361 réponses à ce sujet

[antigravitycat]

Kappa Neko wrote...

Aeowyn wrote...

Sten regrets that he lost control over his emotions. That's his biggest issue. Considering Zevran's background I can understand his reasoning and regrets as well. They admit their flaws.
Wynne never does.

No? Then what is the whole story about Aneirin about?? Her problem is not that she doesn't admit mistakes and character flaws, it's not realizing that she might be repeating these mistakes. Because she  thinks she's learned her lesson. She believes to know what's best for the Warden, as she believed to know how to teach Aneirin. Only now she's doing it in a different more gentle way. So yeah, I get why people don't like her trying to dictate your life. It's just that I think she's often right in what she says. I don't even mind her telling me to break up with Alistair. Because, again, I do get her point. Besides, she's probably never been in love like that. So of course it's easy for her to say such a cold thing. She does apologize, too.

Since we Wynne fans are getting beaten for bringing up certain arguments over and over, let me say I still don't get why she is disliked for disapproving of everything she' disagrees about. As I said before, ALL the characters are like that! Would somebody please explain to me why Wynne is worse than the others? You cannot make them change their attitude. Even in Mass Effect, the only one you can actually change is Garrus.
I screwed up with Sten right at the beginning during the conversation about mages. I was playing a mage and told him that he's being narrow minded He disapproved of EVERYTHING I did story-wise and stopped talking to me early on. Same with Zev. Brushed him off when he hit on me. Ouh, didn't like that! Told him his attitude towards killing disgusted me No more talking to Zev early on in the game. Plus he was the only one who tried to kill me (which actually makes sense given his personality). And don't get me started on Morrigan. Talking to that woman is like walking a mine field! I had to reload a lot because I couldn't even tease her a little like Alistair. SO easily offended Alistair is very pissed when you don't handle Connor right.
So? How is Wynne worse?

thumbs up for your statement kappa neko. 
I think nothing more needs to be said and I won't add any more to this discussion - seems pointless.
Some people are really desperate finding arguments and maintaining a concept of an enemy at all cost. Let them have their way. What bugs me is that they all come here to rant. Peace lol! 

Modifié par antigravitycat, 07 février 2011 - 04:57 .

[Sarah1281]

All the other characters had moments when I felt for them (well except the obligatory comic relief dwarf).

You know, the 'obligatory comic relief dwarf' had his wife leave him while she took their entire merged family down to the Deep Roads turning him from a respected warrior to a disgraced laughingstock who is the only one to really believe that they're still alive and when he finally finds his wife again he finds out that not only did she leave him for a woman but she purposely had their family destroyed (including some turned into broodmothers) so she can have mindless grunts to throw at the traps a genius like her apparently can't work out. I really think that's one of the most horrifying things in the game and worse than the backstories of a few of the companions.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 07 février 2011 - 05:02 .

[Kappa Neko]

Amazon Queen wrote...
All the other characters had moments when I felt for them (well except the obligatory comic relief dwarf). I  could never warm to Wynne.

I almost cried when Wynne told me she ws dying. And soon.
Seriously! My two fav characters (add Alistair) both doomed to die (he sacrificed himself) was emotionally quite upsetting. At least Wynne doesn't die during the game...
I can feel for about anyone, given enough background. I'll have to yet explore Oghren and Zev some more in order for that to happen. But it's gonna happen, I'm sure.

[sevalaricgirl]

Ah Wynne. My femmagewarden likes her but that is because my mage was Irving's star pupil. I did get rid of her before doing the Uldred battle because I was sick of Irving telling Wynne that she was behind his rescue and her agreeing (with help of course when she was actually unconscious for most of the battle) and her dissing my warden's relationship with Alistair, like my warden is going to hurt him. Bugger off Wynne. She does apologize and she does mention in a banter that Alistair makes the warden happy and makes him blush by mentioning swaying hips and telling him where babies come from. I don't like the Return To Ostagar comment about Alistair ending up in bed with her. I wish my warden could have said something to her right then and there. There are many things to like and dislike about Wynne. She isn't my favorite character and certainly isn't my least favorite character. I like them all for their nuances even Morrigan.

