361 réponses à ce sujet

[nos_astra]

ejoslin wrote...
But her concerns are not based upon the warden's actions.

No, they can't, because the default Warden is a blank slate, devoid of personality, and the game doesn't acknowledge your playing style (often not even your origin).

Honestly, age has less to do with it than the type of person you
are.  And before anyone says that I'm young and that's why I'm saying
that, I am not -- I'm 42.  Age does not equal responsibility nor does
being a young adult preclude it.

True, age can be deceiving. But most of the time being older means people will expect more from you - more maturity, more foresight, more wisdom.

Modifié par klarabella, 10 février 2011 - 02:26 .

[ejoslin]

klarabella wrote...

ejoslin wrote...
But her concerns are not based upon the warden's actions.

No, they can't, because the default Warden is a blank slate, devoid of personality, and the game doesn't acknowledge your playing style (often not even your origin).

Honestly, age has less to do with it than the type of person you
are.  And before anyone says that I'm young and that's why I'm saying
that, I am not -- I'm 42.  Age does not equal responsibility nor does
being a young adult preclude it.

True, age can be deceiving. But most of the time being older means people will expect more from you - more maturity, more foresight, more wisdom.

They do?  I've known plenty of 40+ people who look older, die younger, because they're out partying every night.  I've also known plenty of early-twenties people who had responsible jobs, owned houses, some who run their own business.

I don't judge people by their age.  That's a sure way to be disappointed.

[PanosSmirnakos]

ejoslin wrote...

PanosSmirnakos wrote...

I liked Wynne, she is a deep character with an interesting back-story. She reminded me of a female version of Gandalf. But one of the main reasons I liked her more was her voice actress. Her voice fits perfectly with her in-game character model and her personality. IMO she and Sten have valid questions about how ready and mature the main warden is to handle the situation of a blight and lead / unite the people of Ferelden.

What are Wynne's concerns based on?  In what way has the warden shown themselves to be anything but ready and willing and working towards ending the blight?  Exactly what have they done to show themselves NOT mature and unable to unite the people?

I mean, I honestly don't get this.  There is nothing in game that shows the warden wavering or not living up to their duties at all.

I was trying to be realistic. In the game you are a young "soldier" without tons of experiences in war and suddenly you become a "general" of an important order which has the heavy task to save and unite a kingdom. I mean if Duncan and the rest of the experienced Fereldan Wardens didn't die in Ostagar how our warden was going to be the leader of the grey wardens so soon? But, because it's a video game, of course you are the special one who is going to kick @ss and take names. People don't know you, so that's why some of them have doubts about your skills and motives.

[LobselVith8]

[quote]Bahlgan wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Templars do participate in the battle even if mages are spared; you see one after the Archdemon has been killed in the background of Bann Tegan seeing the explosion of light at Fort Frakon.[/quote]

But you cannot control them. [/quote]

Fair enough, but I already have golems and dwarves to handle melee combat if the situation ever arose (and it honestly doesn't because with the DLC and side-quests I'm already Lvl 24 during the Battle of Denerim), so I don't really need the templars myself.

[quote]Bahlgan wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

There is the issue that she makes no argument to save them if KC Greagoir decides to anul the Circle; she never tries to stop Greagoir to save the mages. [/quote]

You're missing an important fact: Wynne was not present at the party when you met Greagoir. Doors are sealed after you exit the front room and venture into the first of hallways. How could Wynne try to stop Greagoir if the two aren't in the same room? [/quote]

After the battle with Uldred, I meant. She never says anything to convince him against annulling the Circle when Cullen suggests killing the mages to be on the safe side. She's willing to kill my Warden on two occassions in this journey to battle Uldred, but she never contests the Anulment when we finally meet up with Greagoir.

[quote]Bahlgan wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Considering that Wynne can be argued to be an abomination by some (certainly the Chantry and the templars would regardless of what the devs say is technically true), I find it irritating that she would bring this up after the Warden helps save the Circle in the discussion with Greagoir. She certainly doesn't come forward to reveal she was saved by a spirit, after all.[/quote]

Wynne never asked to be saved by the spirit. The spirit arrived to her ailing, whether she liked it or not (I imagine she appreciated it). You made a statement earlier saying she's a hypocrite that she hates abominations and yet she is one; choice makes a difference, and apparently it was never her's to make in the first place. She sacrificed her life for the children mages, and more than likely expected to stay dead rather than borrow spiritual life force.
[/quote]

She's willing to risk the lives of the children because Morrigan voiced her opinion, and the fact that she is bonded to a Spirit would make her an abomination in the eyes of KC Greagoir and the templars, if not the devs actual view of abominations being strictly with demons. That distinction would make little difference to the templars and the Chantry, who would kill her if they knew. You also misread what I wrote: She seems to ready to challenge the Warden's use of blood magic to save the Circle, but keeps her own nature a secret. Wardens have no prohibition on blood magic, and she's in no place to question this, especially after the Warden saves the Circle from Anulment.

