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Stop being mean to Wynne!


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#201
Ninotchka

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Sarah1281 wrote..
In-game you might never see or hear about it, yes, but I think that even if you can go through the entire game with Wynne never once disagreeing with you about anything then the fact that she'll be so quick to turn on who she openly states she believes to be Ferelden's only hope is still worth acknowledging as it is still a part of her character and one that annoys a lot of people.

Ignoring what happens when Wynne disagrees with you because she never disagrees with you personally is like insisting on ignoring how Alistair reacts to sparing Loghain since you never spare him or Morrigan reacts to turning down the DR since you always do that. 


Very true and very well put. And now I think I understand why people hate her so much. Her platitudes/diatribes can be extremely aggravating but somehow not enough for me to ever totally disagree with her.

I have had her turn on me once when my one of my cats distracted me and didn't really read what I selected in the dialogue just before the Harrrowing Chamber with Cullen. She turned on me then and shocked the begezzus out of me lol (thank god for the earlier quicksave).

Modifié par Ninotchka, 08 février 2011 - 10:59 .


#202
Ninotchka

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LobselVith8 wrote...

I don't understand this - blood magic isn't evil. Why wouldn't your Warden from the Circle make use of it to combat the darkspawn? I can understand if you choose another specialization, but I don't see why you'd think it's "evil," especially when the Chantry labels mages as cursed and makes it seem as though all magic is evil.


You don't have to understand it, that's just how I feel. My thoughts about blood magic within my own game supersede your thoughts/ideas about blood magic.

#203
Sarah1281

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Xilizhra wrote...


I don't understand this - blood magic isn't evil. Why wouldn't your Warden from the Circle make use of it to combat the darkspawn? I can understand if you choose another specialization, but I don't see why you'd think it's "evil," especially when the Chantry labels mages as cursed and makes it seem as though all magic is evil.

Unless you're very, very intimidating, it requires you to sell a little boy's soul to gain blood magic.

Technically, this just makes you actually learning the specialization in the game a morally questionable thing to do. If you learned it from a book like Jowan did or get another blood mage to teach you, is that evil? Once the specialization is already unlocked, your character must have learned it from a book or another blood mage if you choose to give your character that specialization before/in lieu of the demon confrontation.

#204
Bahlgan

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Sarah1281 wrote...

Edit: To be clear, I am not stricken by those who refuse to see her as all-knowing and wise, as you described, I am stricken that some people can tolerate all the other party members save Wynne. I truly do not see how she is worse than anyone else. Everyone has their issues.

It's not about her being worse than anyone else. There are just some people IRL and in games that you are just not going to like. It doesn't have to mean that they're horrible people, they just irritate you. One thing I can say about Wynne is that she never seems to intend to do harm but dear God does she annoy me. I'm fully capable of liking characters that are morally far worse than Wynne so it's definitely not that.


And the funny thing is most of these people who seem to hate Wynne the way I describe are some of the most unreasonable people (who refuse to acknowledge the simplest point anyone supporting her has to make) I have ever known on these forums. A very bad mortar to the "I find Wynne annoying" or "I cannot stand Wynne" group.

It is a relief to me though there are a good number of people on here who can at least be "creatively minded" about it. This new audience is much better than most. 

Edit: Still so many blinkered people though, as Avenger said though.

Some of it is the very same for Sten, Zevran, Loghain, sometimes even Shale.

It's a single player game and if a party member isn't mandatory, there's no reason why someone shouldn't leave Wynne a char stain on the Tower floor if they so choose. I only took Leliana along because of Alistair's cute speech, and both she and Wynne stay in camp permanently, so what's really the point in recruiting them at all? Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. On your first game sure, see all the content there is to see, but after that it's old territory.


Played far too many eastern RPGs, (God I cannot believe I am categorizing them....) to render even a single character in the game as useless to the point of leaving at camp. In my playthroughs I always leave at least one specific use to each character, because that's how I deem each one- a comrade-in-arms.

Modifié par Bahlgan, 09 février 2011 - 04:38 .


#205
LobselVith8

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Ninotchka wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I don't understand this - blood magic isn't evil. Why wouldn't your Warden from the Circle make use of it to combat the darkspawn? I can understand if you choose another specialization, but I don't see why you'd think it's "evil," especially when the Chantry labels mages as cursed and makes it seem as though all magic is evil.