BTW, I never let Alistair die.  I'd tie him down if he didn't agree to do the DR and let Morrigan at him, lol.

Modifié par sevalaricgirl, 07 février 2011 - 06:28 .

[Bahlgan]

Bigdoser wrote...

You can't compare human culture to qunari culture the very fact that sten lost his sword means that he can NEVER EVER go home until he finds it and finding a sword on a country during a civil war and a blight? Good luck with that but thanks to pc plot powers you find the sword.

Regardless of culture, I am sure that murder in the Qun is a forbidden act. His losing his sword still doesn't justify the picking apart of those families. At most he should have lost his temper and destroy the homes saying Hulk Smash. Those farmers were innocent and did say to him they couldn't find the sword. Sten knew they were truthful, so why slaughter them?

Zevran did NOT slit the throat of Rinna. Talisan did. He did mock her though and let him do it. This also lead to him trying to commit suicide by gray warden.

Hmm did he? Could have sworn Zevran personally saw to it. I cannot prove you wrong, so I will let it slide for now. But he did have somewhat a hand in the deal, and that is bad enough for me. If I saw my friend kill someone and I was responsible for tieing him/her up, even though I do not physically see to it, I had a part in the murder, or at least that's how I see it.

Sten regrets that he lost control over his emotions. That's his biggest issue. Considering Zevran's background I can understand his reasoning and regrets as well. They admit their flaws. 

Wynne never does. She is aware that she is preaching a lot, but still she never stops. Not even when you ask her to. Seriously woman. Honestly, the only one who can tell her to shut up is Loghain.

Haha! Well it is a good thing I read Kappa Neko's response otherwise you would have received a double slap for it instead of just the one. Yes that's true though, Sten and Zevran admit their flaws, and as you clearly know now so does Wynne. Everyone has a flaw or an emotion to get off or to admit to the Warden. That's the thing about the Warden, being a commander and the party leader, he needs to make sure that all matters between comrades-in-arms are dealt with smoothly without affecting morale. So of course, as you know now, saying Wynne has no faults to admit is folly at best. 

Hell it's too bad that my Warden couldn't have expressed his feelings for failing to protect his family as a Cousland Noble. They did a decent job at the Gauntlet, but I wanted to see more of it at camp; his emotions.

Yes, It's Wynne's way of saying 'eff you--totally.' Mainly I came by to say that darkspawn don't eat people, though. They don't eat anything at all, according to David Gaider. Rend, mutilate, dismember, yes. Eat, no.

Really? Sounds a tad too good to be true. By any chance at all, can you either point me to this discussion or provide a link? I know the Childer Grubs and Hatchlings eat others, mainly other Darkspawn though.

Modifié par Bahlgan, 07 février 2011 - 06:58 .

[Aeowyn]

She doesn't say "I hope the darkspawn eat you." She says "I hope the darkspawn take you. You're no better than them". Two completely different things.

And regards to Wynne and Aneirin? Really? You say that's her way of showing regrets? The first thing she says after she apologises for being a hag to him and after he says:
"I have put that behind me and you should too. I didn't fit in with the templars and your Chantry... my path lay elsewhere."
Is:
"Irving is a reasonable man. He will find some way for you to return. The Circle needs new blood. It needs to change."

Yeah, this to a guy who nearly got killed by Templars. I'm sure he wants to return to their watch.

And then she goes on about how my Mage Warden should help rebuild the Circle, because it's her responsibility. Excuse me, Wynne, but where's your bloody responsibility? Irving asks her to become a First Enchanter and she says "No" because she wants to travel. Yeah, well, my Warden just spent the last year stopping a Civil War and ending a Blight, she's going to Bahamas for a long vacation, and not back to rot in Kinloch Hold.

Modifié par Aeowyn, 07 février 2011 - 07:09 .