[quote]Bahlgan wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Or an abomination, which Wynne considers herself to be unless convinced to look at it from another angle - mainly, her remaining humanity.[/quote]

Is she an abomination? I was under the impression that an abomination is the union between a mortal entity and a demon, not a spirit. Doesn't say anything about a spirit. And yes I do consider both to be different, for I am certain the game lore does as well. And no, she just became an "abomination", she still would retain her mentality, unlike Flemeth, who had been one for Maker knows how long... Besides, spirits do not seek dominion. [/quote]

She's not an abomination by definition of the devs (only demons with mages) but she would be considered one in the eyes of the templars and the Chantry. They would kill her for it - make no mistake about it.

[quote]Bahlgan wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Blood magic isn't prohibited for Wardens. Given Wynne's constant claims and sermons about the Wardens and putting forth her opinion as fact, she should realize this.[/quote]

I understand this. but with the situation at hand, perhaps the last thing needed to be used is yet more blood magic. Sort of like the last thing we need after receiving a ton of healing is more healing.. Just isn't all that necessary. [/quote]

I thought the purpose was to save lives, and save the mages from the templars. Either that's the goal, or it isn't. Blood magic or no blood magic, it has nothing to do with the purpose at hand. I find it irritating because she has no problem keeping her own nature a secret, but she'll call out the Warden for saving the Circle in front of the templars because she suspects blood magic was used? I find this to be a bit of a character flaw.

[quote]Bahlgan wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Wrong. We have no evidence demonology steams from blood magic at all. And theories aren't facts; the flying spaghetti monster could have given knowledge of blood magic to mages, but speculation isn't proof.[/quote]

Avernus? Pretty much every blood mage in the tower? How about the Mad Hermit? Uldred? And it's no theory, demons DID teach the life forms of Thedas to practice this ancient magic. If you look on the wiki, the saying that demons taught them this magic isn't placed under the first heading, where I see no third person opinionated tones in the reading. [/quote]

Is there a point to you referencing blood mages? And yes, it is a theory. No different than the heresay section in the Abomination codex that also doesn't have a fictional person listed as author, but still states it as an issue of heresay for the people of Thedas. Maybe it's likely that demons gave the knowledge of blood magic to humans, but then again, there's no proof to support this. It's like the claims about mages turning the Golden City into the Black City - no proof.

Also, the discussion was about demonology - the summoning of demons - not the inception of blood magic. And the unofficial wiki also states that abominations are pretty much anyone who is possessed, which isn't canon, as only mages who are possessed by demons are abominations. I've also had to correct personally the issue of the Magi boon not being granted on the Epilogue page because it stated that it happened, and David Gaider has said that the Chantry turned down the boon when it was requested by the ruler of Ferelden. Nobody has amended the elven Bann section to reflect the bugged epilogues that don't show up because it never shows if one ruler is the one granting the boon (as the Magi boon itself is bugged if Alistair grants it, but the flags set properly if Anora is the person who grants the boon).

[quote]Bahlgan wrote...

Perhaps she believes the Warden is either a greater threat to her and all she represents, or at least a more immediate threat, than even the Archdemon himself. Isn't exactly a smart thing to do, but then again people tend to do "not-smart" things when they are pushed into a corner. I am sure that everyone does this, Wynne is no different to deserve the gallows for what she did than say... Loghain? Alistair? Sten? Jesus, Sten..... Killing a family of farmers.. [/quote]

She thinks that the person who saved the Circle is a threat? Instead of dealing with this issue in private, Wynne felt it necessary to risk the life of the Warden to the templars, despite the fact that there's a Blight threatening the entire nation? Did she crack her skull when she fell down fighting that demon to save Petra?

[quote]Bahlgan wrote...

I am sure he/she was a formiddable spy for it to take Wynne until the cleansing of the tower before she realized it. She certainly didn't notice it first thing. As far as your Uldred comment, I am not sure where you are going with this, I did not mention siding with Uldred. I never did say Wynne was perfect, but again, the last thing I am sure anyone wants to see in an event full of blood mages is yet another blood mage. The only other defense I would have to add is that the scripting and dialogue options were poorly constructed... Should have been a persuasion option to allow Wynne to see that sometimes one must fight fire with fire I suppose. [/quote]

Endangering all of Ferelden at a time of Blight because she feels uneasy about blood magic is foolish. I don't know what sort of person is going to endanger the one person who can unite Ferelden against the Archdemon simply because she feels uneasy about the sort of magic that's used.

