140 réponses à ce sujet

[AkiKishi]

Xilizhra wrote...

If Nef had been male and everything else was exactly the same thing, there wouldn't be unfortunate implications in the game itself, only in the possible reactions of the players.

There is quite a lot of subtle lesbianism in ME2 just nothing overt this time. It seems like Inter-speciesism  should be more of a big deal. But that does not appear to cause any controversy at all.

[GodWood]

This topic makes me facepalm.

[Hyper Cutter]

I swear there were asari/woman and asari/asari couples among the background NPCs in ME1...

[JJ Long]

Nef was portrayed as sort of young and innocent. My guess is that she was used simply because it helped create further sympathy for her and her mother.

This might sound sexist, but I think it is easier for some to sympathize more with a female victim than a male victim.

Would it have hit you as emotionally if Morith's victim on Omega was that guy trying to get tickets to that concert?

[STG]

JJ Long wrote...

Nef was portrayed as sort of young and innocent. My guess is that she was used simply because it helped create further sympathy for her and her mother.
This might sound sexist, but I think it is easier for some to sympathize more with a female victim than a male victim.
Would it have hit you as emotionally if Morith's victim on Omega was that guy trying to get tickets to that concert?

Yeah that's true.

Also: TICKETS!

[Sentox6]

I hate to say it, but I feel the choice of Nef's gender had little to do with any intended implications on Asari/Female relationships and a whole lot to do with creating a more sympathetic victim.

Edit: whoo, I'm original

Modifié par Sentox6, 05 février 2011 - 10:52 .

[Suron]

jlb524 wrote...

Yeah...I've been complaining about this forever...it's ridiculous. Insulting!

Actually, we don't even see that many asari/asari relations...

are you serious? rhetorical....

how stupid.

take your politically correct bull**** and gtfo.  just gtfo.

Just because we may not see EVERY possible GODDAMN combination of races (which now extends to made-up races like Asari) colors, genders, etc in relationships/places of power/etc doesn't mean a ****ING THING and you can only be "insulted" if you're a pretencious moron who should off themselves anyway.

political correct bull****.

[marshalleck]

Suron wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

Yeah...I've been complaining about this forever...it's ridiculous. Insulting!

Actually, we don't even see that many asari/asari relations...

are you serious? rhetorical....

how stupid.

take your politically correct bull**** and gtfo.  just gtfo.

Just because we may not see EVERY possible GODDAMN combination of races (which now extends to made-up races like Asari) colors, genders, etc in relationships/places of power/etc doesn't mean a ****ING THING and you can only be "insulted" if you're a pretencious moron who should off themselves anyway.

political correct bull****.

u mad bro?

Modifié par marshalleck, 05 février 2011 - 11:13 .

[dreman9999]

This is not surpising. Samara her self stated that Morinth on time took over a village and was worshiped like a goddess. Morinth had the village bring  young asari  to her as sacrifices.

So what your bring up is not new.

[dreman9999]

On another note. Nef's not the only female human with an Asari .
Go to 3:35 of this video.

[Chuvvy]

Ryzaki wrote...

Silly Xilizhra. Asari aren't females they're monogendered asexuals!

Well we all know that. Because Shepard IS NOT GAY. She can just be sexually attracted to a species that looks exactly like human females. Not gay.

[Chuvvy]

JJ Long wrote...
This might sound sexist, but I think it is easier for some to sympathize more with a female victim than a male victim.

That's not sexist, not even close it's hardwired into male DNA. Protect the women and children. Why the hell do you think we let them get off the boat first?

[Flamewielder]

jlb524 wrote...
And Erinya is depicted as an irrational xenophobe...

...and Ashley would be a... rational xenophobe?  Mind you, I don't confuse xenophobia with racism as some poster seem to do. Being distrustful of/intimidated by other cultures is "only human". Effort is always required to open up to cross-cultural exchange and I certainly wouldn't blame a turian for looking out for his own people before charging to Earth to fight the Reapers in ME3...

