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[Eber]

Kappa Neko wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

I don't understand why everybody calls Wynne a hypocrite.

Wynne asks to leave the Tower to go travelling with the Warden. Irving says that they need her at the Tower and she still insists on leaving. She has also been asked to be First Enchanter but doesn't want the job. Wynne tells the Warden that nothing is more important than being a Warden. Wynne tells the mage Warden that, despite th is, after the Blight she expects said Warden to go back to the Tower because the Circle needs the Warden. Wynne tells Aneirin who is finally happy and who the templars tried to murder and who might try to kill again on sight that he should go back to the Tower because the Circle needs him. I feel that someone who ignores the fact that the Circle needs her and yet goes off telling other mages (especially the Warden who she's already told will always have important Warden things to do) that they are needed by the Circle is a hypocrite.

Yes, she leaves because she believes that joining the Warden is - for the moment - more important. No? She thinks the Circle can spare her. I don't see that as a contradiction.

She has other reasons for wanting to follow the Warden too. She doesn't want to spend her life "tiptoeing around the Chantry" but she expects the Warden and Anerin to.

Greagoir (if Irving is dead): *The Circle needs you please be the new First Enchanter*
Wynne: I can not accept this offer. I wish to teach and to learn, and I will not spend the rest of my life tiptoeing around the Chantry.

[Sarah1281]

I don't get the whole preachy thing, she's concerned you're going to make the same 'mistake' she herself made around your age. That's what I got out of it, she wants to avoid pain for the warden and whoever they are involved in, until you convince her otherwise.

Have you done it with all the romances? With Alistair and Leliana she speaks of you hurting them and not them hurting you (and calls Leliana 'guileless' which is pretty much the opposite of an ex-bard no matter how sweet she may be) even if you call her on it and with Morrigan and Zevran she seems disgusted that you two might be having sex and disaspproves of the casual sex-based relationship she imagines you two have...while simultaneously thinking that this relationship might prevent you from doing your duty.



With Alistair, this is a reasonable worry because of the DR. Of course, it's not like Wynne knows about the GW sacrifice so she's only right accidentally.

Ingame when the player decides to be a blood mage you just press a button and that's it. RP wise there is more behind it, many mages thirsting for more power and killing other ppl for that isn't what I call acceptable.

Except that you DON'T have to thirst for power or kill other people in order to learn blood magic. In-game you can only get the specialization through a deal with a demon but Jowan learned it out of a book. And since the Warden just managed to defeat all the blood mages and save everybody, immediately reporting them to the Chantry is really obnoxious. Apparently Wynne's savior isn't good enough for her. What does Wynne really think will happen? The Warden would be sentenced to execution and killed and Ferelden would be overcome by the Blight. Is the fact that the Warden happens to be a blood mage REALLY worth that? And unlike with other characters who don't know that it's the Wardens or death, Wynne actively believes that so she doesn't get a pass on not knowing.

[HolyAvenger]

Yes, because not liking a character that you do automatically means we're 'blinkered.' How presumptuous.

Stupid comment is stupid.

Now, now ladies. No need to be so defensive, I didn't name any names.

That said, a lot of the arguments I do hear against Wynne are blinkered, in my opinion, so shoot me. Unlike almost every other DAO character, people ignore or outright dismiss her her good qualities in favour of focussing on her relatively small flaws. She's preachy and she gives you advice. Oh noes, the b*tch!

Call that stupid or presumptuous if you like, but that's just the feeling I get reading Wynne threads.

[Sarah1281]

Actually...people "ignore or outright dismiss" the good qualities of EVERY character. All of them. I've seen this done to Alistair, Loghain, Anora, Zevran, Morrigan, Oghren, Sten, Leliana...the list goes on. I don't see how it's at all strange that if you don't like a character you tend to see more of their flaws than their good points just like how a fan of a character sees more of their good points than their flaws.



In a discussion about what's good or bad about her (especially when people ask you to explain how she's preachy or hypocritical) why should people who don't like her gush about how she's a great healer and means well? The fans are already talking about that.



I've seen arguments defending Wynne that I don't agree with (ex: "It's okay that Wynne tries to kill you in defence of ashes you already destroyed because she's decided that if you're willing to do that then you're not the kind of hero Ferelden needs") but that doesn't make Wynne fans 'blinkered.'



One thing that FEELS unique to Wynne fans but that I'm sure isn't is the belief some of them have that you can't dislike her without having something wrong with you. It's not that people who don't like Wynne don't understand her, it's not like we want her to be perfect, it's not like we're 'blinkered.' We just don't like her and thus don't see why we should talk about her good points. Should we end every post talking about her bad points with 'But she does mean well, really' to prove that we don't think that she has no redeeming qualities whatsoever?



And you don't HAVE to name names when you called the people on here (namely: us) 'blinkered.'