[ejoslin]

PanosSmirnakos wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

PanosSmirnakos wrote...

I liked Wynne, she is a deep character with an interesting back-story. She reminded me of a female version of Gandalf. But one of the main reasons I liked her more was her voice actress. Her voice fits perfectly with her in-game character model and her personality. IMO she and Sten have valid questions about how ready and mature the main warden is to handle the situation of a blight and lead / unite the people of Ferelden.

What are Wynne's concerns based on?  In what way has the warden shown themselves to be anything but ready and willing and working towards ending the blight?  Exactly what have they done to show themselves NOT mature and unable to unite the people?

I mean, I honestly don't get this.  There is nothing in game that shows the warden wavering or not living up to their duties at all.

I was trying to be realistic. In the game you are a young "soldier" without tons of experiences in war and suddenly you become a "general" of an important order which has the heavy task to save and unite a kingdom. I mean if Duncan and the rest of the experienced Fereldan Wardens didn't die in Ostagar how our warden was going to be the leader of the grey wardens so soon? But, because it's a video game, of course you are the special one who is going to kick @ss and take names. People don't know you, so that's why some of them have doubts about your skills and motives.

But Wynne DOES know you when she's giving her advice (unless you rush through the dialog I suppose).  And it's not like Wynne has any more experience in these matters than the gray warden does.  In some cases, she has less.

Her concerns are not based upon anything the warden has or has not done.  They are based somewhere in her head, perhaps because of how she reacts to real leadership (which you can actually see her refuse to take, and according to her codex, it's not the first time).  

Modifié par ejoslin, 10 février 2011 - 04:56 .

[Sarah1281]

I understand this. but with the situation at hand, perhaps the last thing needed to be used is yet more blood magic. Sort of like the last thing we need after receiving a ton of healing is more healing.. Just isn't all that necessary.

That's an odd example. If you just received a ton of healing, more healing won't harm you in the slightest. There has been a lot of blood magic used in the tower and the Warden using some will help get rid of all the abominations and demons. They really don't have anything in common.

Perhaps she believes the Warden is either a greater threat to her and all she represents, or at least a more immediate threat, than even the Archdemon himself. Isn't exactly a smart thing to do, but then again people tend to do "not-smart" things when they are pushed into a corner. I am sure that everyone does this, Wynne is no different to deserve the gallows for what she did than say... Loghain? Alistair? Sten? Jesus, Sten..... Killing a family of farmers..

I am of the opinion that stupidity should never just be overlooked and labeled okay because it's 'human' or other people can be equally stupid. If Wynne honestly believes that one blood mage who (remember, I only really care that she does this if the mages were saved so the annulment scenario does not apply) went out of their way to save the Circle and only showed up in the first place to get troops to end the Bilght - which is capable of far more damage than any one person - is a greater threat than the Blight than she is being an idiot. And unlike the idiocy of, say, Sten and the farmers he killed, Wynne's idiocy could doom the ENTIRE COUNTRY.

I am sure he/she was a formiddable spy for it to take Wynne until the cleansing of the tower before she realized it. She certainly didn't notice it first thing. As far as your Uldred comment, I am not sure where you are going with this, I did not mention siding with Uldred. I never did say Wynne was perfect, but again, the last thing I am sure anyone wants to see in an event full of blood mages is yet another blood mage. The only other defense I would have to add is that the scripting and dialogue options were poorly constructed... Should have been a persuasion option to allow Wynne to see that sometimes one must fight fire with fire I suppose.

I brought up Uldred in reference to the spy comment. What kind of spy could the mage Warden be if not a blood mage spy from Uldred? An Orlesian spy? Is Wynne Loghain now? If you didn't mean that the blood mage might secretly be part of the rebellion in Wynne's eye then what did you mean?

People don't know you, so that's why some of them have doubts about your skills and motives.

People should really wait to see if you actually have a flaw before attempting to help you correct it.

[ddv.rsa]

Wynne has good intentions and I don't think she's stupid exactly, just very short sighted. She can't see beyond the immediate situation. That's just part of her character.

[Sarah1281]

ddv.rsa wrote...

Wynne has good intentions and I don't think she's stupid exactly, just very short sighted. She can't see beyond the immediate situation. That's just part of her character.

Not being able to see beyond the immediate situation can lead you to do stupid things and I'd be hard-pressed to come up with a more stupid thing for Wynne to do than to knowingly get the only person trying to do anything about the Blight (and who, if she doesn't think is an evil blood mage, she believes is Ferelden's only hope) killed. And being a part of her character doesn't mean it's not stupid anymore than it being a human thing to do means it's not. We need to judge actions by their own merits and not how consistent it is for the person doing it or how many others would have done the same thing.

