361 réponses à ce sujet

[Ninotchka]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Ninotchka wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I don't understand this - blood magic isn't evil. Why wouldn't your Warden from the Circle make use of it to combat the darkspawn? I can understand if you choose another specialization, but I don't see why you'd think it's "evil," especially when the Chantry labels mages as cursed and makes it seem as though all magic is evil.

You don't have to understand it, that's just how I feel. My thoughts about blood magic within my own game supersede your thoughts/ideas about blood magic.

Your opinion doesn't supercede the fact that it isn't evil, though. Magic isn't evil - people can misuse it, just like they can misuse any power or weapon at their disposal, but that doesn't make it evil.

And the pontification continues....

You have your opinions about blood magic, I have mine. Get over it.

[Sarah1281]

Xilizhra wrote...



Also, if you'd tried to run away with him, I doubt he'd have stopped you. The game just didn't give you an option to do so.

You seem to be forgetting the fact that, unlike Jowan, your phylactery is no longer at the Circle so you wouldn't get far. I think Jowan might actually say something to that effect.

[Xilizhra]

Oh, right. I suppose that's why he didn't make the offer.

[antigravitycat]

LobselVith8 wrote...

She's pragmatic, that's why she always advocates choosing options that enpower the Warden. Also, she wants to save the Warden because she's either a good friend (to the point of being a sister) or she's in love with him. If the relationship is much cooler, it's the sole reason that she wants to preserve one of the remaining mysteries of the world from extinction.

Yes, following a pragmatic idea serving only herself and unscrupulous in the accomplishment.

This may surprise you, but some people take murder attempts a little more seriously than others, especially when the attempted murder makes no sense. Morrigan has an opinion? Wynne tries to kill the Warden. The Warden thinks Cullen is right? Warden has to die, but she won't do anything if Greagoir decides that the Circle needs to be culled. The ashes are ruined? Then let's murder the last hope for Ferelden because the Urn is no more. Better that everyone in Ferelden die at the hands of the darkspawn because the Urn is gone instead of focusing on the goal of stopping the Blight.

I argumented on that above, you do not agree I see. Fine, but I think you did not take a closer look on my suggestion on perspective I think. All this is debatable to some extend of course.

Yet she has no problem disregarding the safety and lives of the children because Morrigan voiced her opinion. It's also "false" of Wynne to disapprove if the Warden doesn't like the Circle when she later agrees with the Warden (of the Circle of Ferelden) that it's an oppressive place.

That I agree with, but I do not blame that on the character Wynne, more on the developers who were maybe a bit too lazy and did not add dialog line like "lets go to the other room and sort this out". Rather "lol". Edit: oppressive ofc, but that should keep her from protecting the ones held in it? Hmm...

Wrong. Uldred used demonology, not blood magic, and the oppressed will always seek to free themselves. After all, Andraste didn't write the Imperium a strongly worded letter when she wanted to free her people. Why should the mages?

Blood Magic is taught by Demons. The game does not mention demonology. Demons and associations with it are always referred to as Blood Magic.
It is vague and the game provides not much I would say, would be nice to know more exact facts.

[...]
So better to let everyone in Ferelden die at the hands of the darkspawn because of the loss of some lyrium enchanced Urn?

Well I was going over that in my post above, I won't do it again, sorry. ^^

I think there are some intriguing decisions that force the player to decide how they want to leave the world and what sort of person they are - the decision with the Anvil and the choice to spare the Architect come to mind. The golems beat back the first Archdemon Dumat and gave the dwarven kingdoms a hundred years of peace, while the Architect could endanger women and humanity as a whole because of his desire to provide darkspawn with intelligence. It's a matter of perspective, of course, what the correct decision is.

Yep, often it come down to whether you want to make utilitarists decisions or not.

Modifié par antigravitycat, 09 février 2011 - 07:18 .

[LobselVith8]

Ninotchka wrote...

And the pontification continues....

You have your opinions about blood magic, I have mine. Get over it.

Get over what? How you view a certain class of magic as evil? The same class of magic responsible for creating the Grey Warden you play as in the first place?

The Water God wrote...

