99 réponses à ce sujet

[jlb524]

Why do Renegade players even care if they are persecuted anyway?! They're Renegades!



They should be too badass for such concerns.



I also get the joke.

[Dean_the_Young]

Moiaussi wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Here's the question I have as to NPC's: why are the returning NPC's that reflect most the story-mission choices (as opposed to the side-mission choices) from ME1 only the ones you can kill? In some cases it's perfectly relevant (Rana's reappearance on Grunt's Loyalty Mission), but in most cases there's no reason why the character you could kill has to be the one who comes back. It's not a matter of 'new and better' characters, but why is there only only one character in the first place? If the point of story-mission choice return characters is coherency, why is it limited to Paragon lines?

Likely related to VA contracts... New NPCs would mean new contracts.

Except they brought in return voice actors for old NPC's regardless. It's a weakness regardless.

Other than that, which renegade choice regarding NPC's don't involve killing them? The consort returns if you helped her in ME1.... so there is one that isn't one you can kill.... who else though?

Most of them. The NPC's in which the only Renegade option is to kill them are the minority in ME1, not the majority: you can have non-lethal Renegade resolutions with most side missions.

[CroGamer002]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

To help the colonists.

Being infected by Thorian spores isn't a requirement for caring for the colonists, or for a ticket to Illium.

Point taken.

Say it with me now: "Business Trip."

These things happen. It's an amazing universe, I know, to think that executives might travel around in the interest of their business, and not be locked to a desk and hardline telephone for all their business.

Then Paragon's should get him too.
Still you can give him evidence without Gianna getting killed.
Also you can go to Benezia without giving anyone evidence.

Modifié par Mesina2, 05 février 2011 - 08:35 .

[AdmiralCheez]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

What do the reapers have to do with it?

Just saying, they're there for flavor, not plot relevance.

The point is continuity, not how it matters for the final battle. Renegades are just as entitled to continuity nods as the Paragons.

You still got plenty of continuity as a renegade.  Your actions in the previous games are referenced just as much.

Helena Blake and Conrad are actually great examples of how character reoccurance should work: there's a paragon reoccurance (bugged as it is with Conrad, Helena is a charity worker), a Renegade reoccurance (Conrad ME2, Helena the Aria-lieutenant), and a non-reappearance (getting Conrad or Helena killed is possible by both Paragon and Renegade opportunities). Both characters avoid a 'you must be a Paragon OR kill them" setup which affects most the story-line reoccuring characters (Rachni Ambassador, Giana, Shiala, Thana).

This is a good idea.  However, keep in mind that all the "paragon or kill" characters you mentioned occured in the core missions, and therefore are more likely to get a continuity nod.  Also, you can still be a renegade and help Giana--you just intimidate Lorik into testifying instead, or get the garage pass from him.  Telling Anoleis about Giana is only one of four outcomes (fourth is telling Anoleis about Olpold's package), while Giana survives in the other three.

A little Lorik in ME2 would have been nice, BTW.

What does seeing it in person have to do with anything? The Ambassador asari wasn't on Noveria herself: she herself is contrived, but that doesn't make it bad. Random empty suit thanking you on behalf of Krogan/the Executive Board for stopping a galactic calamity is no more contrived than random empty head being saved by Rachni from space pirates and being sent to thank you for saving them.

Keep in mind that the krogans didn't know about it and that the executive board would have preferred to never talk about it.

The Rachni Queen's ambassador got a feather-bed tongue-bath treatment. If the Rachni don't come out as a good faction, I'll be the first to applaud (and certainly not be heard over the screams of anger and protests).

The fact that it was a decision in the PS3 comic demonstrates that it will most likely be a plot point in ME3.  I do not expect it to be any more game-changing than the council or Wrex, however.

[Ryzaki]

You can get Gianna's cameo (and she even has different dialogue) just for helping Lorik. You're not forced to help her.

[Moiaussi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Except they brought in return voice actors for old NPC's regardless. It's a weakness regardless.

Unless they were contracted for X lines over the course of the trilogy. They knew they were doing a trilogy, so contracts that ensure VA availability are sensible. You don't know the contracts. New people wouldn't be covered under existing contracts. Return VA's might be.
 

