361 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

klarabella wrote...

The codex entry seems to imply that demonic summons are mind-control spells. And if mind-control is blood magic, so are they.

The codex implied no such thing. The codex he provided mentioned that Adralla dealt with a variety of spells during her time in Tevinter, including the summoning of demons. The codex he provided didn't state that the school of demonology is tied to blood magic in any fashion.

antigravitycat wrote...

LobselVith8, you really don't get the point. Either it is you or it is me, either way, I guess we are devided in our opinions on that too.

I do get the point. You provided a codex that stated Adralla handled a variety of spells in Tevinter (and I have little doubt that a Chantry written codex would make her seem very pious indeed), including spells that dealt with demons. It didn't stipulate that her study of counter-acting demons was blood magic.

antigravitycat wrote...

One last chance: blood magic always referred to be able to control other creature's minds -> mind control -> litany interrupts mind control / blood magic spells -> can be used to interrupt uldred using spells that turn mages into abominations - mages possessed by demons => leads to the obvious, if you fail to see it, you don't want to. Or whatever reason it might have. Either way, nevermind, have your way.

If I fail to see that you're making absolutely no sense, you mean? You bring up the Litany of Adralla, but that's focused on mind control - blood magic. You attempt to make the case that blood magic is tied to demonology; however, demons have no blood. You can't mind control a demon like you can a person, it's the reason why golems can't be commanded - i.e. lack of blood. Demons are summoned in comparison. It's why Averus discusses his mistake in calculations (in reference to his use of demonology) rather than making any comment about mind control being the issue.

[LobselVith8]

Bahlgan wrote...

It is possible someone made a Warden who felt a sense of obligation from recruiting only, and that is why the Warden on their story might have gone through in the first place, not for the humpty dumpty feeling of good will as you seem to assume everyone does. There are some pragmatic people out there who might want the templars instead, like my evil character, who thinks guys in metal plate are better pawns than clothies with magic. Keep in mind of the disclaimer however; that's not what I think, I always save the mages with my main character.

Templars do participate in the battle even if mages are spared; you see one after the Archdemon has been killed in the background of Bann Tegan seeing the explosion of light at Fort Frakon.

Bahlgan wrote...

Wynne might have picked up the pragmatism in the said Warden and seen that he/she is going through the Circle Tower NOT for the sake of Mages,but for the Rite of Annulment; and something tells me she just picked up on it from the Warden's conversation with Cullen promising him to destroy all mages and Uldred up there.

There is the issue that she makes no argument to save them if KC Greagoir decides to anul the Circle; she never tries to stop Greagoir to save the mages. That being said, I respect Wynne's decision to help Shale regain her mortality. I respect her desire to see the Circle become more than an "oppressive place." I understand her fear that mages wanting to be free from the Chantry will mean that the Chantry will murder the mages rather than see them free.

Bahlgan wrote...

In general, I think we should all look at the logic of the situation from Wynne's perspective Now what you would think if aliens had invaded your planet and some shady individual, who seemed to know them particularly well, had assissted you in driving back the mothership and the rest of the crew (haha I sense Independence Day), only to turn out HE was ONE of THEM?? Ooo... After driving away a hostile invasion only to find that the one who helped you is another specimen, how many people would you guys think he might/might not be a spy from the alien world and the "invasion" might really have been staged from the start, with a much larger invasion on its way; a real invasion?

Considering that Wynne can be argued to be an abomination by some (certainly the Chantry and the templars would regardless of what the devs say is technically true), I find it irritating that she would bring this up after the Warden helps save the Circle in the discussion with Greagoir. She certainly doesn't come forward to reveal she was saved by a spirit, after all.

Bahlgan wrote...

Attribute shared in common: Wynne might have thought the blood mage Warden was actually a spy or a general maleficar who had the basic intention of more harm. After clearing out a FULL tower of blood mages, I am sure the last thing we need, based on instinct, is yet ANOTHER blood mage... The one that got away.

Or an abomination, which Wynne considers herself to be unless convinced to look at it from another angle - mainly, her remaining humanity.

Bahlgan wrote...

Edit: You guys may also refer to Antigravitycat's last remark on blood magic, which involves mind control, to support my theory as to Wynne's fears against blood magic. I would hate to suspect the Warden using mind control at the tower; not that I believe he/she would save from the public's perspective.