Blood magic was originally used by the Trevinter Imperium to rule over Thedas. According to the Chantry it also led to the blackening of the Golden city and the creation of Darkspawn. '

They certainly used this opinion to control the mages of Thedas. Looks like it's worked out pretty well for the Chantry.

The Water God wrote...

Blood magic can be fueled by the casters own blood or life force, as well as someone elses which is usually obtained from a willing or unwilling sacrafices. A mage then has the potential to use it to control minds.

Blood magic is not evil when its used to fight off the Darkspawn. But in the hands of an everday mage? Yes its incredibly dangerous. More dangerous then all of the other magics combined.

In the hands of the everyday mage? The typical Circle mage is basically imprisoned to a system where they have the same limited choices as any prisoner. Blood magic isn't an option for them. While we can rally against it's use because of the Tevinters, we also can see how blood magic is the reason why Grey Wardens even exist in the first place. Without blood magic, the Blights would never come to an end.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 09 février 2011 - 07:32 .

[Sarah1281]

Blood Magic is taught by Demons. The game does not mention demonology. Demons and associations with it are always referred to as Blood Magic.

It is vague and the game provides not much I would say, would be nice to know more exact facts.

There is a pretty clear difference in simply using blood magic (which can be learned, as Jowan did, from a source other than a demon but that is often taught by demons since the Chantry banned it) which is what most of the rebellion used and actually getting possessed like Uldred did. The rebellion was in chaos even for the rebellers when you showed up because Uldred wasn't making sense and demons started appearing everywhere (summoned by possessed!Uldred). I still think it would have ended badly for those rebelling but there would have been a lot less senseless torture and deaths had Uldred not gotten himself possessed.

[Sarah1281]

The Water God wrote...



Blood magic was originally used by the Trevinter Imperium to rule over Thedas. According to the Chantry it also led to the blackening of the Golden city and the creation of Darkspawn. '

Well...technically the Chantry claims that the Maker was pissed that Tevinter mages dared to enter the Golden City (admittedly through blood magic) and their mere mortal presence somehow instantly turned it into the Black City forever because the Maker either can't turn it back in which case he's some god or doesn't want to turn it back. As the Maker was angry at this one specific group of mages, he turned them into darkspawn. Pretty horrible but still punishing the guilt party. What does he do then? Unleashes them on an unsuspecting and innocent world as mankinds punishment for centuries if not millennia. When even the Maker's own worshippers think the Maker is such a horrible entity, he's probably kind of a horrible entity.



Oh, and that's just the Chantry's opinion on where darkspawn came from. Given that the Chantry was founded by followers of a woman whose main goal in life was to bring down the Tevinter Imperium and mages (and their blood magic) ruled the Imperium, it's not surprising that they chose to blame the single biggest threat to life on Thedas on the mages.

[LobselVith8]

antigravitycat wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

She's pragmatic, that's why she always advocates choosing options that enpower the Warden. Also, she wants to save the Warden because she's either a good friend (to the point of being a sister) or she's in love with him. If the relationship is much cooler, it's the sole reason that she wants to preserve one of the remaining mysteries of the world from extinction.

Yes, following a pragmatic idea serving only herself and unscrupulous in the accomplishment.

That comment makes absolutely no sense. Morrigan advocates options that enpower the Grey Warden, not herself. How exactly does sparing the Anvil serve her? How does the blood ritual of Caldrius serve her? She doesn't advise the Warden to choose paths that serve only herself - the only two options that even concern Morrigan are her asking the Warden to kill her mother before she takes over her body, and wanting to spare an Old God from extinction. Neither of those options enpower her. The latter is about preserving the last of three remaining Old Gods from certain annihilation.

antigravitycat wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

This may surprise you, but some people take murder attempts a little more seriously than others, especially when the attempted murder makes no sense. Morrigan has an opinion? Wynne tries to kill the Warden. The Warden thinks Cullen is right? Warden has to die, but she won't do anything if Greagoir decides that the Circle needs to be culled. The ashes are ruined? Then let's murder the last hope for Ferelden because the Urn is no more. Better that everyone in Ferelden die at the hands of the darkspawn because the Urn is gone instead of focusing on the goal of stopping the Blight.