[ddv.rsa]

I don't think her thought process goes as far as realising she's killing the only one who can stop the blight. Not until it is too late, anyway. She wouldn't consciously doom Ferelden. I think it can be summed up like this:

Here is a blood mage. Blood magic is evil. I have a duty to stop evil. *rats out the warden*

The same logic applies when first encountering her and with the urn. Ultimately I agree that her actions in this case are stupid. I'm just trying to take everything into account before judging her too harshly.

Modifié par ddv.rsa, 10 février 2011 - 07:18 .

[Addai]

The Water God wrote...

ddv.rsa wrote...

Wynne has good intentions and I don't think she's stupid exactly, just very short sighted. She can't see beyond the immediate situation. That's just part of her character.

I don't know all of that sounds more like Leliana than Wynne.

And thus I love to hate them both.    I enjoy tormenting Wynne more, though.  Especially as a mage.

[Bahlgan]

LobselVith8 wrote...

She's willing to risk the lives of the children because Morrigan voiced her opinion, and the fact that she is bonded to a Spirit would make her an abomination in the eyes of KC Greagoir and the templars, if not the devs actual view of abominations being strictly with demons. That distinction would make little difference to the templars and the Chantry, who would kill her if they knew.

What the Templars think doesn't matter, an abomination requires a demon to possess the host, and there is no proof that Wynne is being possessed by the spirit. So until others can confirm that A) it is a DEMON, not a spirit possessing her and abominations are not strictly possessed by demons, but also can be by spirits, then there is nowhere else to go with this; it's just up to the player to decide. But I do not know of any lore that discredits my statements about this.

You also misread what I wrote: She seems to ready to challenge the Warden's use of blood magic to save the Circle, but keeps her own nature a secret. Wardens have no prohibition on blood magic, and she's in no place to question this, especially after the Warden saves the Circle from Anulment.

Assuming her spirit wishes no ill will, then that pretty much summons up why I doubt she's a hypocrite in this matter. See, as far as I am concerned, her powers do not endanger others around her unless they are used with pure neglect. Yes she is in no place, and I agree, but as far as her powers go, she has never mis used them, unlike the countless blood mages in the tower and fears the Warden might mis use them.

She's not an abomination by definition of the devs (only demons with mages) but she would be considered one in the eyes of the templars and the Chantry. They would kill her for it - make no mistake about it.

The Chantry has no right to define what is an abomination, despite that they hunt mages and protect society from the bad ones, and unfortunately those who are just accused wrongfully. The definition of abomination, as previously stated by me, is most supported to be one by the demons. Now whether or not that's true, doesn't affect the Chantry's opinions. Clearly, this part of the issue is their problem.

Blood magic or no blood magic, it has nothing to do with the purpose at hand. I find it irritating because she has no problem keeping her own nature a secret, but she'll call out the Warden for saving the Circle in front of the templars because she suspects blood magic was used? I find this to be a bit of a character flaw.

That would be incorrect if the Warden actually wanted to call for the Rite of Annulment, or if the Warden had mis used his/her powers to endanger the lives of the mages further more than those blasted revoltists already have. And if you find it a character flaw as I do, it again would be in my opinion on the Dev's hands. I do not suspect Wynne of being ungrateful to a blood mage for this part of the game. Any other part and I can understand her will to fight the Warden, like if the Warden used blood magic to slay the Dalish elves or something along the lines.

Is there a point to you referencing blood mages?

I would think so, they control demons. They are blood mages, and evidence supports blood magic involving the summoning of demons. It's only instinct to believe so. Do you know of any magic that involves summoning demons that isn't blood magic? If not, then that take us down to these demonic teachings.

And yes, it is a theory. No different than the heresay section in the Abomination codex that also doesn't have a fictional person listed as author, but still states it as an issue of heresay for the people of Thedas. Maybe it's likely that demons gave the knowledge of blood magic to humans, but then again, there's no proof to support this. It's like the claims about mages turning the Golden City into the Black City - no proof.

A theory no one can seem to prove wrong. There are more testaments supporting that this is true than false. I am sure that if something were actually meant to be false, that there would be confirmations elsewise. 

She thinks that the person who saved the Circle is a threat? Instead of dealing with this issue in private, Wynne felt it necessary to risk the life of the Warden to the templars, despite the fact that there's a Blight threatening the entire nation? Did she crack her skull when she fell down fighting that demon to save Petra?

