrote...

I don't take offense at the ME2 squad's fashion taste. What they wear outside of missions should be reflective of their personalities, as you've said repeatedly about Miranda. What I do take offense at is that my team is willing to throw themselves into heated firefights wearing little more than either a lab coat, a catsuit, or a leather jacket. It's immersion-breaking considering ME's supposedly hard sci-fi base, and was handled far better in ME1 where team members wore armour during a mission, then switched back to civvies on the Normandy.

Yeah, well, you know what... fine. I get that in a thread like this i am always going to be outnumbered by those that dislike the direction taken in Mass Effect 2. It's like i'm Commander Shepard and you guys are the Reapers, blacking out the sky with your numbers.

I'm not going to just shut up and let you guys win though. I'm going to go to the games forums and rally the Mass Effect fans that don't post here, so the developers know that they didn't make a mistake and that they shouldn't change a thing for Mass Effect 3.

[biomag]

I care even little about what they wear in battle, just when you are in space - like so often mentioned - it really bothers me to see naked people or just plain skin. Same on toxic planets and such. That really ruins the atmosphere for me.



I also ain't a huge fan of Mr. "weapon-of-mass-destruction-on-my-back" in a bar, but well, that's Shep... without armor he feels naked even on shore leave...