I argumented on that above, you do not agree I see. Fine, but I think you did not take a closer look on my suggestion on perspective I think. All this is debatable to some extend of course.

Wynne trying to murder the Warden isn't debatable. She tries to kill the Warden, it's as simple as that. You're welcome to excuse the murder attempts, but I see no reason why others should if they chose not to.

antigravitycat wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Yet she has no problem disregarding the safety and lives of the children because Morrigan voiced her opinion. It's also "false" of Wynne to disapprove if the Warden doesn't like the Circle when she later agrees with the Warden (of the Circle of Ferelden) that it's an oppressive place.

That I agree with, but I do not blame that on the character Wynne, more on the developers who were maybe a bit too lazy and did not add dialog line like "lets go to the other room and sort this out". Rather "lol". Edit: oppressive ofc, but that should keep her from protecting the ones held in it? Hmm...

Then why doesn't she protect them from Knight-Commander Greagoir and the templars? Why doesn't she even argue with Greagoir and Irving to spare the Circle when she's willing to kill the Warden over it?

antigravitycat wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Wrong. Uldred used demonology, not blood magic, and the oppressed will always seek to free themselves. After all, Andraste didn't write the Imperium a strongly worded letter when she wanted to free her people. Why should the mages?

Blood Magic is taught by Demons. The game does not mention demonology. Demons and associations with it are always referred to as Blood Magic.
It is vague and the game provides not much I would say, would be nice to know more exact facts.

Demonology isn't blood magic. Blood magic concerns using blood instead of lyrium. Demonology focuses on summoning demons. They're two different schools of magic, and no one in the novels or the games ever even suggests that the two schools of magic are even related.

antigravitycat wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I think there are some intriguing decisions that force the player to decide how they want to leave the world and what sort of person they are - the decision with the Anvil and the choice to spare the Architect come to mind. The golems beat back the first Archdemon Dumat and gave the dwarven kingdoms a hundred years of peace, while the Architect could endanger women and humanity as a whole because of his desire to provide darkspawn with intelligence. It's a matter of perspective, of course, what the correct decision is.

Yep, often it come down to whether you want to make utilitarists decisions or not.

One could argue that the golems having the potential to save the dwarves from extinction outweight the moral cost of creating them, or killing the Architect to spare women from being turned into Broodmothers for the Disciples or avoiding a likely war with intelligent darkspawn. It's all an issue of what you think is the correct path to take for your Warden.

[Exile Isan]

Demonology is mentioned in the game, Nial tells the PC that Uldred must have dabbled in it when the Warden mets him in the Fade.

[antigravitycat]

@LobselVith8
When you question Morrigan shortly before the DR she will confess that all she did was to ensure that the Warden can confront the Archdemon. So yes, on marginal decisions she would surely want to make sure that the Warden survives and even better: gets stronger. So that he can succeed in killing the Archdemon and act out the plan. She still follows the base plan there, the DR and the capturing of the Old God's soul. Why she intends to have that child and what she will with we do not know. Why would she keep even the Warden as a father from the child? The little information Morrigan gave you about it, you would have any reason to doubt her, after she gave so many players the runaround.

Sarah1281 wrote...

Blood Magic is taught by Demons. The game does not mention demonology. Demons and associations with it are always referred to as Blood Magic.
It is vague and the game provides not much I would say, would be nice to know more exact facts.

There is a pretty clear difference in simply using blood magic (which can be learned, as Jowan did, from a source other than a demon but that is often taught by demons since the Chantry banned it) which is what most of the rebellion used and actually getting possessed like Uldred did. The rebellion was in chaos even for the rebellers when you showed up because Uldred wasn't making sense and demons started appearing everywhere (summoned by possessed!Uldred). I still think it would have ended badly for those rebelling but there would have been a lot less senseless torture and deaths had Uldred not gotten himself possessed.

I wonder if Uldred used Blood Magic before his possession. If that maybe even forwarded his possession? The possessed Uldred at least uses Blood Magic to turn the remaining mages into abominations, that is why you need the Litany of Andralla, which prevents casting of Blood Magic spells. At least that shows a close link between Blood Magic and that so called "demonology".

[LobselVith8]

antigravitycat wrote...