[Sarah1281]

Hmm did he? Could have sworn Zevran personally saw to it. I cannot prove you wrong, so I will let it slide for now. But he did have somewhat a hand in the deal, and that is bad enough for me. If I saw my friend kill someone and I was responsible for tieing him/her up, even though I do not physically see to it, I had a part in the murder, or at least that's how I see it.

Something worth considering, I think, is the circumstances behind this. Zevran and (possibly) Taliesin honestly believed that Rinna had betrayed the Crows by warning their target. What would have happened if this was true, they all returned to the Crows, and the Crows found out what Rinna did?

[Ninotchka]

MorGothic wrote...

You do know how a Broodmother is created, right?

That's what Wynne, wishes on a female Warden, I'd hardly call that laughable.

Well she doesn't actually say that does she. I called it laughable because if that's the best she could come up with, it's rather meek. I mean come on, my Warden kicks darkspawn ass for a living, don't ya know

I belive it's around 30ish (I want to say < 24 for some reason (?)).

Alot of the time when people don't like a character they simple don't use them / talk to them, being betrayed by Zevran is a good example of this; if you give him no reason to be loyal to you, why should he? 

Wynne (imo) is different, it's her nagging, her unwelcomed/unwarranted opinions and her hypocrisy that makes her interesting, even if that interest is directed as dislike (or hate) for her.

I don't know but iirc my approval rating with him was at around 60? Anyway, needless to say before I had ever started reading these forums and spoilers I didn't expect him to try to assassinate me a second time so I was fuming when it happened.

Loyalty? I don't feel that my PC owes him anything from the get go. My PC is the warden, he is totally expendable.

Modifié par Ninotchka, 07 février 2011 - 07:49 .

[shatteredstar56]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Hmm did he? Could have sworn Zevran personally saw to it. I cannot prove you wrong, so I will let it slide for now. But he did have somewhat a hand in the deal, and that is bad enough for me. If I saw my friend kill someone and I was responsible for tieing him/her up, even though I do not physically see to it, I had a part in the murder, or at least that's how I see it.

Something worth considering, I think, is the circumstances behind this. Zevran and (possibly) Taliesin honestly believed that Rinna had betrayed the Crows by warning their target. What would have happened if this was true, they all returned to the Crows, and the Crows found out what Rinna did?

If the Crows had been merciful, they would have just killed Rinna and let her death serve a warning.  Since I don't suspect that's the case, they would have probably killed all three of them based on conspiracy.

When Zevran betrayed me I considered going back and killing him, but instead went back and won his approval. Now him and Alister are vying for my attentions, not that bad a thing.  I don't hold it against him now, he's just an opportunist, and wants freedom.  Compared to the Warden's chances of making alive, with Zevran making it alive if he goes back with Talisan, I'm still surprised he chooses the Warden, even with high affection.

Modifié par shatteredstar56, 07 février 2011 - 07:53 .

[Aeowyn]

The approval needed to get Zevran's loyalty is 26.

[Amazon Queen]

Sarah1281 wrote...

All the other characters had moments when I felt for them (well except the obligatory comic relief dwarf).

You know, the 'obligatory comic relief dwarf' had his wife leave him while she took their entire merged family down to the Deep Roads turning him from a respected warrior to a disgraced laughingstock who is the only one to really believe that they're still alive and when he finally finds his wife again he finds out that not only did she leave him for a woman but she purposely had their family destroyed (including some turned into broodmothers) so she can have mindless grunts to throw at the traps a genius like her apparently can't work out. I really think that's one of the most horrifying things in the game and worse than the backstories of a few of the companions.

And he was so deeply affected by her death that a few days later hes pestering my character for help fixing him up with an old flame. It not the story I don't like its Oghren.

[Bahlgan]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Something worth considering, I think, is the circumstances behind this. Zevran and (possibly) Taliesin honestly believed that Rinna had betrayed the Crows by warning their target. What would have happened if this was true, they all returned to the Crows, and the Crows found out what Rinna did?