Blood magic isn't prohibited for Wardens. Given Wynne's constant claims and sermons about the Wardens and putting forth her opinion as fact, she should realize this.

Bahlgan wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

First, Gaider already stated that abominations only result from mages - I provided the link to this in the Abomination Talk page when I recommended it to be amended to reflect this. Second, we were never discussing whether mind control is tied to blood magic - we were discussing demonology, and I pointed out there's no evidence it's tied to blood magic.

If stated in Wynne's fears, does it truly matter whether or not demonology and mind control are mentioned. Both stem from blood magic. Hell blood magic was even originally taught by demons to the first people of Thedas. It caused the Blights, allegedly.

Wrong. We have no evidence demonology steams from blood magic at all. And theories aren't facts; the flying spaghetti monster could have given knowledge of blood magic to mages, but speculation isn't proof.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 09 février 2011 - 04:53 .

[Sarah1281]

It is possible someone made a Warden who felt a sense of obligation from recruiting only, and that is why the Warden on their story might have gone through in the first place, not for the humpty dumpty feeling of good will as you seem to assume everyone does. There are some pragmatic people out there who might want the templars instead, like my evil character, who thinks guys in metal plate are better pawns than clothies with magic. Keep in mind of the disclaimer however; that's not what I think, I always save the mages with my main character.

If the Warden does side with the templars then I can more easily forgive Wynne for ratting you out. She has nothing to be thankful to you for, after all. It's only a Warden who is the only reason the mages are still alive (as you tell Wynne that Greagoir is waiting for backup before killing/imprisoning them all) that Wynne owes far more to than to immediately rat them out to templars.

Attribute shared in common: Wynne might have thought the blood mage Warden was actually a spy or a general maleficar who had the basic intention of more harm. After clearing out a FULL tower of blood mages, I am sure the last thing we need, based on instinct, is yet ANOTHER blood mage... The one that got away.

Some spy if they can't even keep their blood magic hidden and the idea of a Warden blood magic spy doesn't really make any sense. The Warden was already out of the Tower and out of the power of the templars. Wynne might suspect that that thing with Jowan was a set-up but in what possible way could Uldred's rebellion benefit the Warden even if they are a blood mage? It just makes recruiting troops more of a pain (unless I guess the Warden hated the Circle and wanted to see it destroyed or thought templars would be more useful in which case they wouldn't have gone the saving it route) and being force to use blood magic in the same building as a sizeable force of templars isn't going to be anybody's first choice. If Wynne saw the Warden use blood magic to stop the other blood mages and demons and save everything Wynne holds dear and thought that somehow this was a bad thing and proved that the Warden couldn't be trusted then that makes her seem delusional.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 09 février 2011 - 04:44 .

[Kappa Neko]

Woah, the discussion has heated up quite a bit since I last visited this thread! *throws a couple of valium into the crowd*



I agree with antigravitycat that the reason Morrigan does not try to kill the Warden is the DR. It makes no sense for her to sabotage her own goals. So you can't compare the number of murder attempts by Wynne or any other companion to Morrigan. I disagree, however, about Morrigan being heartless. What I love about her character is that you never find out if she played you the whole time or not. It's strongly suggested, though, that she got friendly with you just so she could use you, but that she developed affection too. The DR is a win-win situation for both her and the Warden, in her eyes.



About blood magic: I have to admit that I've never read a single codex page....so I'll leave that kind of talk to you guys. I'll just say that I don't consider blood magic evil. It's the only specialization I haven't obtained yet because I consider the method of obtaining it very wrong. BUT, as has been pointed out, you can learn blood magic without selling a kid's soul to a demon, just not in the Warden's case.

Anything can be used to cause harm! Blood magic is a tool. The individual determines if it's used for "good" or "evil" by their actions. What's good and what's bad is always a matter of interpretation, of course. And therefore there is no universal good or evil. But that's beside the point. A gun itself is not a bad thing, even though it was designed to be a lethal weapon. There is great potential for "evil" use, yes. Everything that makes us more powerful is dangerous. So blood magic might be more dangerous than other kinds of magic. But it's the personality of the mage that's crucial.