@LobselVith8
When you question Morrigan shortly before the DR she will confess that all she did was to ensure that the Warden can confront the Archdemon. So yes, on marginal decisions she would surely want to make sure that the Warden survives and even better: gets stronger.

Gaider already revealed that there was a scene cut for time where Morrigan admitted that the DR was about more than that. You can see it in the David Gaider/Aimo comic.

antigravitycat wrote...

So that he can succeed in killing the Archdemon and act out the plan. She still follows the base plan there, the DR and the capturing of the Old God's soul. Why she intends to have that child and what she will with we do not know. Why would she keep even the Warden as a father from the child? The little information Morrigan gave you about it, you would have any reason to doubt her, after she gave so many players the runaround.

I'm guessing the templars hunting her down because they think she's a blood mage in Witch Hunt tells us all we need to know about why she wouldn't be out in the public eye; she's smart enough to figure out that being an illegal mage in an anti-mage society is a bad thing, especially when the templars only answer to an anti-mage religious order, and she shouldn't endanger herself or her child by being reckless.

antigravitycat wrote...
 
I wonder if Uldred used Blood Magic before his possession. If that maybe even forwarded his possession? The possessed Uldred at least uses Blood Magic to turn the remaining mages into abominations, that is why you need the Litany of Andralla, which prevents casting of Blood Magic spells. At least that shows a close link between Blood Magic and that so called "demonology".

That doesn't show a link between blood magic and demonology at all. Uldred tortured the mages to break their wills and used a ritual to turn them into abominations once this was accomplished, but this has nothing to do with Uldred using demonology at the beginning of the rebellion except for the end result of Uldred turning into an abomination. It's two seperate schools of magic - summoning demons isn't the same as using blood to fuel spells. Just because Uldred turned into an abomination because he was careless with his use of demonology doesn't mean it's related to blood magic.

[nos_astra]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Gaider already revealed that there was a scene cut for time where Morrigan admitted that the DR was about more than that. You can see it in the David Gaider/Aimo comic.

All you can see is that the ritual coincidentally helps her preserving her friend/lover, but she would go through with it anyway.

Just because Uldred turned into an abomination because he was careless with his use of demonology doesn't mean it's related to blood magic.

It's still very likely.

[Sarah1281]

I wonder if Uldred used Blood Magic before his possession. If that maybe even forwarded his possession? The possessed Uldred at least uses Blood Magic to turn the remaining mages into abominations, that is why you need the Litany of Andralla, which prevents casting of Blood Magic spells. At least that shows a close link between Blood Magic and that so called "demonology".

I think he did. If you go through Irving's study you get a codex entry that shows Irving praising Uldred for being so good sniffing out mages susceptible to blood magic (maybe he's the one who ratted out Jowan?) and given what happened it seems likely that Uldred was running an illicit blood mage ring under Irving's nose and got away with it because it was all in the name of 'catching' them.

[antigravitycat]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Gaider already revealed that there was a scene cut for time where Morrigan admitted that the DR was about more than that. You can see it in the David Gaider/Aimo comic.

Lol sure there is more about that, we all got that I think, but the game does not tell us more. So no way knowing more without having to fuel from sources outside the game's story.

I'm guessing the templars hunting her down because they think she's a blood mage in Witch Hunt tells us all we need to know about why she wouldn't be out in the public eye; she's smart enough to figure out that being an illegal mage in an anti-mage society is a bad thing, especially when the templars only answer to an anti-mage religious order, and she shouldn't endanger herself or her child by being reckless.

Yeah but I was thinking about her secrecy towards the Warden whatever his alignment may be when you play him/her. There is something behind it when not willing to open up her plans, something the Warden would not like in any way it seems.

That doesn't show a link between blood magic and demonology at all. Uldred tortured the mages to break their wills and used a ritual to turn them into abominations once this was accomplished, but this has nothing to do with Uldred using demonology at the beginning of the rebellion except for the end result of Uldred turning into an abomination. It's two seperate schools of magic - summoning demons isn't the same as using blood to fuel spells. Just because Uldred turned into an abomination because he was careless with his use of demonology doesn't mean it's related to blood magic.