There is nothing wrong with neutralizing a target or a possible defect (it depends on the definition and the conditions, but whatever). By Zevran's feelings towards the matter, it seemed a whole lot more than silencing a snitch. It seemed like something Taliesan had a personal matter, and I DO mean personal, towards her.

And in my opinion, the Crows are a bunch of psuedo-elitists anyway; according to Zevran, they kill their assassins for failing to complete their target. With the way Zevran fought and lost to the Warden (and if many failed like Zevran has), I would think that the Crows would be hiring a bunch of pan-handlers off the streets to replace their massive losses.

And he was so deeply affected by her death that a few days later hes pestering my character for help fixing him up with an old flame. It not the story I don't like its Oghren.

Perhaps, just saying perhaps, maybe Oghren is the way he is BECAUSE of what happened to him? The people who are the hardest to love are the ones who need it the most. Not saying you should run over there and kiss him or anything, but it's something to consider. 

Modifié par Bahlgan, 07 février 2011 - 08:49 .

[ejoslin]

Bahlgan wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Something worth considering, I think, is the circumstances behind this. Zevran and (possibly) Taliesin honestly believed that Rinna had betrayed the Crows by warning their target. What would have happened if this was true, they all returned to the Crows, and the Crows found out what Rinna did?

There is nothing wrong with neutralizing a target or a possible defect (it depends on the definition and the conditions, but whatever). By Zevran's feelings towards the matter, it seemed a whole lot more than silencing a snitch. It seemed like something Taliesan had a personal matter, and I DO mean personal, towards her.

And in my opinion, the Crows are a bunch of psuedo-elitists anyway; according to Zevran, they kill their assassins for failing to complete their target. With the way Zevran fought and lost to the Warden (and if many failed like Zevran has), I would think that the Crows would be hiring a bunch of pan-handlers off the streets to replace their massive losses.

And he was so deeply affected by her death that a few days later hes pestering my character for help fixing him up with an old flame. It not the story I don't like its Oghren.

Perhaps, just saying perhaps, maybe Oghren is the way he is BECAUSE of what happened to him? The people who are the hardest to love are the ones who need it the most. Not saying you should run over there and kiss him or anything, but it's something to consider. 

That Zevran and Taliesen were lovers is a established fact in the story.  My guess is the crows don't fail often.  But they buy their recruits as children, they don't pick up panhandlers.  Zevran's crew were hired mercenaries.  But he wanted to die anyway.  Had he wanted to be successful, he probably would have approached the group like Leliana did, and used seduction or poison (his two specialties) to kill them.  Not a straight out ambush where the warden is warned ahead of time that they're going to be attacked.

Oh, Wynne?  I honestly don't think she was written to be wise and all knowing -- I think she was meant to be a bit preachy as well.  She's flawed.  That people like and dislike her is a credit to her writing.

[Bahlgan]

ejoslin wrote...

That Zevran and Taliesen were lovers is a established fact in the story.

I understand Zevran is bisexual and all, but I do not remember him saying he and Taliesan were lovers. Quite contrary, I thought Zevran was a lover to Rinna, and that was a part to his extreme sorrow for having her killed in the fashion which she was.

My guess is the crows don't fail often.  But they buy their recruits as children, they don't pick up panhandlers.  Zevran's crew were hired mercenaries.  But he wanted to die anyway.  Had he wanted to be successful, he probably would have approached the group like Leliana did, and used seduction or poison (his two specialties) to kill them.  Not a straight out ambush where the warden is warned ahead of time that they're going to be attacked.

Haha, the pan-handler comment I made earlier was in the form of sarcasm, but nevertheless to express how desperate the Crows would be if their numbers thinned out because of a little policy I call a miserable accusation. As far as your call on him using poisons or seduction goes, it would definitely seem an effective method, I even remember his claim on that mage he ended up seducing on his one story. That jack-of-trades though still reminds me more of Leliana than Zevran, even though they both have exercised cautious practices. Would seem out of style for Zevran to attack without stealth first.

Oh, Wynne?  I honestly don't think she was written to be wise and all knowing -- I think she was meant to be a bit preachy as well.  She's flawed.  That people like and dislike her is a credit to her writing.