[Mariefoxprice83]

Wynne never tried to kill me after I defiled the Ashes. She just walked off, but maybe that was because of a previously good relationship with the Warden?

[Sarah1281]

Mariefoxprice83 wrote...

Wynne never tried to kill me after I defiled the Ashes. She just walked off, but maybe that was because of a previously good relationship with the Warden?

No, it's because Wynne (and Leliana unless she's hardened and you threaten her) will try to kill you if she's present. If not, she walks off (as will Leliana unless you lie). I'm not sure what idiot told Wynne you defiled the ashes, particularly if you didn't take anyone with you. Maybe it was the 'spirit' inside of her? 

[mousestalker]

I have a theory about Wynne and her 'spirit'. Given what her prezzies are, does anyone else think she's possessed by a Spirit of spirits? It would explain a lot, you know.

[Mariefoxprice83]

I purposely avoided taking Wynne, Leliana and I think Alistair to the temple because I already knew I was going to defile the ashes. I had Zevran, Sten and Shale.

[Isaidlunch]

A few of the many reasons I dislike Wynne:

1) Lecturing the Warden on duty when she ignores her own responsibility to the Circle.

2) Being shortsighted and trying to kill one or both of the only remaining Grey Wardens with a Blight on the loose over something as trivial as the ashes/blood magic (and the way she handled the latter was pretty disgusting)

3) She's completely indoctrinated by the Chantry and can't think for herself on matters concerning them.

4) Overall preachiness



As a character I like that she has these flaws, it's what makes Wynne Wynne (pun not intended). She's far from perfect but I don't expect or want her to be. I enjoy her character for what it is. That's just my opinion of course.

[USArmyParatrooper]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Actually...people "ignore or outright dismiss" the good qualities of EVERY character. All of them. I've seen this done to Alistair, Loghain, Anora, Zevran, Morrigan, Oghren, Sten, Leliana...the list goes on. I don't see how it's at all strange that if you don't like a character you tend to see more of their flaws than their good points just like how a fan of a character sees more of their good points than their flaws.

In a discussion about what's good or bad about her (especially when people ask you to explain how she's preachy or hypocritical) why should people who don't like her gush about how she's a great healer and means well? The fans are already talking about that.

I've seen arguments defending Wynne that I don't agree with (ex: "It's okay that Wynne tries to kill you in defence of ashes you already destroyed because she's decided that if you're willing to do that then you're not the kind of hero Ferelden needs") but that doesn't make Wynne fans 'blinkered.'

One thing that FEELS unique to Wynne fans but that I'm sure isn't is the belief some of them have that you can't dislike her without having something wrong with you. It's not that people who don't like Wynne don't understand her, it's not like we want her to be perfect, it's not like we're 'blinkered.' We just don't like her and thus don't see why we should talk about her good points. Should we end every post talking about her bad points with 'But she does mean well, really' to prove that we don't think that she has no redeeming qualities whatsoever?

And you don't HAVE to name names when you called the people on here (namely: us) 'blinkered.'

Ignoring the good qualities of Loghain is not unlike ignoring the good qualities of Adolf Hitler. Hatred for Wynne come down to disliking aspects of her personality. Hatred for Loghain comes down to betraying the king at the turning point of an epic battle, hiring assassins to kill the Gray Wardens and dishonestly accusing them of killing the king, maintaining close ties and friendship with a man who slaughtered every man, woman and child in the Cousland family, selling slaves on the black market, being complicit to the use of torture, ya know... that sort of thing.

But in the interest of being fair I will say he seemed to love his daughter very much. Sure, she's a very smart and observant woman and she feared her father would kill her, but he did seem to love her.

Modifié par USArmyParatrooper, 06 février 2011 - 11:43 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Wow you just made a Hitler comparison and meant it.



You lost the internet.

Like forever.

[ddv.rsa]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Wow you just made a Hitler comparison and meant it.

You lost the internet.
Like forever.

He lost the internet? 

[ddv.rsa]

imo Napoleon would have been a fairer comparison.

[USArmyParatrooper]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Wow you just made a Hitler comparison and meant it.

You lost the internet.
Like forever.

Of course I made the comparison, which is something I would never do with trivial similarities.

When a man committs attrocities for the sake of power, like committing mass murder or enslaving a people - others tend to ignore their "good" qualities.

[Melca36]

USArmyParatrooper wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Wow you just made a Hitler comparison and meant it.

You lost the internet.
Like forever.

Of course I made the comparison, which is something I would never do with trivial similarities.

When a man committs attrocities for the sake of power, like committing mass murder or enslaving a people - others tend to ignore their "good" qualities.