I am sorry but you are a bit on the wrong way. An abominations is a living creature possessed by a demon. Uldred uses Blood Magic to turn Mages into abominations.
There is a strong link between Blood Magic and what you call demonology. Remember in your fight against Uldred? You use the Litany of Andralla to prevent Uldred casting Blood Magic which turns the Mages to abominations.

[USArmyParatrooper]

LobselVith8 wrote...

That comment makes absolutely no sense. Morrigan advocates options that enpower the Grey Warden, not herself. How exactly does sparing the Anvil serve her? How does the blood ritual of Caldrius serve her? She doesn't advise the Warden to choose paths that serve only herself - the only two options that even concern Morrigan are her asking the Warden to kill her mother before she takes over her body, and wanting to spare an Old God from extinction. Neither of those options enpower her. The latter is about preserving the last of three remaining Old Gods from certain annihilation.

.

You left out the part where you lose approval from Morrigan because you refuse to allow a Blood Mage to slaughter Elvin slaves in order to augment your own life force. You say good friend, I say horrible person. She loses approval everytime you do something nice for someone.

[LobselVith8]

klarabella wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Gaider already revealed that there was a scene cut for time where Morrigan admitted that the DR was about more than that. You can see it in the David Gaider/Aimo comic.

All you can see is that the ritual coincidentally helps her preserving her friend/lover, but she would go through with it anyway.

I'm guessing you didn't bother to read my post prior that already addressed that Morrigan will go through it anyway, and that in that case it's clearly about preserving one of the last mysteries of this world from exinction if there's no friendship or romantic involvement? I referenced the Aimo comic because the claim that Morrigan is merely "following a pragmatic idea serving only herself and unscrupulous in the accomplishment" has no basis in reality.

klarabella wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Just because Uldred turned into an abomination because he was careless with his use of demonology doesn't mean it's related to blood magic.

It's still very likely.

It doesn't mean it's very likely since it clearly doesn't require the use of blood.

USArmyParatrooper wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

That comment makes absolutely no sense. Morrigan advocates options that enpower the Grey Warden, not herself. How exactly does sparing the Anvil serve her? How does the blood ritual of Caldrius serve her? She doesn't advise the Warden to choose paths that serve only herself - the only two options that even concern Morrigan are her asking the Warden to kill her mother before she takes over her body, and wanting to spare an Old God from extinction. Neither of those options enpower her. The latter is about preserving the last of three remaining Old Gods from certain annihilation.

You left out the part where you lose approval from Morrigan because you refuse to allow a Blood Mage to slaughter Elvin slaves in order to augment your own life force. You say good friend, I say horrible person. She loses approval everytime you do something nice for someone.

First, I already addressed the blood ritual earlier in this thread. Second, Morrigan doesn't lose approval for letting Sten out or helping Jowan escape, so she clearly doesn't disapprove every time you do something nice. When she mentions about abandoning Redcliffe so they can focus on getting the other treaties r using the blood rritual to get more constitution or getting the Anvil, it's about enpowering the Warden and giving the Blight precedence over helping every stranger in need. She doesn't realize it's a game and that the Archdemon is going to be polite enough to wait until the Landsmeet is over before attacking.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 09 février 2011 - 12:49 .

[LobselVith8]

antigravitycat wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Gaider already revealed that there was a scene cut for time where Morrigan admitted that the DR was about more than that. You can see it in the David Gaider/Aimo comic.

Lol sure there is more about that, we all got that I think, but the game does not tell us more. So no way knowing more without having to fuel from sources outside the game's story.

In other words, she's clearly not doing the dark ritual for herself, which contradicts your prior claim. Lol yourself a valid theory this time. 

And even when the Warden pointed out she's an apostate to the templars in the deleted scene, she didn't try to kill the Warden - but Wynne will over some lyrium enchanced ashes or Morrigan having an opinion.

antigravitycat wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I'm guessing the templars hunting her down because they think she's a blood mage in Witch Hunt tells us all we need to know about why she wouldn't be out in the public eye; she's smart enough to figure out that being an illegal mage in an anti-mage society is a bad thing, especially when the templars only answer to an anti-mage religious order, and she shouldn't endanger herself or her child by being reckless.