Then with all due respect to those who wrote Wynne's story, and to those who do not tolerate her (as opposed to anyone else), that is all their problem and they will have to deal with it the way they see fit; most would probably have her hanged or poisoned by Zevran no less, hah thought they might like that idea. I would encourage a little more acceptance from her onto the Warden. I do not remember where but someone made a swift comback on the forums describing Alistair's refusal to join the Grey Wardens due to sparing Loghain as "poor storywriting." I don't know if that's true, but I would certainly be inclined to make my own damn conan if so. 

It all comes down to this for those who believe in numbers: Everyone serves a unique purpose in the party. If so, I might even make a thread out of this to clarify later on.

Edit: To be clear, I am not stricken by those who refuse to see her as all-knowing and wise, as you described, I am stricken that some people can tolerate all the other party members save Wynne. I truly do not see how she is worse than anyone else. Everyone has their issues.

Modifié par Bahlgan, 07 février 2011 - 11:21 .

[Addai]

It's a single player game and if a party member isn't mandatory, there's no reason why someone shouldn't leave Wynne a char stain on the Tower floor if they so choose. I only took Leliana along because of Alistair's cute speech, and both she and Wynne stay in camp permanently, so what's really the point in recruiting them at all? Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. On your first game sure, see all the content there is to see, but after that it's old territory.

[LobselVith8]

Aeowyn wrote...

She doesn't say "I hope the darkspawn eat you." She says "I hope the darkspawn take you. You're no better than them". Two completely different things.

And regards to Wynne and Aneirin? Really? You say that's her way of showing regrets? The first thing she says after she apologises for being a hag to him and after he says:
"I have put that behind me and you should too. I didn't fit in with the templars and your Chantry... my path lay elsewhere."
Is:
"Irving is a reasonable man. He will find some way for you to return. The Circle needs new blood. It needs to change."

Yeah, this to a guy who nearly got killed by Templars. I'm sure he wants to return to their watch.

And then she goes on about how my Mage Warden should help rebuild the Circle, because it's her responsibility. Excuse me, Wynne, but where's your bloody responsibility? Irving asks her to become a First Enchanter and she says "No" because she wants to travel. Yeah, well, my Warden just spent the last year stopping a Civil War and ending a Blight, she's going to Bahamas for a long vacation, and not back to rot in Kinloch Hold.

She does help Shale try to regain her dwarven nature, but she also tries to kill the Warden because Morrigan dared to have an opinion.  I admit, she can be frustrating. I didn't like it originally when she asked Aneirin to go back to the Circle, especially after he was nearly killed because they claimed he was maleficarum (which seems false given that he's now Aneirin the healer). To be fair, it seems to be because she knows she doesn't have that long for this world. I have to admit, her asking Aneirin to go back to the Circle was very WTF for me, too, until I replayed it again and understood that Wynne wants the Circle to change. She seems like a Chantry apologist most of the time (and she disapproves if the Warden is happy to be out of the Circle or says he hated the place the moment he saw it), but she tellingly never contests when a mage tells her that it's an oppressive place - she admits that the Warden can use his influence and power to change that over time. It's an admirable goal, but I don't think it's fair to ask someone to give up their life of freedom (like Aneirin, who is part of the Dalish clan, or the Warden of the Circle, who is now free of the Chantry and can raise his or her children without the Chantry stealing them). Given that a mage is only free of the Chantry when they become a Grey Warden (since they have the ability to have and keep their children as well) I don't see how any mage would be eager to return to a Circle that they view as an oppressive place. Give up a position with an order where you finally have rights, simply to go back to being a thrall of the Chantry because there's a slim chance things might change?

[ejoslin]

Bahlgan wrote...

I understand Zevran is bisexual and all, but I do not remember him saying he and Taliesan were lovers. Quite contrary, I thought Zevran was a lover to Rinna, and that was a part to his extreme sorrow for having her killed in the fashion which she was.