Yes, indeed it seems reasonable. What if the Warden, if happened to be evil, wished to use his/her powers to spread the teachings almost in same manner as the Tevinter mages, who willingly and happily sacrifce slaves or those deemed lower class? I would certainly not let that happen. And as far as everyone's belief that the Warden is the only character who can stop a blight, that is true, that DOESN'T mean that no one can destory the first host of the Archdemon and weaken the forces. Though Wynne doesn't know this, it certainly wouldn't stop those ignorant of the blight from fighting. And again, you're not looking at her perspective, does she really THINK at that moment that the Grey Warden is the only one to stop the Blight? Last time I checked, Riordan spills the secret of that to only the Warden and Alistair/Loghain. Wynne wouldn't know any better, and I don't expect her to unless she is told of it firsthand.

I am of the opinion that stupidity should never just be overlooked and labeled okay because it's 'human' or other people can be equally stupid.If Wynne honestly believes that one blood mage who (remember, I only really care that she does this if the mages were saved so the annulment scenario does not apply) went out of their way to save the Circle and only showed up in the first place to get troops to end the Bilght - which is capable of far more damage than any one person - is a greater threat than the Blight than she is being an idiot. And unlike the idiocy of, say, Sten and the farmers he killed, Wynne's idiocy could doom the ENTIRE COUNTRY.p

It is not stupidity as much as just simple ignorance if the person has no idea, rightfuly, which she does, about the matter at hand. She has NO IDEA, NO IDEA that the Warden is the only one who can save the Blight. It is a secret guarded by the Grey Wardens, much like the joining. As far as Zevran goes, how HE knows is beyond me. The metagaming asepct really  is taking your perspective, and others' as well, of what she is thinking out of proportion; she does not know what we all know by the time the game is over. The only reason I knew before talking to Riordan is because a friend told me about it. If I were as knowledgeable, or as you say "stupid", as Wynne was when I first played the game without consultation from my friend I would certainly be in the same shoes and she were.

Modifié par Bahlgan, 11 février 2011 - 10:38 .

[ddv.rsa]

Bahlgan wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

She's willing to risk the lives of the children because Morrigan voiced her opinion, and the fact that she is bonded to a Spirit would make her an abomination in the eyes of KC Greagoir and the templars, if not the devs actual view of abominations being strictly with demons. That distinction would make little difference to the templars and the Chantry, who would kill her if they knew.

What the Templars think doesn't matter, an abomination requires a demon to possess the host, and there is no proof that Wynne is being possessed by the spirit. So until others can confirm that A) it is a DEMON, not a spirit possessing her and abominations are not strictly possessed by demons, but also can be by spirits, then there is nowhere else to go with this; it's just up to the player to decide. But I do not know of any lore that discredits my statements about this.

You're right in theory, but in practise the opinion of the templars is all that matters. If the templars decide someone is an abomination or maleficar almost no one in game will challenge them, technical definitions aside.

Modifié par ddv.rsa, 11 février 2011 - 10:40 .

[Bahlgan]

ddv.rsa wrote...

You're right in theory, but in practise the opinion of the templars is all that matters. If the templars decide someone is an abomination or maleficar almost no one in game will challenge them, technical definitions aside.

I understand. The Templars are one of the most powerful factions, other than the Crows, in influencing Thedas' politics and other backgrounds. But I talking about the definition from the players' perspective, our perspective, rather than those of the Templars. The question is do YOU feel that an abomination is strictly for demons, or do YOU feel that an abomination can be the result from a spirit as well?

Edit: Oops, just realized you edited your post... My bad..

Modifié par Bahlgan, 11 février 2011 - 10:44 .

[LobselVith8]

[quote]Bahlgan wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

She's willing to risk the lives of the children because Morrigan voiced her opinion, and the fact that she is bonded to a Spirit would make her an abomination in the eyes of KC Greagoir and the templars, if not the devs actual view of abominations being strictly with demons. That distinction would make little difference to the templars and the Chantry, who would kill her if they knew. [/quote]

What the Templars think doesn't matter, an abomination requires a demon to possess the host, and there is no proof that Wynne is being possessed by the spirit. So until others can confirm that A) it is a DEMON, not a spirit possessing her and abominations are not strictly possessed by demons, but also can be by spirits, then there is nowhere else to go with this; it's just up to the player to decide. But I do not know of any lore that discredits my statements about this. [/quote]

The Chantry controls the Circles throughout Thedas (save Tevinter) and they control the mages. Do I like that? No. Do I think it's morally right that armored drug addicts are in charge of men, women, and children? No. But the fact is that they can kill Wynne on their suspicions alone. No different than when the templars put a bounty on Morrigan in Witch Hunt (codex for the Orlesian Warden) because they think she's a blood mage...