If you ask me, get rid of everything that greatly empowers a single person! Most people exploit power for selfish goals. But since we're talking about a fantasy game and the Blight and not reality: go for it! Anything that helps stop the Blight without killing everybody in the process is gooood.



Back to Wynne:

In response to what has been said a few pages earlier: not provoking certain reactions from companions does not mean that those aren't part of their personality. So it IS actually very important what Wynne does when you make her mad. This is her, too.

So now I'm actually wondering what I'll think of her when I play differently. Because so far I've gotten along with her fine. I only accidentally got her to attack me on my second (Morrigan romance) playthrough when you first meet her because I wanted to support Morrigan for once. I was quite shocked when Wynne tried to kill me. But at least there it does make sense. She's protecting her home and the organization she believes in.

I watched a video clip that shows how she rats you out if you obtain blood magic. Yes, that's something I DO hold against her. Again I can understand her. Which doesn't excuse it, though. It seems, though, that you can get her to not attack you, right?

From what I've read about Wynne's murder attemps, my approval of her is still high. It's not like I hadn't been aware of her less generous side. But I'll reserve a final judgement until I've played the game once more with a very disapproving Wynne.

[Xilizhra]

BUT, as has been pointed out, you can learn blood magic without selling a kid's soul to a demon, just not in the Warden's case.

You can, actually, with enough Coercion.

[Sarah1281]

I agree with antigravitycat that the reason Morrigan does not try to kill the Warden is the DR. It makes no sense for her to sabotage her own goals.

Presumably Wynne's goals involve ending the Blight. And notably Morrigan doesn't even try to kill you if you turn down the DR, she just leaves.

I was quite shocked when Wynne tried to kill me. But at least there it does make sense. She's protecting her home and the organization she believes in.

I can forgive her trying to kill you when you first walk in and announce your intention to do the templar's work for them a lot easier than I can forgive her for attacking you after Cullen. The first time she tried to kill me I was just humoring Cullen ('yeah, of course I'll take care of it. Don't worry, crazy person...') and I didn't have an option to 'change my mind.' Wynne trying to kill you and, even if she succeeds, being in no position to deal with Uldred roughly too minutes before needing to deal with Uldred is just stupid. She doesn't want Irving and the others to die? Well trying to take on Uldred alone won't accomplish that.

I watched a video clip that shows how she rats you out if you obtain blood magic. Yes, that's something I DO hold against her. Again I can understand her. Which doesn't excuse it, though. It seems, though, that you can get her to not attack you, right?

Irving and Greagoir are both falling all over themselves to find a way not to have to act on what she said. If you claim that it's "Grey Warden magic" and have decent persuade then they cover for you and convince Wynne to back down. Even if she makes it difficult by insisting that there's only one mage GW at a time (as if) and therefore that doesn't make sense. Good thing there are handy GW books on the subject.

Notably, Greagoir is more reasonable than Wynne here as if you admit to being a blood mage he still tries to arrest you (you and Wynne kind of force his hand) but he does take the unprecedented step of promising to try to make the Grand Cleric understand.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 09 février 2011 - 10:01 .

[Kappa Neko]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I agree with antigravitycat that the reason Morrigan does not try to kill the Warden is the DR. It makes no sense for her to sabotage her own goals.

Presumably Wynne's goals involve ending the Blight. And notably Morrigan doesn't even try to kill you if you turn down the DR, she just leaves.

Yes, because by then Morrigan actually does like you. Plus despite of her selfish goals, she actually wants to end the Blight. Why wouldn't she? It's a threat to her as well.
Wynne wants to end the Blight, of course. But to her other things are of great importance, too. Such as preserving the Circle and changing it while doing so. And that conflict gets her priorities wrong more than once. I'm not trying to ignore this. I just don't hold it against her enough to dislike her for it.

[Sarah1281]

Yes, because by then Morrigan actually does like you.

Not necessarily. Morrigan can absolutely hate you or she could show up after you dismissed her in Lothering and she still won't try to kill you. Poison those ashes and watch Wynne go from your best friend in the world to 'Die!'

[LobselVith8]

USArmyParatrooper wrote...

