122 réponses à ce sujet

[BloodPainter]

STG wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

they evolved into sapience. humans were once single celled creatures too, who eventually evolved into sapient organisms.

That's only if you believe in evolution.

this is gold. MOAR D8

[Ryzaki]

..This thread makes me want to commit genocide all right. On the Quarians. >_>

[wulf3n]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
I'm not saying that genocide is right by any means. I'm saying that it might not have been genocide by their standards.

But genocide isn't something thats questionable. It's not like morality which can have grey areas, it is the intentional killing of an entire species/race...period. the only way you could argue that it wasn't genocide was if you believe the geth aren't sentient, but both ME and the Quarians say it is, so thats a moot point.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

STG wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Philosophy has no place here. That is invalid.

Philosophy is the study of general and fundamental problems, such
as those connected with existence, knowledge, values, reason, mind, and language.
It is distinguished from other ways of addressing such problems by its
critical, generally systematic approach and its reliance on rational argument.

Philosophy is also beliefs and ideas thought up by someone (Socrates, Pythagoras, Confucius). Not everone is going to believe in what someone else thought.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

wulf3n wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
I'm not saying that genocide is right by any means. I'm saying that it might not have been genocide by their standards.

But genocide isn't something thats questionable. It's not like morality which can have grey areas, it is the intentional killing of an entire species/race...period. the only way you could argue that it wasn't genocide was if you believe the geth aren't sentient, but both ME and the Quarians say it is, so thats a moot point.

The Geth are a creation by the Quarians. Not a race.

[wulf3n]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
The Geth are a creation by the Quarians. Not a race.

But they have achieved sentience thereby making them a species.

[Rogue Unit]

The geth are, in fact, a race. They have sentience, they are a race.

IIRC the codex even lists them under Non-Council Races.

Modifié par Rogue Unit, 05 février 2011 - 08:13 .

[marshalleck]

wulf3n wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
The Geth are a creation by the Quarians. Not a race.

But they have achieved sentience thereby making them a species.

The word species is inherently biased toward organic forms of life, and I think it doesn't apply to the geth nor should it be applied to them, as it projects certain characteristics and connotations onto the geth which do not accurately reflect the nature of their existence. 

Modifié par marshalleck, 05 février 2011 - 08:16 .

[Ramirez Wolfen]

It depends on your viewpoint. The Quarians don't consider the Geth to be a race, and they are their creators. And becoming sentient through a mistake and questioning your intended purpose doesn't make you a race, especially if your a machine.

[Rogue Unit]

marshalleck wrote...

wulf3n wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
The Geth are a creation by the Quarians. Not a race.

But they have achieved sentience thereby making them a species.

The word species is inherently biased toward organic forms of life, and I think it doesn't apply to the geth nor should it be applied to them.

It's all semantics anyway. The geth are self-aware.

[BloodPainter]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

It depends on your viewpoint. The Quarians don't consider the Geth to be a race, and they are their creators. And becoming sentient through a mistake and questioning your intended purpose doesn't make you a race, especially if your a machine.

Modifié par BloodPainter, 05 février 2011 - 08:19 .

[wulf3n]

marshalleck wrote...
The word species is inherently biased toward organic forms of life, and I think it doesn't apply to the geth nor should it be applied to them.

But want you think in RL is ultimately irrelevant in the context of the game, as ME clearly states the geth are a species. Whether AI can truly be sentient is another matter, but it's like saying i don't believe  an "element" can lower the mass of certain things as well as give people telekinetic powers, because the game says it does, so in the context of the game it does.

[marshalleck]

Rogue Unit wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

wulf3n wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
The Geth are a creation by the Quarians. Not a race.

But they have achieved sentience thereby making them a species.

The word species is inherently biased toward organic forms of life, and I think it doesn't apply to the geth nor should it be applied to them.

It's all semantics anyway. The geth are self-aware.

Self-awareness has nothing to do with taxonomic rank, something which obviously cannot apply to a collective of intelligent programs. This is not a semantic argument. 

[Ryzaki]

The codex says the galaxy considers them a race. They're self aware, capable of thought and making their own decisions and reproduction. They're a species. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 05 février 2011 - 08:20 .

[Ramirez Wolfen]

They may be self-aware, but that doesn't mean that a creation can grant itself autonomy from its creator.

[marshalleck]

wulf3n wrote...

marshalleck wrote...
The word species is inherently biased toward organic forms of life, and I think it doesn't apply to the geth nor should it be applied to them.

But want you think in RL is ultimately irrelevant in the context of the game, as ME clearly states the geth are a species. Whether AI can truly be sentient is another matter, but it's like saying i don't believe  an "element" can lower the mass of certain things as well as give people telekinetic powers, because the game says it does, so in the context of the game it does.

The meaning of "species" in the Mass Effect universe did not change. Species is a category of taxonomic ranking reserved for biological organisms which can breed with each other. Obviously this word is not appropriate for application to the geth, since it fundmentally denies/defies what they are--sentient computer programs. 

[Ramirez Wolfen]

BloodPainter wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

It depends on your viewpoint. The Quarians don't consider the Geth to be a race, and they are their creators. And becoming sentient through a mistake and questioning your intended purpose doesn't make you a race, especially if your a machine.

Where are you finding these pictures? These are pretty funny.

[Ryzaki]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

They may be self-aware, but that doesn't mean that a creation can grant itself autonomy from its creator.

Right because the geth are totally reliant on the Quarians.

They don't even make their own decisions...oh wait.

[marshalleck]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

They may be self-aware, but that doesn't mean that a creation can grant itself autonomy from its creator.

Unless of course the creations can achieve autonomy for themselves, which the geth did. 

[wulf3n]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
They may be self-aware, but that doesn't mean that a creation can grant itself autonomy from its creator.

what does their autonomy have to do with anything? We're not arguing the about the geth wanting to leave, we're saying the quarians are screwed up in the head because they are willing to wipe out a new species, just so they don't get in trouble.

[marshalleck]

Why is this discussion being distributed between two three different threads? Pick one.

Modifié par marshalleck, 05 février 2011 - 08:33 .

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Ryzaki wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

They may be self-aware, but that doesn't mean that a creation can grant itself autonomy from its creator.

Right because the geth are totally reliant on the Quarians.

They don't even make their own decisions...oh wait.

The Quarians have rightful ownership of their creations, regardless of whether the Geth depends on the creators or not.

[Rogue Unit]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

They may be self-aware, but that doesn't mean that a creation can grant itself autonomy from its creator.

Right because the geth are totally reliant on the Quarians.

They don't even make their own decisions...oh wait.

The Quarians have rightful ownership of their creations, regardless of whether the Geth depends on the creators or not.

Which is fine and dandy, until their creation becomes self-aware. Then it's slavery.

[marshalleck]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

They may be self-aware, but that doesn't mean that a creation can grant itself autonomy from its creator.

Right because the geth are totally reliant on the Quarians.

They don't even make their own decisions...oh wait.

The Quarians have rightful ownership of their creations, regardless of whether the Geth depends on the creators or not.

"rightful ownership" is meaningless when they lack the ability to enforce their will upon the geth. 

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Rogue Unit wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

They may be self-aware, but that doesn't mean that a creation can grant itself autonomy from its creator.

Right because the geth are totally reliant on the Quarians.

They don't even make their own decisions...oh wait.

The Quarians have rightful ownership of their creations, regardless of whether the Geth depends on the creators or not.

Which is fine and dandy, until their creation becomes self-aware. Then it's slavery.

It's not slavery. They were the Quarians creation. The Quarians can do with them as they wish.