[quote]Bahlgan wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

You also misread what I wrote: She seems to ready to challenge the Warden's use of blood magic to save the Circle, but keeps her own nature a secret. Wardens have no prohibition on blood magic, and she's in no place to question this, especially after the Warden saves the Circle from Anulment.[/quote]

Assuming her spirit wishes no ill will, then that pretty much summons up why I doubt she's a hypocrite in this matter. See, as far as I am concerned, her powers do not endanger others around her unless they are used with pure neglect. Yes she is in no place, and I agree, but as far as her powers go, she has never mis used them, unlike the countless blood mages in the tower and fears the Warden might mis use them. [/quote]

She is when she's willing to follow the Chantry line about blood mages, but not about possessed mages.

[quote]Bahlgan wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

She's not an abomination by definition of the devs (only demons with mages) but she would be considered one in the eyes of the templars and the Chantry. They would kill her for it - make no mistake about it.[/quote]

The Chantry has no right to define what is an abomination, despite that they hunt mages and protect society from the bad ones, and unfortunately those who are just accused wrongfully. The definition of abomination, as previously stated by me, is most supported to be one by the demons. Now whether or not that's true, doesn't affect the Chantry's opinions. Clearly, this part of the issue is their problem.[/quote]

The templars can murder someone they suspect of being an illegal mage (like the Magnificent D'Sims, who was killed because he pretended to heal people). If you think the templars would make an exception in Wynne's case, you clearly don't understand that their perspective on mages is a very narrow one.

[quote]Bahlgan wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Blood magic or no blood magic, it has nothing to do with the purpose at hand. I find it irritating because she has no problem keeping her own nature a secret, but she'll call out the Warden for saving the Circle in front of the templars because she suspects blood magic was used? I find this to be a bit of a character flaw.[/quote]

That would be incorrect if the Warden actually wanted to call for the Rite of Annulment, or if the Warden had mis used his/her powers to endanger the lives of the mages further more than those blasted revoltists already have. And if you find it a character flaw as I do, it again would be in my opinion on the Dev's hands. I do not suspect Wynne of being ungrateful to a blood mage for this part of the game. Any other part and I can understand her will to fight the Warden, like if the Warden used blood magic to slay the Dalish elves or something along the lines. [/quote]

I don't hate Wynne, I had her with my moiety crew and engaged in conversation with her, told her I thought the Circle was a prison and an oppressive place, and she never contested either term. The fact that she goes to Tevinter to help Shale try to regain her mortality is the prime reason I have no issue in having her along, and I don't hate her. I do have qualms about the fact that she seems to criticize me all the frakking time, though. The scene where she tries to get the Warden killed over blood magic is something I hold against her character. It doesn't matter what she was thinking, she was trying to get the Warden killed.

[quote]Bahlgan wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Is there a point to you referencing blood mages?[/quote]

I would think so, they control demons. They are blood mages, and evidence supports blood magic involving the summoning of demons. It's only instinct to believe so. Do you know of any magic that involves summoning demons that isn't blood magic? If not, then that take us down to these demonic teachings. [/quote]

Please don't insert speculation as proof. You have no proof from the devs or the actual game that demonology is tied to blood magic. Avernus' comments about making the wrong calculations assert the idea that demonology is not about mind control, but spells. Niall's reference to demonology makes it clear that he sees it as seperate from blood magic. If you have proof otherwise, feel free to provide it.

[quote]Bahlgan wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

And yes, it is a theory. No different than the heresay section in the Abomination codex that also doesn't have a fictional person listed as author, but still states it as an issue of heresay for the people of Thedas. Maybe it's likely that demons gave the knowledge of blood magic to humans, but then again, there's no proof to support this. It's like the claims about mages turning the Golden City into the Black City - no proof.[/quote]

A theory no one can seem to prove wrong. There are more testaments supporting that this is true than false. I am sure that if something were actually meant to be false, that there would be confirmations elsewise. [/quote]

Lack of evidence to support a claim doesn't make it true. Just because people think it's true doesn't make it true, either. People think the Maker is real, that Andraste was His Divine Bride, but there's no proof to support this. It doesn't stop people from thinking it's true, though.