Yeah but I was thinking about her secrecy towards the Warden whatever his alignment may be when you play him/her. There is something behind it when not willing to open up her plans, something the Warden would not like in any way it seems.

That must explain why she invites her romantic partner to enter the Eluvian with her.

antigravitycat wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

That doesn't show a link between blood magic and demonology at all. Uldred tortured the mages to break their wills and used a ritual to turn them into abominations once this was accomplished, but this has nothing to do with Uldred using demonology at the beginning of the rebellion except for the end result of Uldred turning into an abomination. It's two seperate schools of magic - summoning demons isn't the same as using blood to fuel spells. Just because Uldred turned into an abomination because he was careless with his use of demonology doesn't mean it's related to blood magic.

I am sorry but you are a bit on the wrong way. An abominations is a living creature possessed by a demon. Uldred uses Blood Magic to turn Mages into abominations.
There is a strong link between Blood Magic and what you call demonology. Remember in your fight against Uldred? You use the Litany of Andralla to prevent Uldred casting Blood Magic which turns the Mages to abominations.

Actually, your entire paragraph made absolutely no sense, yet again. An abomination is a mage possessed by a demon. They have access to the powers of a mage, unlike standard possessions of trees or corpses or people who aren't or weren't mages. That's why an Arcane Horror is more powerful than the other re-animated corpses. Simply because Uldred is an abomination who can use blood magic doesn't mean demonology and blood ritual are related. He became possessed because of demonology - he summons one too many demons and he could not control them. When he was an abomination, he had access to all his magical power when he was a mage. You keep referencing the Litany of Adralla as if it means something to support your theory - it doesn't. The Litany was written by a possible blood mage from Tevinter to prevent mind control. The Litany focuses on preventing the abomination from using mind control on the weakened mages.

Basically, demonology is about summing demons - like Averus does in the Warden's Keep. It isn't tied to blood magic, which concerns using blood to power spells. No evidence that the two schools of magic are related to one another.

[Marduksdragon]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Ninotchka wrote...

And the pontification continues....

You have your opinions about blood magic, I have mine. Get over it.

Get over what? How you view a certain class of magic as evil? The same class of magic responsible for creating the Grey Warden you play as in the first place?

Not just them, but somewhere in the Codex, Blood Magic was also used to create the Templars. That's how they can use the phylacteries to find renegade mages through their blood. It's not just being hopped up on lyrium.

While everyone is entitled to their opinion, you are the captain of your gameship as it were, but I think it's left deliberately ambiguous unless you buy everything the chantry is selling. I do think the fact you have to learn it from a demon in an unmodded game is unfair. While Uldred seems to have needed a demon (or somehow the delving into demonology -which is a book in the library I think, with the summoning magic- made him crave the blood magic--- also Shale's previous owner used demonology) Jowan had a book-- so, it follows, that other books exist. Also, given DLC, you have loyal if slightly crazy Gray Warden Avernus who could train a mage.

On Wynne, sometimes I like her (because, hey, she's a sexy confidant grandma who has a spirit shacking up in her body and lessons to teach us all lol) and sometimes I just groan and walk away. I do think that she's somewhat less focused on the Warden's goals and more on her own personal journey though-- but really it's mostly tied to Andraste's ashes. Being willing to murder Gray Wardens (because if Alistair is there, he gets attacked too) in a time of Blight over that is selfish. Do I hate her for it? No.

[antigravitycat]

LobselVith8 wrote...
[a lot about Morrigan]

When they are both in love she invites the Warden. But doesn't that completely contradict to what she claims all the time, that "love is important"? Seems like a bit like split personality. In the end, it depends very much on how you play the Warden. And by this it cannot serve as an argument for your standpoint.

LobselVith8 wrote...

Actually, your entire paragraph made absolutely no sense, yet again. An abomination is a mage possessed by a demon. They have access to the powers of a mage, unlike standard possessions of trees or corpses or people who aren't or weren't mages. That's why an Arcane Horror is more powerful than the other re-animated corpses. Simply because Uldred is an abomination who can use blood magic doesn't mean demonology and blood ritual are related. He became possessed because of demonology - he summons one too many demons and he could not control them. When he was an abomination, he had access to all his magical power when he was a mage. You keep referencing the Litany of Adralla as if it means something to support your theory - it doesn't. The Litany was written by a possible blood mage from Tevinter to prevent mind control. The Litany focuses on preventing the abomination from using mind control on the weakened mages.