You don't have to understand it, that's just how I feel. My thoughts about blood magic within my own game supersede your thoughts/ideas about blood magic.


Your opinion doesn't supercede the fact that it isn't evil, though. Magic isn't evil - people can misuse it, just like they can misuse any power or weapon at their disposal, but that doesn't make it evil.

#206
Sarah1281

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Things like 'good' and 'evil' are pretty subjective though so it really IS up to people to form an opinion about whether something's good or evil. You really can't objectively decide that something is or is not evil, end of story.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 09 février 2011 - 05:15 .


#207
LobselVith8

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Sarah1281 wrote...

Things like 'good' and 'evil' are pretty subjective though so it really IS up to people to form an opinion about whether something's good or evil. You really can't objectively decide that something is or is not evil, end of story.


It's like saying a gun is evil. Is a gun evil because some people have used them to harm innocents? Are soldiers evil because they use guns? Are Grey Wardens evil because they use blood magic to fight the darkspawn? It's a tool that people use - that's what magic is. Magic can be used for beneficial or harmful purposes, but to say it's good or evil belittles the fact that it's merely how it's used that determines whether it'll be for altruistic or malevolant purposes.

#208
HolyAvenger

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Blood magic's potential for abuse makes it something that needs to kept under strict control. Calling it "evil" is just a means of achieving that. I don't trust it in the hands of anyone.

#209
Sarah1281

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LobselVith8 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Things like 'good' and 'evil' are pretty subjective though so it really IS up to people to form an opinion about whether something's good or evil. You really can't objectively decide that something is or is not evil, end of story.


It's like saying a gun is evil. Is a gun evil because some people have used them to harm innocents? Are soldiers evil because they use guns? Are Grey Wardens evil because they use blood magic to fight the darkspawn? It's a tool that people use - that's what magic is. Magic can be used for beneficial or harmful purposes, but to say it's good or evil belittles the fact that it's merely how it's used that determines whether it'll be for altruistic or malevolant purposes.

I don't think so but you really can't go around telling other people that they can't view all of that as evil.

#210
antigravitycat

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LobselVith8 wrote...Why is that? Because Morrigan never tries to kill you for ridiculous reasons like Wynne does?

Err... It is obvious why Morrigan stays with the Warden and does not turn against him, she reveals that at the end of Origins. So in fact her only reasons are her personal goal. She and/or Flemeth planned the Dark Ritual. That is why she assists the Warden. Not to save Ferelden, not to save innocent people from the Blight or anything else. Turning against the Warden would destroy her own plan. That's everything, she is callous in everything else.What is completely incomprehensible that many people hold more grudge against Wynne.
Especially the scenes in the Circle tower are often wanted to substantiate how "false" Wynne is. Quite contrary I think her reaction is completely understandable. When she turns against the Warden it is because she realizes he is a threat to the people she loves, her family. The Circle has been home to Wynne for many years, it was her family, and there were many people who were dear to her. Many of those have been slaughtered and the Tower is overflowing with the blood of many innocents. She even actually died before to protect the children from being slaughtered. All that caused by malificar, who in this case use Blood Magic, recklessly trying to free themselves from the grasp of the Chantry, at all cost.Then the Warden shows up in the scene, the player of course thinks he is right in everything he does, he has his reasons. But view it from NPC's perspective, from Wynne's view. A person that claims to be a Warden, a dubious figure suddenly he shows up inmidst the greatest devestating situation you have ever seen before. What are his intentions? When the Warden brings Morrigan it is even worse, Morrigan who just scoffs at all the dead people and does not care at all if there are even more innocents slaughtered. Even in the sight of the children she does not care one bit. I think that is outrageous.
The decision with the ashes. I would consider desecrating anybody's remains more than disrespectful. Then, desecrating the remains of the person who is seen as the holiest by the majority of Thedas is not only disrespectful but also unwise. If I was inhabitant of Thedas I would at that point have no doubt that the presumed Warden is not what he claims to be. An imposter or one that is not true to the codex of the Wardens, the unifier against the Blight, protector of the people.

When you really are roleplaying, you get what I mean by this. Of course you can play the whatever you call the "good" or "evil" way. But not forget the perspectives of the other characters in that roleplay. Not all choices the player makes are by itself the right ones, thing is that may players expect that and expect the sourroundings to adapt to his liking. It is understandable that npc characters who do not comply to this will suffer in regard.