[quote]Bahlgan wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

She thinks that the person who saved the Circle is a threat? Instead of dealing with this issue in private, Wynne felt it necessary to risk the life of the Warden to the templars, despite the fact that there's a Blight threatening the entire nation? Did she crack her skull when she fell down fighting that demon to save Petra?[/quote]

Yes, indeed it seems reasonable. What if the Warden, if happened to be evil, wished to use his/her powers to spread the teachings almost in same manner as the Tevinter mages, who willingly and happily sacrifce slaves or those deemed lower class? I would certainly not let that happen. And as far as everyone's belief that the Warden is the only character who can stop a blight, that is true, that DOESN'T mean that no one can destory the first host of the Archdemon and weaken the forces. Though Wynne doesn't know this, it certainly wouldn't stop those ignorant of the blight from fighting. And again, you're not looking at her perspective, does she really THINK at that moment that the Grey Warden is the only one to stop the Blight? Last time I checked, Riordan spills the secret of that to only the Warden and Alistair/Loghain. Wynne wouldn't know any better, and I don't expect her to unless she is told of it firsthand. [/quote]

Wynne would know that only the Warden can unite the land against Loghain, though. She would know that there is a civil war, and the Warden is actively trying to stop it. It's why she asks permission to leave with the Warden. I see no reason why she'd put the lives of an entire nation in jeapordy because of her views on blood magic. Blood magic isn't evil. Grey Wardens use blood magic. It isn't up to Wynne to dictate how the Grey Wardens conduct themselves.

[Sarah1281]

It is not stupidity as much as just simple ignorance if the person has no idea, rightfuly, which she does, about the matter at hand. She has NO IDEA, NO IDEA that the Warden is the only one who can save the Blight. It is a secret guarded by the Grey Wardens, much like the joining. As far as Zevran goes, how HE knows is beyond me. The metagaming asepct really is taking your perspective, and others' as well, of what she is thinking out of proportion; she does not know what we all know by the time the game is over. The only reason I knew before talking to Riordan is because a friend told me about it. If I were as knowledgeable, or as you say "stupid", as Wynne was when I first played the game without consultation from my friend I would certainly be in the same shoes and she were.

One important thing to remeber is that, unlike you, Wynne has grown up in Thedas. EVERYONE knows that the GWs claim to be the only ones who can end a Blight (and I think it's mentioned in every origin story so you hear it). They may not all believe that the GWs are literally the only ones who can do it but they all accept that GWs are very, very good at killing darkspawn.



Wynne has no idea WHY the GWs are the only ones who can save Ferelden, it is true. Just the same, if you look at some of her dialouge it is very clear that she believes this. As such, even if Wynne were wrong and anyone could permanently kill the Archdemon, she still chose to put her distaste of blood magic over what her own beliefs state is the only one who can save Ferelden after they just saved the Circle and Wynne's own life.



"Grey Wardens have no titles, they owe no allegiance to a king or lord. They cannot serve one people, they must serve them all, and protect them all. You are one of the two surviving Grey Wardens in Ferelden. You defend all of us, and much rests on your shoulders."

"It isn't healthy to throw yourself at a pack of darkspawn either, in order to save the world, so I'd say you're in no position to judge."

"No, not nothing. You are a Grey Warden... one of the last of the Fereldan Wardens. We depend on you now."

"There's that, of course, but there's more to being a Grey Warden than killing darkspawn and saving the world from the Blight. Ultimately, being a Grey Warden is about serving others, about serving all people, whether elves or dwarves or men. As a Grey Warden you are a guardian of men. And you guard them because their continued existence is more important than you are. Thus it is you who serves, not they."

"They have always defended us from the darkspawn, taking losses so we do not have to. People may have forgotten over the centuries, but nothing has changed. This knowledge has been blessing and burden to Grey Wardens past, and now, it shall be your blessing, and your burden."

[LobselVith8]

The Water God wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Blood magic isn't evil. Grey Wardens use blood magic. It isn't up to Wynne to dictate how the Grey Wardens conduct themselves.

Just because the Grey Wardens use it doesn't mean its not evil. In fact using the Grey Wardens to dictate whether something is evil or not just makes me laugh. The Grey wardens do anything to stop the blight, even burning down villages to keep it from falling into darkspawn hands. They also force people into their ranks against their will, and force them into a joining that has a pretty good chance of killing them (If not keep them from ever having a normal life)

They're called the "Grey" Wardens for a reason. In fact Duncan says the Grey wardens only occasionally use blood magic, and even he himself thinks that malificurs are a dangerous and also believes that the chantry is needed to watch over the mages.

First, Duncan openly admits he doubts whether the Chantry's laws against magic are even necessary. Second, Duncan never says "occasionally" when referring to Grey Wardens resorting to blood magic to defeat the darkspawn. Maybe you should do less laughing and get your facts in order. Third, the alternative to not doing what's necessary is humanity falling prey to the darkspawn, and the world falling prey to the Blight. They do what's necessary - so I don't see why it's wrong to mention that Grey Warden mages have used blood magic to save the world and stop the enemy.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 11 février 2011 - 08:18 .