Haha, the pan-handler comment I made earlier was in the form of sarcasm, but nevertheless to express how desperate the Crows would be if their numbers thinned out because of a little policy I call a miserable accusation. As far as your call on him using poisons or seduction goes, it would definitely seem an effective method, I even remember his claim on that mage he ended up seducing on his one story. That jack-of-trades though still reminds me more of Leliana than Zevran, even though they both have exercised cautious practices. Would seem out of style for Zevran to attack without stealth first.


Then with all due respect to those who wrote Wynne's story, and to those who do not tolerate her (as opposed to anyone else), that is all their problem and they will have to deal with it the way they see fit; most would probably have her hanged or poisoned by Zevran no less, hah thought they might like that idea. I would encourage a little more acceptance from her onto the Warden. I do not remember where but someone made a swift comback on the forums describing Alistair's refusal to join the Grey Wardens due to sparing Loghain as "poor storywriting." I don't know if that's true, but I would certainly be inclined to make my own damn conan if so. 

It all comes down to this for those who believe in numbers: Everyone serves a unique purpose in the party. If so, I might even make a thread out of this to clarify later on.

Edit: To be clear, I am not stricken by those who refuse to see her as all-knowing and wise, as you described, I am stricken that some people can tolerate all the other party members save Wynne. I truly do not see how she is worse than anyone else. Everyone has their issues.

Zevran and Taliesen were lovers.  You can find this out if Zevran leaves the fight with Taliesen (to get this to happen, he needs to be in a romance and between 26 interested and 70 care).  That Rinna was special was a different part of his story.  Zevran didn't blame Taliesen for Rinna's death, though, so at least Zevran didn't think Taliesen had any motives other than he thought Rinna had betrayed them.

FWIW, I've seen people refer to the writing as terrible when it comes to Alistair leaving the gray wardens.

Edit: Snipped out my original comments.

Modifié par ejoslin, 08 février 2011 - 05:56 .

[Sarah1281]

Edit: To be clear, I am not stricken by those who refuse to see her as all-knowing and wise, as you described, I am stricken that some people can tolerate all the other party members save Wynne. I truly do not see how she is worse than anyone else. Everyone has their issues.

It's not about her being worse than anyone else. There are just some people IRL and in games that you are just not going to like. It doesn't have to mean that they're horrible people, they just irritate you. One thing I can say about Wynne is that she never seems to intend to do harm but dear God does she annoy me. I'm fully capable of liking characters that are morally far worse than Wynne so it's definitely not that.

[IanPolaris]

As many of you know, Wynne is one of my least favorite characters.  There are several resons why this is so:

1.  The bloodmage scene is not deleted from the game.  Every copy of DAO has that scene included.  The only thing that was disabled were the triggers for that scene.  That being so, I consider the scene canon and that scene alone is enough to turn me against Wynne pretty much for good (as I've expounded on elsewhere).

2.  Wynne is the most disloyal NPC in the game.  She attempts (or potentially attempts) to kill the party knowing they are the last hope for Fereldan against the Darkspawn more often than any other character (even Zev).  There are two seperate and independant dialog lines that will trigger Wynne to attack the group when you first meet her (one if you state your purpose is to Annul the Tower and she can't talk you out of it....arguably this is justified self-defense, but the other happens when she finds out that Morrigan is an apostate with a negative opinion about the circle...and that is most certainly NOT justified).  Then she'll attempt to kill you if you openly agree with Cullen just before the Harrowing Chamber (but does nothing and says nothing if you fail to use the Litany of Adralla).  Then she attempts to rat you out to the Templars if a bloodmage (but ONLY if you saved the circle...otherwise she says nothing...the little hypocrit).  Then there is the scene of the Guardian and Urn of Sacred Ashes where she'd rather see Fereldan fall to darkspawn than see a wastbin (as Sten puts it) ruined by a little blood.  By my count, that's at least five times Wynne will try to kill the party...far more than any other NPC.