#211
Sarah1281

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When she turns against the Warden it is because she realizes he is a threat to the people she loves, her family. The Circle has been home to Wynne for many years, it was her family, and there were many people who were dear to her. Many of those have been slaughtered and the Tower is overflowing with the blood of many innocents. She even actually died before to protect the children from being slaughtered. All that caused by malificar, who in this case use Blood Magic, recklessly trying to free themselves from the grasp of the Chantry, at all cost.Then the Warden shows up in the scene, the player of course thinks he is right in everything he does, he has his reasons. But view it from NPC's perspective, from Wynne's view. A person that claims to be a Warden, a dubious figure suddenly he shows up inmidst the greatest devestating situation you have ever seen before. What are his intentions?

And the fact that blood mages that the Warden goes through a great deal of effort to kill and even more effort to save Irving and thus the Circle caused problems that makes it fine for her to turn on her saviors the minute she sees Greagoir and tattles about the Warden's own blood magic? What does she honestly THINK will happen if she does that? It doesn't matter if the Circle is saved or destroyed if Wynne gets Ferelden's only hope arrested and killed.

#212
antigravitycat

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Sarah1281 wrote...
 And the fact that blood mages that the Warden goes through a great deal of effort to kill and even more effort to save Irving and thus the Circle caused problems that makes it fine for her to turn on her saviors the minute she sees Greagoir and tattles about the Warden's own blood magic? What does she honestly THINK will happen if she does that? It doesn't matter if the Circle is saved or destroyed if Wynne gets Ferelden's only hope arrested and killed.

I do not know. I assume that the bloody mess at the tower is right before her eyes and that influences her very much. The blood mages were part of the Circle, most or maybe all of them were at the tower all the time if I got that right. Nobody knew that would happen but it did all of the sudden. The threat emerged also from within her most familiar environment. It does not matter to her if the Warden is a Warden or whatever, he is a blood mage, using the same power that destroyed everything. She does not know him, nor that he really is a real Warden or that he will be Ferelden's saviour. He could turn out "bad" the next moment, like the other mages that sided with Uldred.

Btw. I don't think Blood Magic is bad by itself. It can serve a good cause, but it seems it almost always leads to something "bad". Maybe it is that it gives the mage too much power, making him even more prone to influence of demons. IIRC the more powerful the mage the more he is in danger.

#213
Sarah1281

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She does not know him, nor that he really is a real Warden or that he will be Ferelden's saviour.

She never seems to express doubt at any moment that the Warden is actually a Warden and, when not trying to sabotage them, will quickly decide that they will save Ferelden mostly by virtue of being a Grey Warden. Wynne's one of the few people in the game who doesn't have the excuse of not knowing that the Warden was going to save everybody since that's an early belief of hers.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 09 février 2011 - 06:17 .


#214
Xilizhra

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I'll say here that Jowan's numerous problems weren't caused by his blood magic. It was the Circle's response that drove him to destroy his phylactery and flee, and later on, his powers become potentially useful if Isolde is sacrificed.

#215
Ryzaki

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Jowan's problems were caused by him being a pathetic fool. Nothing more nothing less.

Oh I'm gonna practice blood magic despite it being forbidden and expect to be unnoticed.

Oh noes! I was noticed! I'm gonna take my girlfriend and lie to her and drag my BFF into my nonsense so I can escape. It doesn't matter that they already have my BFFs blood and can hunt him/her down!

OH noes! I'm caught! I'm gonna use blood magicto escape and leave my BFF out to dry!

Oh noes! I got caught! I'm gonna save my skin by poisioing somoene!

Oh noes! I got caught! I actually feel an inch of shame now and am going to run upstairs and offer to help!

Too little to late *stabs* I used to save the little cretin but now that I see how much he threw others under the bus to save his skin as a result of his own actions. Argh. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 09 février 2011 - 06:28 .


#216
Xilizhra

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He's not stupid; he was able to obtain a substantial amount of power, in secret, in a short amount of time, then realize that the Circle was planning to tranquilize him. His problems seem to be more caused by terrible luck.
Also, if you'd tried to run away with him, I doubt he'd have stopped you. The game just didn't give you an option to do so.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 09 février 2011 - 06:28 .