I've never seen a Wynne appreciation thread, though I'm sure at some point someone must have made one. I have; however, seen lots and lots of snipes at Wynne for her "preachy" nature and her lectures.

Until recently I largely ignored her, but I became curious so I started talking to her. What a nice, sweet old woman! I only wish my 4 foot 11 inch, angry Sicilian grandmother was more like her.

OK, so she's not a smoking hot little tight-body like Morrigan or Leliana. But give that nice old lady some love! 

Well, she does want to see things improve for the Circle. She does ask Aneirin to go back to the Circle because she thinks it needs to change, and she recommends the Grey Warden from the Circle of Ferelden to use his or her position to get a leadership position and bring some positive changes for the mages. I thought the Magi boon would bring that because she never denies the Circle is oppressive and thinks change needs to happen over a gradual period of time, but she never comments on it like Irving does.

Off-topic, but does anyone else find it odd that the Magi boon is turned down by the Chantry when there's little indication that it's going to be the case during the actual royal ceremony in DA:O? At the royal ceremony, there's no indication that the Magi boon will be turned down since the ruler of Ferelden decrees that the mages of Ferelden have earned the right to govern themselves:

Anora: "Is there any boon you might request of Ferelden's queen?"

Warden: "I ask that the Circle of Magi be given its independence."

Anora: "I doubt the Chantry will agree, but you have an excellent point. Let it be known that Ferelden's mages have earned the right to watch over themselves. The tower shall be restored and returned to the Circle."

She makes a proclamation at the end. Although the comment about the Chantry could imply otherwise, it leads to a conversation with First Enchanter Irving, who treats it as a given that the Magi boon has happened.  "I must thank you, however, for freeing the Circle from our shackles. That was most unexpected, indeed! You could have asked for anything." I answered, "I did what I thought was right," and he further commented: "Most would have asked for wealth, or power. Thank you. This is a gift we will not abuse."

Honestly, it reads like a recton to know that the boon was turned down (after reading Gaider's message about it) when the First Enchanter never addresses this as a possibility. In fact, the independent Circle of Orzammar is never even formed when this boon is asked for. If the Chantry said no as far as DA:O was concerned, why is there no independent Circle in Orzammar to reflect that nothing has changed?

Note: Only Anora can give the boon on the vanilla game. It's presently bugged and the flag isn't set if it's Alistair who asks what boon the Warden wants (which you can see because Irving will not acknowledge it as a result).

[Kappa Neko]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Yes, because by then Morrigan actually does like you.

Not necessarily. Morrigan can absolutely hate you or she could show up after you dismissed her in Lothering and she still won't try to kill you. Poison those ashes and watch Wynne go from your best friend in the world to 'Die!'

True. Doesn't discount the idea that ending the Blight is probably in her interest as well, though. Just proves that she doesn't let negative emotions get the better of her (perhaps). Dunno. To me Morrigan's personality does not make perfect sense. Either it's not meant to or her character was not written quite right.

[LobselVith8]

Kappa Neko wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Yes, because by then Morrigan actually does like you.

Not necessarily. Morrigan can absolutely hate you or she could show up after you dismissed her in Lothering and she still won't try to kill you. Poison those ashes and watch Wynne go from your best friend in the world to 'Die!'

True. Doesn't discount the idea that ending the Blight is probably in her interest as well, though. Just proves that she doesn't let negative emotions get the better of her (perhaps). Dunno. To me Morrigan's personality does not make perfect sense. Either it's not meant to or her character was not written quite right.

Not only ending the Blight, but preserving the soul of an Old God. We really know nothing about them, and it's possible Morrigan could have a great deal more information about them from her mother than we're ever privy to. Considering that the Warden's means of victory will destroy the other two Old Gods when the next two Blights transpire, the dark ritual is the only means to save this soul from annihilation.

[nos_astra]

Kappa Neko wrote...
True. Doesn't discount the idea that ending the Blight is probably in her interest as well, though. Just proves that she doesn't let negative emotions get the better of her (perhaps). Dunno. To me Morrigan's personality does not make perfect sense. Either it's not meant to or her character was not written quite right.

Morrigan knows that a Grey Warden is needed to end the Blight. And this is happening at a point where it's clear that reinforcements will be too late.