Basically, demonology is about summing demons - like Averus does in the Warden's Keep. It isn't tied to blood magic, which concerns using blood to power spells. No evidence that the two schools of magic are related to one another.

So that makes no sense to you, fine. You should read the codex entry ingame and see that you are wrong. And btw. Blood Magic is about mind control, I copied the codex from the wiki, am I not nice? ;P You will see how it makes sense:

"Adralla of Vyrantium dedicated her life to the study of blood magic—the academic study, rather than the practice. A deeply pious mage, she was renowned in her day for having found a counter to every form of mind control, a defense against dream walkers, and even counter-spells to demonic summons.
Her efforts went unappreciated in her native Tevinter, however. After three different magisters attempted to have her killed, she fled the country, choosing to take refuge in the land of Blessed Andrate's birth. She spent the remainder of her days with the Circle in Ferelden.
The Litany of Adralla disrupts the casting of mind control spells. Use the Litany whenever a creature tries to dominate another with magic, and it will interrupt the casting. Once the spell is in effect and a character is under a blood mage's power, it is too late."--From Codex Entry: The Litany of Adralla

Edit on Avernus: He actually is a blood mage, but he uses tainted Warden blood. You ever looked at his robe's stats btw.? But I won't go into detail on that, leading us even more astray I guess.

Modifié par antigravitycat, 09 février 2011 - 02:28 .

[LobselVith8]

antigravitycat wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

[a lot about Morrigan]

When they are both in love she invites the Warden. But doesn't that completely contradict to what she claims all the time, that "love is important"? Seems like a bit like split personality. In the end, it depends very much on how you play the Warden. And by this it cannot serve as an argument for your standpoint.

It contradicts your claim that she only does it for herself if she's willing to do it in the name of friendship or love.

antigravitycat wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Actually, your entire paragraph made absolutely no sense, yet again. An abomination is a mage possessed by a demon. They have access to the powers of a mage, unlike standard possessions of trees or corpses or people who aren't or weren't mages. That's why an Arcane Horror is more powerful than the other re-animated corpses. Simply because Uldred is an abomination who can use blood magic doesn't mean demonology and blood ritual are related. He became possessed because of demonology - he summons one too many demons and he could not control them. When he was an abomination, he had access to all his magical power when he was a mage. You keep referencing the Litany of Adralla as if it means something to support your theory - it doesn't. The Litany was written by a possible blood mage from Tevinter to prevent mind control. The Litany focuses on preventing the abomination from using mind control on the weakened mages.

Basically, demonology is about summing demons - like Averus does in the Warden's Keep. It isn't tied to blood magic, which concerns using blood to power spells. No evidence that the two schools of magic are related to one another.

So that makes no sense to you, fine. You should read the codex entry ingame and see that you are wrong. And btw. Blood Magic is about mind control, I copied the codex from the wiki, am I not nice? ;P You will see how it makes sense:

<a codex entry that has nothing to do with demonology>

First, Gaider already stated that abominations only result from mages - I provided the link to this in the Abomination Talk page when I recommended it to be amended to reflect this. Second, we were never discussing whether mind control is tied to blood magic - we were discussing demonology, and I pointed out there's no evidence it's tied to blood magic.

[nos_astra]

The codex entry seems to imply that demonic summons are mind-control spells. And if mind-control is blood magic, so are they.

[antigravitycat]

LobselVith8, you really don't get the point. Either it is you or it is me, either way, I guess we are devided in our opinions on that too.

One last chance: blood magic always referred to be able to control other creature's minds -> mind control -> litany interrupts mind control / blood magic spells -> can be used to interrupt uldred using spells that turn mages into abominations - mages possessed by demons => leads to the obvious, if you fail to see it, you don't want to. Or whatever reason it might have. Either way, nevermind, have your way.

[Bahlgan]

Sarah1281 wrote...