#217
LobselVith8

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HolyAvenger wrote...

Blood magic's potential for abuse makes it something that needs to kept under strict control. Calling it "evil" is just a means of achieving that. I don't trust it in the hands of anyone.


It's not under strict control - it's used by Grey Wardens, or people suspected of being blood mages (like Morrigan in Witch Hunt, who has a bounty on her during the Orlesian Warden playthrough because they think she's a blood mage) are simply killed.

antigravitycat wrote...
 

LobselVith8 wrote...Why is that? Because Morrigan never tries to kill you for ridiculous reasons like Wynne does?


Err... It is obvious why Morrigan stays with the Warden and does not turn against him, she reveals that at the end of Origins. So in fact her only reasons are her personal goal. She and/or Flemeth planned the Dark Ritual. That is why she assists the Warden. Not to save Ferelden, not to save innocent people from the Blight or anything else. Turning against the Warden would destroy her own plan. That's everything, she is callous in everything else.


She's pragmatic, that's why she always advocates choosing options that enpower the Warden. Also, she wants to save the Warden because she's either a good friend (to the point of being a sister) or she's in love with him. If the relationship is much cooler, it's the sole reason that she wants to preserve one of the remaining mysteries of the world from extinction.

antigravitycat wrote...

What is completely incomprehensible that many people hold more grudge against Wynne.


This may surprise you, but some people take murder attempts a little more seriously than others, especially when the attempted murder makes no sense. Morrigan has an opinion? Wynne tries to kill the Warden. The Warden thinks Cullen is right? Warden has to die, but she won't do anything if Greagoir decides that the Circle needs to be culled. The ashes are ruined? Then let's murder the last hope for Ferelden because the Urn is no more. Better that everyone in Ferelden die at the hands of the darkspawn because the Urn is gone instead of focusing on the goal of stopping the Blight.

antigravitycat wrote...

Especially the scenes in the Circle tower are often wanted to substantiate how "false" Wynne is. Quite contrary I think her reaction is completely understandable. When she turns against the Warden it is because she realizes he is a threat to the people she loves, her family. The Circle has been home to Wynne for many years, it was her family, and there were many people who were dear to her. Many of those have been slaughtered and the Tower is overflowing with the blood of many innocents. She even actually died before to protect the children from being slaughtered.


Yet she has no problem disregarding the safety and lives of the children because Morrigan voiced her opinion. It's also "false" of Wynne to disapprove if the Warden doesn't like the Circle when she later agrees with the Warden (of the Circle of Ferelden) that it's an oppressive place.
 

antigravitycat wrote...

All that caused by malificar, who in this case use Blood Magic, recklessly trying to free themselves from the grasp of the Chantry, at all cost.


Wrong. Uldred used demonology, not blood magic, and the oppressed will always seek to free themselves. After all, Andraste didn't write the Imperium a strongly worded letter when she wanted to free her people. Why should the mages?

antigravitycat wrote...

Then the Warden shows up in the scene, the player of course thinks he is right in everything he does, he has his reasons. But view it from NPC's perspective, from Wynne's view. A person that claims to be a Warden, a dubious figure suddenly he shows up inmidst the greatest devestating situation you have ever seen before. What are his intentions? When the Warden brings Morrigan it is even worse, Morrigan who just scoffs at all the dead people and does not care at all if there are even more innocents slaughtered. Even in the sight of the children she does not care one bit. I think that is outrageous.


You mean, the Warden dared to agree with Morrigan's opinion of the Circle? Of course he should he killed! Opinions are clearly evil. Image IPB

antigravitycat wrote...

The decision with the ashes. I would consider desecrating anybody's remains more than disrespectful. Then, desecrating the remains of the person who is seen as the holiest by the majority of Thedas is not only disrespectful but also unwise. If I was inhabitant of Thedas I would at that point have no doubt that the presumed Warden is not what he claims to be. An imposter or one that is not true to the codex of the Wardens, the unifier against the Blight, protector of the people.


So better to let everyone in Ferelden die at the hands of the darkspawn because of the loss of some lyrium enchanced Urn?

antigravitycat wrote...