3.  Wynne is full of unwanted and unasked for advice, and the game fails to give me the dialog lines to call her for being the idiot that she is!  I think that right there is the source of much of the Wynne hate.  For example, she calles Adralla a 'bard' and that the Imperial Chantry outlawed bloodmagic.  Both turn out to be false.  Adralla was a bloodmage that was given political refugee status by the Andrastian Chantry in exchange for her knowledge, and the Imperial Chantry does not outlaw bloodmagic (only mind control magic). Invariably Wynne is full of advice that's usually wrong, and information that is at best skewed and usually wrong as well.

4.  As discussed before with Anerin, Wynne doesn't even seem to realize when she's making her own mistakes and fails to understand how others might react to her.  She is prideful and arrogant and in her own mind always right (when she usually isn't).  She also is openly hypocritical when it comes to responibility and duty (both to the Grey Wardens and the Circle), Abominations (she is one after all), and especially bloodmagic (that disabled scene is a real eye-opener and I recommend that those that haven't seen it should...you can find it on You-Tube).

-Polaris

[antigravitycat]

IanPolaris wrote...
[...] the game fails to give me the dialog lines [...]

This annoys me the most about this game. For all characters, it does not let me reason with them in the way I want. It doesn't let you reason with Wynne, but I found it worse with Morrigan. Choices are very limited there and often it actually does not even matter what dialog option you click, the game will play the same response no matter what.
I like the saying "let the tongue be your sword", but the game makes it impossible and is limited very much. Of course that was intended by the devs, sometimes to direct the storyline etc. But I do not like it like that, sometimes that makes me think it would have been better if they took out the whole dialog carp.

[Ryzaki]

antigravitycat wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
[...] the game fails to give me the dialog lines [...]

This annoys me the most about this game. For all characters, it does not let me reason with them in the way I want. It doesn't let you reason with Wynne, but I found it worse with Morrigan. Choices are very limited there and often it actually does not even matter what dialog option you click, the game will play the same response no matter what.
I like the saying "let the tongue be your sword", but the game makes it impossible and is limited very much. Of course that was intended by the devs, sometimes to direct the storyline etc. But I do not like it like that, sometimes that makes me think it would have been better if they took out the whole dialog carp.

Good lord the bolded. The bolded. I'd kill Morrigan with a two by four because of how stupid the game makes me sound when talking to her. And to me she's just as smug, ignorant and irritating as Wynne can be.

Honestly all of the characters had points where I wanted to punch them in the face. I always found it strange people get so irritated at Wynne when in my view there are plenty of characters that are actually more self-absorbed and ignorant.

[IanPolaris]

Ryzaki wrote...

Honestly all of the characters had points where I wanted to punch them in the face. I always found it strange people get so irritated at Wynne when in my view there are plenty of characters that are actually more self-absorbed and ignorant.

Here's my take on why I resent Wynne more than the others for this.  Yes, all the characters have their flaws.  However, take Morrigan.  Morrigan is who she is.  She doesn't deny that she has a Darwinistic approach to life and never tries to pretend otherwise.  Given that all her dissapprovals are completely understandable.  The same applies to pretty much all the other characters.  Flaws and all, they are who they are.

Not so Wynne.  Wynne preaches responsibility and duty and yet in her own life and actions in the game renegs on both.  She is willing to kill you for being a bloodmage, but only after her own precious circle is saved first.  She hates all abominations, but is one herself.  She claims she made a mistake with Anerin her first apprentice, yet repeats those same mistakes all throughout the game.

I could go on and on and on, but basically Wynne gets under my skin because she is such an obvious and grating hypocrit unlike pretty much all the other chraracters including Morrigan.  Morrigan's bread may be rancid and she may have her issues, but hypocrisy isn't one of them.

-Polaris

[antigravitycat]

IanPolaris wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Honestly all of the characters had points where I wanted to punch them in the face. I always found it strange people get so irritated at Wynne when in my view there are plenty of characters that are actually more self-absorbed and ignorant.

Here's my take on why I resent Wynne more than the others for this.  Yes, all the characters have their flaws.  However, take Morrigan.  Morrigan is who she is.  She doesn't deny that she has a Darwinistic approach to life and never tries to pretend otherwise.  Given that all her dissapprovals are completely understandable.  The same applies to pretty much all the other characters.  Flaws and all, they are who they are.