The desecration of the ashes occurs earlier, of course. True, Wynne's (and Leliana's) reaction is way too extreme for a friend, but I really don't hold this against her character. While I'm perfectly fine with her being a preachy, sanctimonious hypocrite, I don't like it when characters are forced to carry the idiot ball. Considering how much DAO does suffer from many logical flaws and inconsistencies, I really don't see this as a defining part of her character.

Just have a look at what happens: Alistair will fight against Wynne! Is this supposed to tell me something? No, it's just game mechanics. Wynne is removed from the group and switches to hostile.

[nos_astra]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Not only ending the Blight, but preserving the soul of an Old God. We really know nothing about them, and it's possible Morrigan could have a great deal more information about them from her mother than we're ever privy to. Considering that the Warden's means of victory will destroy the other two Old Gods when the next two Blights transpire, the dark ritual is the only means to save this soul from annihilation.

She could have, but she doesn't share this. Why?

Flemeth and Morrigan are both characterized in a certain way. They care about power. Would they go to such lengths for altruistic reasons? No, there is something in it for them. It could be power, it could be survival.

[Addai]

klarabella wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Not only ending the Blight, but preserving the soul of an Old God. We really know nothing about them, and it's possible Morrigan could have a great deal more information about them from her mother than we're ever privy to. Considering that the Warden's means of victory will destroy the other two Old Gods when the next two Blights transpire, the dark ritual is the only means to save this soul from annihilation.

She could have, but she doesn't share this. Why?

Flemeth and Morrigan are both characterized in a certain way. They care about power. Would they go to such lengths for altruistic reasons? No, there is something in it for them. It could be power, it could be survival.

Because they personally get something out of it doesn't make it an evil or even a selfish act.  Consider, an altruistic act that actually leads to more suffering or death is not really a "good" action.  Take the Redcliffe decision.  Metagame-wise we know that nothing bad happens if you leave and go to the Circle.  However, leaving an innocent village under the sway of the demon because you can't bring yourself to kill either Connor or Isolde is not really an altruistic act.  Likewise Flemeth intervening to save the Wardens means she gets something she wants, but coincidentally it also saves the world.

[LobselVith8]

klarabella wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Not only ending the Blight, but preserving the soul of an Old God. We really know nothing about them, and it's possible Morrigan could have a great deal more information about them from her mother than we're ever privy to. Considering that the Warden's means of victory will destroy the other two Old Gods when the next two Blights transpire, the dark ritual is the only means to save this soul from annihilation.

She could have, but she doesn't share this. Why?

If the Warden was in a romantic relationship with her, she eventually does once they both go through the Eluvian together. TPTB simply didn't bother to inform us, despite the promises that everything would be revealed in Witch Hunt. (Then again, they never bothered to address the Chantry saying no to the Magi boon, or correcting the bugs with the elven Bann epilogue, so maybe I expect too much from them.)

klarabella wrote...

Flemeth and Morrigan are both characterized in a certain way. They care about power. Would they go to such lengths for altruistic reasons? No, there is something in it for them. It could be power, it could be survival.

Flemeth is too much of an unknown to honestly say what her goals are. I wouldn't presume to second-guess what she's planning. As for Morrigan, it's difficult to say what her goal with the OGB is, but she clearly thinks he has a destiny.

[nos_astra]

Addai67 wrote...
Because they personally get something out of it doesn't make it an evil or even a selfish act.

It depends on what they get out of it and at what cost it comes.

Maybe their survival is tied to the survival of Thedas. Good for everyone.
Maybe they were looking for a power that ends up causing more damage than it does good. Bad for everyone.

Whatever it is, it doesn't make Morrigan a good person. In the game Morrigan is portrayed as selfish, callous and often immature, not evil, but certainly lacking social skills and empathy.

[Aeowyn]

klarabella wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
Because they personally get something out of it doesn't make it an evil or even a selfish act.

It depends on what they get out of it and at what cost it comes.

Maybe their survival is tied to the survival of Thedas. Good for everyone.
Maybe they were looking for a power that ends up causing more damage than it does good. Bad for everyone.

Whatever it is, it doesn't make Morrigan a good person. In the game Morrigan is portrayed as selfish, callous and often immature, not evil, but certainly lacking social skills and empathy.