But concerning Xilizhra's OP: Yes, I agree that the writers likely made up Nef's story to portray Morinth as a monster; by monster, I mean a person that preys on people as if they were food; like a beast but without the excuse of lacking self-awareness... Reapers fall pretty much in the same category, considering how insignificant individual lives are to them. Granted, Reapers do it on a massive scale... and it's easy to treat a million deaths as a mere statistic. Does the fact that Morinth killed/fed on only hundreds make her less of a monster? Does her own perspective on these killings make them less amoral?

Had Nef been an impressionable male artist, the message would have been less powerful. Furthermore, Nef's mother's anguish was clearly intended to echo with Samara's own, as she is doomed to lose her own daughter as well. So yes, Nef's story is "contrived" to illustrate the writer's intent as to Morinth's nature: a monster. And it is the task of the Hero to fight Monsters. To force the Hero to kill a Monster who happens to be her Child is the stuff of classic tragedy.

I am saddened by Morinth and Samara's tragic fates, but I don't sympathize with Morinth. She is a victim of her A-Y condition and whatever choices she made when she ran, but it desn't excuse or ennoble her victims' death. She was intended as an antagonist in Samara's larger tale.

[Whatever42]

Slidell505 wrote...

JJ Long wrote...
This might sound sexist, but I think it is easier for some to sympathize more with a female victim than a male victim.

That's not sexist, not even close it's hardwired into male DNA. Protect the women and children. Why the hell do you think we let them get off the boat first?

Screw that. Outta my way, small weak people.

[Xilizhra]

Would it have hit you as emotionally if Morith's victim on Omega was that guy trying to get tickets to that concert?

Assuming he had some relative or other to be upset about it, yes.

Had Nef been an impressionable male artist, the message would have been less powerful. Furthermore, Nef's mother's anguish was clearly intended to echo with Samara's own, as she is doomed to lose her own daughter as well. So yes, Nef's story is "contrived" to illustrate the writer's intent as to Morinth's nature: a monster. And it is the task of the Hero to fight Monsters. To force the Hero to kill a Monster who happens to be her Child is the stuff of classic tragedy.

**** the message. Not only was it annoyingly one-sided, it was implemented in this obnoxious and tone-deaf way.

[jeweledleah]

or maybe Nef is a female because it shows just how powerful Morinth is? here's this obviously straight girl who doesn't have masculine visuals to go on for her attraction and yet she still falls for Morinth, hook line and sinker? Kinda illustrates just how dangerous of a predator Morinth is.



and I really hope that people could one day get over the fact that Mass Effect is predominantly straight universe and that includes the hero. its not a morality choice, no one is trying to say that gays are amoral or bad, its the choice the writers ultimately made of the story, regardless of the experimentation they did during development. its not always about homophobia and persecution and all that other jazz, sometimes people are just straight. I know its hard to believe, but it happens.

[Xilizhra]

and I really hope that people could one day get over the fact that Mass Effect is predominantly straight universe and that includes the hero.

Ahahahahaha

Not my hero.



In any case, I have no real objection to most of the non-asari being straight, nor do I have some kind of difficulty comprehending this. I do, however, think that everything to do with Morinth's implementation was failtastic and that this segment was failtastic in an insensitive way (as opposed to the one-sided throwaway character way they handled Morinth herself).

[Flamewielder]

What do you mean by tone-deaf?



We may not like the way a writer conveys his vision of a particular character, but the character is ultimately his/her creation. We, as reader/viewer/player only overlay our personal perception of the character over the writer's. It's fine and may even inspire some fascinating possibilities and "What if's".



I won't deny I admire Samara's character as such (not necessarily as a person). They make for interesting ethical debate and such... But when I analyse the characters, I see a clear intent on the writer's part to depict Morinth as a monster. There's deliberate effort to make Morinth irredeemable in both Codex entries and scripted dialogue. Morinth's a dark fusion of Peter Pan and Dracula... lethal, amoral and forever filled with adolescent rage at an unfair universe.