When you really are roleplaying, you get what I mean by this. Of course you can play the whatever you call the "good" or "evil" way. But not forget the perspectives of the other characters in that roleplay. Not all choices the player makes are by itself the right ones, thing is that may players expect that and expect the sourroundings to adapt to his liking. It is understandable that npc characters who do not comply to this will suffer in regard.


I think there are some intriguing decisions that force the player to decide how they want to leave the world and what sort of person they are - the decision with the Anvil and the choice to spare the Architect come to mind. The golems beat back the first Archdemon Dumat and gave the dwarven kingdoms a hundred years of peace, while the Architect could endanger women and humanity as a whole because of his desire to provide darkspawn with intelligence. It's a matter of perspective, of course, what the correct decision is.

#218
Ryzaki

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Xilizhra wrote...

He's not stupid; he was able to obtain a substantial amount of power, in secret, in a short amount of time, then realize that the Circle was planning to tranquilize him. His problems seem to be more caused by terrible luck.
Also, if you'd tried to run away with him, I doubt he'd have stopped you. The game just didn't give you an option to do so.


What powers? Sure we get that sequence with the blood magic but the guy still got caught. And the templars couldn't even use his blood against him. His problems are because he's a stupid little twit.

Of course he wouldn't have stopped you. He certainly doesn't make an offer though! He's fast to offer it to his little girlfriend but the person who actually made it possible? Nah let's ignore that one. :mellow: He lies to you and pretends "Oh I'm an innocent wibble victim." when the fool was actually using blood magic and brought his fate on himself!

Which would be fine if he had just owned up to his actions instead of running and throwing others under the bus because of his actions.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 09 février 2011 - 06:31 .


#219
Xilizhra

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He was caught by Loghain, not the templars; those, he managed to give the slip to, and likely he stumbled into one of Loghain's war parties.

It is a pity about him lying; I would have gotten him out of the Circle even if he had told me the truth. Maybe even especially then.

#220
Ryzaki

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Xilizhra wrote...

He was caught by Loghain, not the templars; those, he managed to give the slip to, and likely he stumbled into one of Loghain's war parties.
It is a pity about him lying; I would have gotten him out of the Circle even if he had told me the truth. Maybe even especially then.


I could've sworn the templars caught him but Loghain demanded he be given to him.

I have to replay the landsmeet *sighs*

Me I'd have left him to hang himself. At least I can still murder knife him. <_<

#221
Xilizhra

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It's a pity about the bloodlust, I must say.

#222
Exile Isan

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Are we talking about Jowan? He was captured by the Templars and Loghain interfered.

#223
USArmyParatrooper

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On the subject of Blood Magic, (I) personally do not consider it evil. I happen to disagree with Wynne on that subject, and I also disagree with her about the Circle.



BUT, to me it seems crystal clear that Wynne's heart is in the right place and she just wants to do good. Her fear and disdain for Blood Magic is misguided, but understandable. I also think the writers intentionally left that subject in a gray area, so the players can make up their own mind whether or not magic is truly evil.



For (ME) and my role playing purposes it is not. But then again, my perception and imagination could be shaped by the fact that I really like Blood Wound and Blood Control.



I tend to agree with those who have said you're really reaching if you say Wynnes character flaws are worse than the other players. Sten murdered an entire family, including children. There's no telling how many innocents died at Zev's hands. Morrigan loses approval every time you do something good and she has an ulterior motive, the dark ritual. Laliana has blood on her hands from her past, but at least she's trying to change her ways.



Seriously, Wynne is the worst? "OMG she turns on you so easy" or "OMG she's a preachy hypocrit"



Let me ask you this. List in order, which of the companions would you want watching your kids? For me it would go Wynne first, then Alistair, then Laliana... and the rest I would just stay at home.

#224
Xilizhra

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What does watching kids have to do with fighting a Blight? In that area, judging by Wynne's experience, she's obviously superior, but... which of your companions would be best at soccer? That's equally relevant.

#225
Ryzaki

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Xilizhra wrote...

It's a pity about the bloodlust, I must say.


I dislike cowards.

As for ignornance and preachieness I find Morrigan does that as much as Wynne. Just they both go about it in different ways and Morrigan needs you too much to attack or leave you unless you force her hand. (That and Morrigan probably realizes that you could do some serious damage to her if not outright kill her).

Modifié par Ryzaki, 09 février 2011 - 06:46 .