Lol, are you really surprised about that? She was raised in the wilds with her mother as the only other "human" she met. Well, unless you count Flemeth's "visitors".

[IanPolaris]

Given the choice between Morrigan and Wynne, I'd much rather trust Morrigan even if I didn't like her (and plenty of my wardens did not). Why? Simple. Morrigan always works for an eye to power and self-interest (and yes your self-interest). She is a hard and cold person (or at least tries to protray herself as such), but ultimately that makes her predictable and loyal. As long as the fate of Fereldan lies in your hands, Morrigan will stick by you...for her own selfish reasons. Her butter may be rancid, but you can *count* on it being buttered on your side of the bread.



Not so with Wynne. Wynne is an idealogue, and I don't trust idealogues because they are prone to do terrible and nutty things because of what they think reality *ought* to be rather than what it is. I submit the Warden-Bloodmage scene as prime evidence of this (but there is a lot more), and that makes Wynne prone to attack the Warden at the drop of a hat no matter what the consequences are. That makes Wynne (IMHO) untrustworthy.



-Polaris

[Sarah1281]

Off-topic, but does anyone else find it odd that the Magi boon is turned down by the Chantry when there's little indication that it's going to be the case during the actual royal ceremony in DA:O? At the royal ceremony, there's no indication that the Magi boon will be turned down since the ruler of Ferelden decrees that the mages of Ferelden have earned the right to govern themselves:



Anora: "Is there any boon you might request of Ferelden's queen?"



Warden: "I ask that the Circle of Magi be given its independence."



Anora: "I doubt the Chantry will agree, but you have an excellent point. Let it be known that Ferelden's mages have earned the right to watch over themselves. The tower shall be restored and returned to the Circle."



She makes a proclamation at the end. Although the comment about the Chantry could imply otherwise, it leads to a conversation with First Enchanter Irving, who treats it as a given that the Magi boon has happened. "I must thank you, however, for freeing the Circle from our shackles. That was most unexpected, indeed! You could have asked for anything." I answered, "I did what I thought was right," and he further commented: "Most would have asked for wealth, or power. Thank you. This is a gift we will not abuse."

I think Anora's comment about the Chantry is a good indication. I don't really understand why they gave you the option to ask for that boon if they weren't going to implement it. Were they always planning for a sequel? If so, they probably realized that that was going to be something mages would probably want and so just because it couldn't happen didn't mean that the mage wouldn't ask for it.



Irving might not realize the power balance between the crown and the Chantry since he's lived his entire life in the Chantry. If the king/queen says the mages are free, he won't necessarily know that the Chantry's objections could prevent this. The Chantry can't technically stop the monarchs from doing whatever they want but you know they'd just threaten (and perhaps carry through with) an exalted march.

Just have a look at what happens: Alistair will fight against Wynne! Is this supposed to tell me something? No, it's just game mechanics. Wynne is removed from the group and switches to hostile.

I don't find that particularly odd. Wynne is trying to kill the Warden. Maybe Alistair should try to talk her down but what is he supposed to do in this situation? He can't let the Warden die or he'll be the only Warden in Ferelden and it's already looking pretty bleak. Would it be better for him to stand around and wait to see which of you kils the other?

[USArmyParatrooper]

OK, let's just settle this right now.

Wynne = GILF 

/Thread

[Aeowyn]

Interestingly enough you don't lose approval with Alistair if Wynne attacks first in the Tower, as opposed to if you attack first.

[Carmen_Willow]

I've been lurking in this thread all day and can finally add my two cents worth. I was one who tried to start an "I like Wynne" thread. Sadly, the Wynne-Haters were so vitriolic and insistent, it was simpler to just let it go....but I would like to restate my main reason for liking Wynne.



I played as a HNF, a new player, a new Warden. Alistair was grieving his loss, Leliana was running from her past, Sten was doing whatever he does with regard to his murder spree (didn't have Shale that first time through), etc. Wynne was the only NPC who took time to find out how I was doing emotionally, what I was feeling. It was she who guided me through the "my life is never going to be the same, is it...." moment. It was she who took the time out from her own traumatic losses to ask about my own, to attempt; albeit poorly, to advise me. I will always be grateful that she cared enough to ask. With every other NPC, I had to be the strong one, I had to figure out their issue, I had to be wise. With Wynne, at least, I could, for a time be the cheeky just out of my teens, second born noble child that I was.