Does this change the fact that such beings are a threat to other sentient beings? No. Should the asari treat their A-Y better than they do? Absolutely. Their secret shame at the A-Y's existence is keeping them in monitored work progams or condemn them to seclusion or miserable lives on the margins of their society. Non-dangerous A-Y's deserve a better chance at happiness. Dangerous A-Y's, on the other hand, can only be isolated for the good of everyone else... or be hunted down if they run and start leaving a trail of destroyed lives behind them.

[Xilizhra]

The topic isn't really intended to criticize the implementation of Morinth herself, even though I think it was Goddess-awful on many levels. But when I said "tone-deaf" I meant that the story's single instance of lesbianism outside the monogendered race (initially, anyway, considering one particular LotSB video, but that DLC is superior to the main game in many ways indeed) is cliched lesbian vampire shlock. It's not worthy of crucifying the developers or accusing Bioware of institutionalized homophobia, but I think that it is worthy of the raised eyebrow that I gave it.

[jeweledleah]

Xilizhra wrote...

and I really hope that people could one day get over the fact that Mass Effect is predominantly straight universe and that includes the hero.

Ahahahahaha
Not my hero.

In any case, I have no real objection to most of the non-asari being straight, nor do I have some kind of difficulty comprehending this. I do, however, think that everything to do with Morinth's implementation was failtastic and that this segment was failtastic in an insensitive way (as opposed to the one-sided throwaway character way they handled Morinth herself).

its your fantasy, you can do whatever you want in your fantasy.  I often fantasize about things that cannot be, its fun.  but it doesnt' change the story that we're given, becasue ultimately its not our story, its Shepard's and bioware story.

I honestly don't think that Morinth was handled badly.  her fight with Samara and then conversation later if you chose to kill Morinth made me feel almost as bad about that choice as virmire decision, because even while I realize that Morinth is far too dangerous to let go unchecked, I still feel for her.

I'm not seeing it as an insensitive implementation.  the victim being young female doesn't make me feel like lesbianism is immoral, it makes me fear Morinth more and sympathize with Samara's quest a bit more.

[Siansonea]

There is a great asari/female pairing in the game. Liara/FemShep. I honestly never read anything into the Nef situation, and I guess I didn't notice the lack of asari/female human or female alien relationships. We don't see that many asari relationships to begin with. Other than "Blue Rose of Illium" and Morinth/Nef, I'm drawing a blank on others. There is the Matriarch Benezia/Matriarch Aethyta pairing, though the only evidence of that we see in the game is Liara. The b¡tchy Baria Frontiers representative on Illium is also an asari with another asari as a bondmate, though that asari died tragically on the quarian homeworld during the Geth Uprising/Morning War.

[Xilizhra]

its your fantasy, you can do whatever you want in your fantasy. I often fantasize about things that cannot be, its fun. but it doesnt' change the story that we're given, becasue ultimately its not our story, its Shepard's and bioware story.

Erm... as a quick heads-up, my Femshep is romancing Liara. I doubt that this qualifies her as "straight."

We don't see that many asari relationships to begin with. Other than "Blue Rose of Illium" and Morinth/Nef, I'm drawing a blank on others.

The salarian near the Illium souvenir shop is bonded to an asari, and there's also the asari/turian couple in the computer repair shop on the Citadel.

[jlb524]

Flamewielder wrote...

jlb524 wrote...
And Erinya is depicted as an irrational xenophobe...

...and Ashley would be a... rational xenophobe?

You should know that doesn't matter, as there are plenty of straight women shown as not-xenophobic to balance that out.   There aren't any good asari loving other asari/other female aliens to balance out Morinth, Erinya, etc.

Modifié par jlb524, 05 février 2011 - 06:03 .

[MarchWaltz]

Call Benson and Ice-T quick!

[Xilizhra]

MarchWaltz wrote...

Call Benson and Ice-T quick!

Wat?