[Sarah1281]

On the subject of Duncan's opinions about non-Chantry approved magic:



"What about abominations? Or blood magic? Do you deny that these things exist? A word of advice from someone who's battled abominations and worse: a cavalier attitude will only get you into trouble."



"There have been mages within the Grey Wardens who have needed to resort to blood magic to deal with the darkspawn. It is something to consider, certainly."



With the first, I think Duncan's just reminding you that blood mages and abominations are dangerous so you shouldn't underestimate them. It doesn't really matter how you feel about blood magic in general, blood mages ARE dangerous and if a blood mage is attacking you then that's a bad situation. I didn't see anything about him thinking the Chantry is right to control mages. He's too politic to give an opinion on that.

[Sarah1281]

Duncan agrees that both blood magic and abominations are dangerous and sounds very serious when he says it. He lashes back at the warden if they say the Chantry spreads lies or that the dangers of such things are overestimated.



He believes these things are dangerous. Blood Magic is evil, End of story.

You can't really take THAT conversation and translate it into 'blood magic is evil.'



Duncan says that magic is dangerous. Any idiot could tell you that but that doesn't mandate being locked away forever. The mage said that magic wasn't dangerous which is a stupid thing to say because it totally is. Duncan gives an example of when magic is dangerous. Mages are in more danger of being possessed than others which is why they need training (not imprisonment) and blood magic can be used to mind-control people as per the story he told about it.



The mage says that the dangers are overestimated and that may be true. Duncan is warning you that if you should face an abomination or blood mage in battle, not to underestimate them because it could get you killed. It is better to think they're more dangerous than they actually are so they can't take you by surprise.



Nowhere does he say or imply that the Chantry is right about imprisoning mages. Nowhere does he say blood magic is evil.



Blood magic, like pretty much anything at all ever, can be used for evil. It can be used to hurt innocent people but so can a sword and I don't really see people talking about how a non-mage's weapons are evil. Blood magic can also use nothing but your own blood as a last resort when you run out of mana and aren't looking to die. There is a difference between something's potential to be used for evil and something inherently being evil.

[Bahlgan]

@ The Water God

You do seem to back up your claims extremely well, but I do disagree with the debate as to whether or not blood magic is undeniably evil. I would certainly say it is based from an evil source, though the magic certainly is always sadistic and manipulative. The only character I know of who had used this magic without such judgment was that one blood mage from the Alley of Murders mod, and he's not even a canon character. In this case, for the most part I agree with your statement, but I still believe blood magic can be used for good, albeit I know of no mages who have done such.

Nowhere does he say or imply that the Chantry is right about imprisoning mages. Nowhere does he say blood magic is evil.

I love Duncan. I am a great fan of him, but I do not count Duncan's viewpoint as the Word of God approach. He is outweighed against most others who have seen and most likely suffered the magic firsthand.

By the way, I am not ignoring your previous resonse, I will get back to that later.. Probably tomorrow.

Modifié par Bahlgan, 11 février 2011 - 09:48 .

[LobselVith8]

Bahlgan wrote...

@ The Water God

You do seem to back up your claims extremely well, but I do disagree with the debate as to whether or not blood magic is undeniably evil.

I didn't realize Duncan calling into doubt the necessity of the Chantry's rules against magic supported Water's argument.

Bahlgan wrote...

I would certainly say it is based from an evil source, though the magic certainly is always sadistic and manipulative.

We don't know where blood magic originated from, we have claims it originated from demons, nothing more. Considering that the templars use of a phylactery is as much blood magic as the Joining, it's wrong to say it's always sadistic and manipulative. Even Finn's use of magic to find the Eluvian could be considered blood magic, as Finn admitted.

Bahlgan wrote...

I love Duncan. I am a great fan of him, but I do not count Duncan's viewpoint as the Word of God approach. He is outweighed against most others who have seen and most likely suffered the magic firsthand.

The Chantry isn't the Word of God on mages, either. All we have to do is see the Chasind tribes, the Dalish clans, or the mages of the nation of Rivain to see that not everyone buys into the Chantry line about imprisoning mages.

[LobselVith8]

The Water God wrote...

Exactly. It can be used for extreme good if in the hands of the right person. If you use your own blood to supply it can almost seem heroic to sacrafice yourself like that. Is Jowan using blood magic to save redcliffe evil? No. I'm sure theres plenty of fantasy examples where a hero had to use black magic in order to save his friends.

But what im implying is that its meant to be a extreamly dangerous form of magic that causes a lot more harm than good. And is misused by the majority of people.

More harm than good? I think the existance of the Grey Wardens is a very good thing for Thedas, considering they're the only reason that the Blights even end. Wouldn't be possible without blood magic.