And the fact that blood mages that the Warden goes through a great deal of effort to kill and even more effort to save Irving and thus the Circle caused problems that makes it fine for her to turn on her saviors the minute she sees Greagoir and tattles about the Warden's own blood magic? What does she honestly THINK will happen if she does that? It doesn't matter if the Circle is saved or destroyed if Wynne gets Ferelden's only hope arrested and killed.

It is possible someone made a Warden who felt a sense of obligation from recruiting only, and that is why the Warden on their story might have gone through in the first place, not for the humpty dumpty feeling of good will as you seem to assume everyone does. There are some pragmatic people out there who might want the templars instead, like my evil character, who thinks guys in metal plate are better pawns than clothies with magic. Keep in mind of the disclaimer however; that's not what I think, I always save the mages with my main character.

Wynne might have picked up the pragmatism in the said Warden and seen that he/she is going through the Circle Tower NOT for the sake of Mages,but for the Rite of Annulment; and something tells me she just picked up on it from the Warden's conversation with Cullen promising him to destroy all mages and Uldred up there.

....Now, my previous statement does not answer the question as to "what about a good Warden". So I will just simply state that perhaps a good Warden has the field of right to question Wynne's sudden change in attitude towards him/her, seeing as to that a good Warden did what he/she had to do also because it was the right thing to do. Then again, I suppose the devs intended for Wynne to always think of a blood mage as pragmatic.

In general, I think we should all look at the logic of the situation from Wynne's perspective Now what you would think if aliens had invaded your planet and some shady individual, who seemed to know them particularly well, had assissted you in driving back the mothership and the rest of the crew (haha I sense Independence Day), only to turn out HE was ONE of THEM?? Ooo... After driving away a hostile invasion only to find that the one who helped you is another specimen, how many people would you guys think he might/might not be a spy from the alien world and the "invasion" might really have been staged from the start, with a much larger invasion on its way; a real invasion?

Attribute shared in common: Wynne might have thought the blood mage Warden was actually a spy or a general maleficar who had the basic intention of more harm. After clearing out a FULL tower of blood mages, I am sure the last thing we need, based on instinct, is yet ANOTHER blood mage... The one that got away.

I myself do not mind a blood mage. Any of you played the mod Alley of Murders? Very interesting tale of how a blood mage actually does focus all his intent on strictly the Darkspawn. Applause to AmstradHero! 

Edit: You guys may also refer to Antigravitycat's last remark on blood magic, which involves mind control, to support my theory as to Wynne's fears against blood magic. I would hate to suspect the Warden using mind control at the tower; not that I believe he/she would save from the public's perspective.

First, Gaider already stated that abominations only result from mages - I provided the link to this in the Abomination Talk page when I recommended it to be amended to reflect this. Second, we were never discussing whether mind control is tied to blood magic - we were discussing demonology, and I pointed out there's no evidence it's tied to blood magic.

If stated in Wynne's fears, does it truly matter whether or not demonology and mind control are mentioned. Both stem from blood magic. Hell blood magic was even originally taught by demons to the first people of Thedas. It caused the Blights, allegedly.

Modifié par Bahlgan, 09 février 2011 - 03:56 .

[Addai]

USArmyParatrooper wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

That comment makes absolutely no sense. Morrigan advocates options that enpower the Grey Warden, not herself. How exactly does sparing the Anvil serve her? How does the blood ritual of Caldrius serve her? She doesn't advise the Warden to choose paths that serve only herself - the only two options that even concern Morrigan are her asking the Warden to kill her mother before she takes over her body, and wanting to spare an Old God from extinction. Neither of those options enpower her. The latter is about preserving the last of three remaining Old Gods from certain annihilation.

.

You left out the part where you lose approval from Morrigan because you refuse to allow a Blood Mage to slaughter Elvin slaves in order to augment your own life force. You say good friend, I say horrible person. She loses approval everytime you do something nice for someone.

Have to agree with LobselVith8.  Morrigan is not advocating evil for the lulz.  She knows better than others- through Flemeth and by observing the battles at Ostagar- the horrible power of the darkspawn and knows better than your PC does that the Wardens are the only ones who can defeat the Blight.  While suggesting you take Caladrius' offer is horrible (especially for a city elf!), it's with that knowledge in mind.  If the Wardens don't survive, no one survives.