Not so Wynne.  Wynne preaches responsibility and duty and yet in her own life and actions in the game renegs on both.  She is willing to kill you for being a bloodmage, but only after her own precious circle is saved first.  She hates all abominations, but is one herself.  She claims she made a mistake with Anerin her first apprentice, yet repeats those same mistakes all throughout the game.

I could go on and on and on, but basically Wynne gets under my skin because she is such an obvious and grating hypocrit unlike pretty much all the other chraracters including Morrigan.  Morrigan's bread may be rancid and she may have her issues, but hypocrisy isn't one of them.

-Polaris

I agree very much with Ryzaki here.

The difference I see between Wynne and Morrigan is the intent. While Wynne intends to do good to others and sometimes forgets about her own actions, it is Morrigan who is quite selfish in that regard and clings mostly to this "survival of the fittest" (or more like me before everybody) attitude. What I found funny and actually very hypocritical of Morrigan was to turn to the Warden asking to help her against Flemeth.
Of course doing that serves her own self preservation, but on the other hand contradicts to almost all of her former actions, denying help to others who could not help themselves, but in this case expecting the Warden to have the helpful attitude that she detests so much. That almost makes me want to drag Morrigan before Flemeth and let her claim her - and then slay Flemeth. But well, I still help Morrigan, she is lucky that there are people not acting the way she does actually.

[IanPolaris]

antigravitycat wrote...

I agree very much with Ryzaki here.

The difference I see between Wynne and Morrigan is the intent. While Wynne intends to do good to others and sometimes forgets about her own actions, it is Morrigan who is quite selfish in that regard and clings mostly to this "survival of the fittest" (or more like me before everybody) attitude. What I found funny and actually very hypocritical of Morrigan was to turn to the Warden asking to help her against Flemeth.

I strongly disagree.  It's not hypocritical at all for Morrigan to ask the Warden to help her.  The warden can always say no after all and Morrigan doesn't bother to hide that she's not telling you everything. However, when you talk to Flemeth and choose, "I just want the truth", Flemeth does everything but tell you that Morrigan has told you the essential truth and that Flemeth is indeed out to "eat" Morrigan....and so Flemeth dies.

Using others and getting others to help you by any means necessary is not inconsistant with a Darwinist approach to life.  "What's mine is mine; what's yours is negotiable"  You might not like it, but please don't call it hypocritical.  It's not.

As for Wynne intending to "do good", I guestion this.  I think Wynne wants to always appear to do good, but I really doubt just how beneficent she really is (and I do think she is a pride abomination).

Of course doing that serves her own self preservation, but on the other hand contradicts to almost all of her former actions, denying help to others who could not help themselves, but in this case expecting the Warden to have the helpful attitude that she detests so much. That almost makes me want to drag Morrigan before Flemeth and let her claim her - and then slay Flemeth. But well, I still help Morrigan, she is lucky that there are people not acting the way she does actually.

Morrigan will even admit that there is no force she can apply to make you help her, but if you push Flemeth with any rigor, Flemeth does give the game away.  It's not inconsistant with Morrigan's world view to get others to help her by any means necessary, and if you do so, then more the fool you are.  That may be a sad way to live your life and you may not like it, but that's not hypocrisy on Morigan's part.

That's what I resent about Wynne.  Her open hypocrisy AND the fact she will kill the party at the drop of a hat far more often than any other character.

-Polaris

[Ninotchka]

IanPolaris wrote...

That's what I resent about Wynne.  Her open hypocrisy AND the fact she will kill the party at the drop of a hat far more often than any other character.

-Polaris

Perhaps she is hypocritical, but she most certainly does not attempt to kill your Warden and the party 'at the drop of the hat' without right type of provocation. If you do happen get along with and agree with her at certain critical points in the story, she's never a threat.

I don't know why you should assume that any other player might disagree with Wynne in-game as much as you did.