Secondly, with regard to Wynne's supposed "cougaring" of Alistair in RTO......I didn't see it that way. Al started it with his snarky comments about her age. Women of a certain age may have grey hair, and wrinkled skin, but in their hearts and souls they are still the 18 year old hottie they always were. I think Wynne said those things to Al to jerk him around a little and to remind him that she was still a woman. I think she's entitled....after all, look how she's kept her figure all these years. I totally think Alistair got what he deserved in that encounter, and he will think twice the next time he infers that some woman is "old."



Anyway, I like Wynne. Always have, always will.

[USArmyParatrooper]

Carmen_Willow wrote...

I've been lurking in this thread all day and can finally add my two cents worth. I was one who tried to start an "I like Wynne" thread. Sadly, the Wynne-Haters were so vitriolic and insistent, it was simpler to just let it go....but I would like to restate my main reason for liking Wynne.

I played as a HNF, a new player, a new Warden. Alistair was grieving his loss, Leliana was running from her past, Sten was doing whatever he does with regard to his murder spree (didn't have Shale that first time through), etc. Wynne was the only NPC who took time to find out how I was doing emotionally, what I was feeling. It was she who guided me through the "my life is never going to be the same, is it...." moment. It was she who took the time out from her own traumatic losses to ask about my own, to attempt; albeit poorly, to advise me. I will always be grateful that she cared enough to ask. With every other NPC, I had to be the strong one, I had to figure out their issue, I had to be wise. With Wynne, at least, I could, for a time be the cheeky just out of my teens, second born noble child that I was.

Secondly, with regard to Wynne's supposed "cougaring" of Alistair in RTO......I didn't see it that way. Al started it with his snarky comments about her age. Women of a certain age may have grey hair, and wrinkled skin, but in their hearts and souls they are still the 18 year old hottie they always were. I think Wynne said those things to Al to jerk him around a little and to remind him that she was still a woman. I think she's entitled....after all, look how she's kept her figure all these years. I totally think Alistair got what he deserved in that encounter, and he will think twice the next time he infers that some woman is "old."

Anyway, I like Wynne. Always have, always will.

Well said!  Not quite as profound as my GILF comment, but very good post indeed.

Modifié par USArmyParatrooper, 09 février 2011 - 11:37 .

[IanPolaris]

The Water God wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

The Water God wrote...

Blood magic was originally used by the Trevinter Imperium to rule over Thedas. According to the Chantry it also led to the blackening of the Golden city and the creation of Darkspawn. '

Well...technically the Chantry claims that the Maker was pissed that Tevinter mages dared to enter the Golden City (admittedly through blood magic) and their mere mortal presence somehow instantly turned it into the Black City forever because the Maker either can't turn it back in which case he's some god or doesn't want to turn it back. As the Maker was angry at this one specific group of mages, he turned them into darkspawn. Pretty horrible but still punishing the guilt party. What does he do then? Unleashes them on an unsuspecting and innocent world as mankinds punishment for centuries if not millennia. When even the Maker's own worshippers think the Maker is such a horrible entity, he's probably kind of a horrible entity.

Oh, and that's just the Chantry's opinion on where darkspawn came from. Given that the Chantry was founded by followers of a woman whose main goal in life was to bring down the Tevinter Imperium and mages (and their blood magic) ruled the Imperium, it's not surprising that they chose to blame the single biggest threat to life on Thedas on the mages.

The Maker did not transform them into darkspawn. The Trevinter mages looked to usurp heaven, and thus found out a way into the golden city. Then because they entered the city while they were still alive they were corrupted and transformed into darkspawn and the golden city was destroyed. The chantry teaches that its man that brought the darkspawn into the world, not the maker.

So according to the Chnatry the blights are due to the fact that the Maker was too cheap to hire Golden City Guards that were worth a damn, and instead of destroyiung the Magisters, he turns his back on all of humanity and says "deal with it" regarding the blight.

Wonderful.  I think Morrigan has it right. Why on earth would people worship a God that's turned it back on them not once but twice.

-Polaris