And what were Hitler's "Good qualities"?  <_<

[Notmarki]

Wynne was surprisingly one of my favourite characters this play through. I've never paid attention to her before but i love her story after playing it all. From the spirit inside her to anerin

[HolyAvenger]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Actually...people "ignore or outright dismiss" the good qualities of EVERY character. All of them. I've seen this done to Alistair, Loghain, Anora, Zevran, Morrigan, Oghren, Sten, Leliana...the list goes on. I don't see how it's at all strange that if you don't like a character you tend to see more of their flaws than their good points just like how a fan of a character sees more of their good points than their flaws.

In a discussion about what's good or bad about her (especially when people ask you to explain how she's preachy or hypocritical) why should people who don't like her gush about how she's a great healer and means well? The fans are already talking about that.

Perhaps. In my (admittedly short) stay on the boards, the levels of fanrage I've seen against Wynne is unmatched. Loghain possibly comes close, but even there the debate is more even-handed. But that goes to the point I was making about people being blinkered. With every other character (yes even professional assassin, the panic-stricken warrior who butchered a family of helpless farmers, the selfish and callous manipulator and the traitor who tries to have you killed) there is a lot more balance to most people's critiques- they can appreciate the multi-faceted nature of all those characters. The Wynne threads seem to be a lot more one-eyed. Which makes no sense to me as her flaws aren't as massive. But hey I understand that might just be me.

One thing that FEELS unique to Wynne fans but that I'm sure isn't is the belief some of them have that you can't dislike her without having something wrong with you. It's not that people who don't like Wynne don't understand her, it's not like we want her to be perfect, it's not like we're 'blinkered.' We just don't like her and thus don't see why we should talk about her good points. Should we end every post talking about her bad points with 'But she does mean well, really' to prove that we don't think that she has no redeeming qualities whatsoever?

Possibly. Personally I don't think that way, indeed I too have found her annoying in my playthroughs in some cases/conversations. There's nothing wrong with not liking her, just as there's nothing wrong with thinking Alistair's a coward, Leliana is crazy, Oghren's a fool or Morrigan is self-centred. However, whenever I've read Wynne threads, its not that I feel anti-Wynne posters need to post about her redeeming qualities. Its just some of them simply refuse to acknowledge she has some. They can't seem to process the fact. I feel like I'm going around in circles when I try to explain why its reasonable for her to act in certain ways to certain people. Hence the blinkered comment 

And you don't HAVE to name names when you called the people on here (namely: us) 'blinkered.'

Wow. Yes every post I make that refers to posters on BSN definitely means I'm talking about each and every single individual here. Yep.

[Sarah1281]

You know, when Godwin's Law  is invoked, rational debate becomes impossible. You just can't get beyond that.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 07 février 2011 - 12:18 .

[Ninotchka]

Which of the BW writers wrote Wynne? Just curious.

[Aeowyn]

Sheryl Chee

[USArmyParatrooper]

Melca36 wrote...

And what were Hitler's "Good qualities"?  <_<

I have no idea. But then, that sort of makes my point.

[Ninotchka]

Aeowyn wrote...

Sheryl Chee

Wow! I had no idea Sheryl wrote her. I really love Wynne. She's had a permanent place in my party in most of my playthroughs except when I play mage myself. 
I think I'm going to love Sheryl Chee's Isabela in DA2 then

[Ryzaki]

^That. Personally I don't find Wynne to be any more hypocritical than alot of the rest of the cast and far less annoying than certain characters. But I'm odd like that /shrugs.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 07 février 2011 - 01:05 .

[Addai]

HolyAvenger wrote...

Possibly. Personally I don't think that way, indeed I too have found her annoying in my playthroughs in some cases/conversations. There's nothing wrong with not liking her, just as there's nothing wrong with thinking Alistair's a coward, Leliana is crazy, Oghren's a fool or Morrigan is self-centred. However, whenever I've read Wynne threads, its not that I feel anti-Wynne posters need to post about her redeeming qualities. Its just some of them simply refuse to acknowledge she has some. They can't seem to process the fact. I feel like I'm going around in circles when I try to explain why its reasonable for her to act in certain ways to certain people. Hence the blinkered comment 

Why should we talk about her redeeming qualities?  We're not writing literary essays here dude, we're shooting the poo about a video game.  Face it, Wynne is the character many of us love to hate.  In-game you have very little opportunity to tell her to bugger off, so I think that's part of the reason we enjoy tormenting her here.

If it would make you feel better, I'd write about how much I hate Leliana and think she's a crazy **** with very few redeeming qualities?

Oh, and trying to attack the person she regards as humanity's only hope for nothing more than her religious zealotry is a pretty big flaw. 

Modifié par Addai67, 07 février 2011 - 01:09 .

[Ninotchka]

Addai67 wrote...

Face it, Wynne is the character many of us love to hate.  In-game you have very little opportunity to tell her to bugger off, so I think that's part of the reason we enjoy tormenting her here.

You're not tormenting her here. You're attempting to torment the players who like Wynne. But you fail