Most of them. The NPC's in which the only Renegade option is to kill them are the minority in ME1, not the majority: you can have non-lethal Renegade resolutions with most side missions.

Examples? Of any that would be important enough to matter?

[Dean_the_Young]

Mesina2 wrote...

Then Paragon's should get him too.

Agreed, but the interest of prioritizing might dictate otherwise. My solution would be the prioritize who returns/what mood by how you handled the resolution of the Garage Pass quest.

Still you can give him evidence without Gianna getting killed.
Also you can go to Benezia without giving anyone evidence.

If you didn't help Gianna, I believe she convicts him on her own regardless. (Or, at least, no reason she can't return with a similar 'you didn't help me attitude'.)


With two possible returnees (Lorik and Giana), the altered setup for the Noveria return would best reflect the four possible ways of getting a garage pass: 

1. Giving Anoleus the smuggling info. In this case, Giana eventually catches Anoleus, no thanks to you, and Lorik never regains his status. Giana returns, mildly hostile towards the Spectre/person who didn't help her. (In ME2, the 'didn't help her' return.)

Neither Paragon or Renegade.

2. Returning Lorik's evidence to Lorik: Lorik regains status, Giana catches Anoleus no thanks to you. Lorik returns, mildly pleased with you, and as the administrator of Noveria visiting Illium on a business trip, part of which he takes the opportunity to ask for Shepard to help.

As convincing Lorik to testify requires a persuasion check, and this is the low-persuasion 'default', this option is neither Paragon or Renegade.

3. Convincing Lorik to testify: Lorik regains status, but Giana catches Anoleus all thanks to you. Giana returns, undercover again as per ME2, and is especially friendly..

The especially Paragon solution.

4. Anoleus and Giana kill eachother: Lorik ascends meteorically, all thanks to you, as he recovers his evidence without having to testify, steps into the power vacuume, and exposes Anoleus's misdeeds. Lorik returns, even more important/secured, and especially friendly with you.

The especially Renegade solution.

[Dean_the_Young]

Moiaussi wrote...

Most of them. The NPC's in which the only Renegade option is to kill them are the minority in ME1, not the majority: you can have non-lethal Renegade resolutions with most side missions.

Examples? Of any that would be important enough to matter?

Of the ones you have to kill as a Renegade, due to a lack of neutral or other Renegade resolutions? That's the easier list, and they're mainly storyline choices.

Shiala, the Rachni Queen, and Rana are the only ME1 NPC's I can think of in which the only Renegade option is to kill them, as opposed to some other resolution. The Council, sort of, but killing them is also the neutral option. Killing Fist isn't dependant just on Renegade (doing it yourself), but also if you bring Wrex along, which is neither Paragon or Renegade.

Renegade Shepard has the opportunity to shoot more people, but doesn't have to. In some side missions, the Paragon default is what leads to conflict and death: trying to arrest the arms dealer, or arresting Helena Blake.

(Virmire survivor being a whole different exception.)

[Dean_the_Young]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

What do the reapers have to do with it?

Just saying, they're there for flavor, not plot relevance.

Exactly my point.

The point is continuity, not how it matters for the final battle. Renegades are just as entitled to continuity nods as the Paragons.

You still got plenty of continuity as a renegade.  Your actions in the previous games are referenced just as much.

Except they aren't referenced as much, due to a number of fewer continuity come-back characters. An absence of a nod isn't a nod itself, for the same reason that non-referenced side quests aren't simply a clever nod to the players who accomplished them.

It really doesn't help that three of the biggest offenders are in the same five minute/fifty yard interval of Illijm. That is an especially notable and eggregious hole.

This is a good idea.  However, keep in mind that all the "paragon or kill" characters you mentioned occured in the core missions, and therefore are more likely to get a continuity nod.  Also, you can still be a renegade and help Giana--you just intimidate Lorik into testifying instead, or get the garage pass from him.  Telling Anoleis about Giana is only one of four outcomes (fourth is telling Anoleis about Olpold's package), while Giana survives in the other three.

Indeed, but the issue I and a number of other people have is that the core mission continuity nods are dependant on a Paragon choice when no such dependence is necessary as a part of the story.

Surviving characters are good, even preferable, nods to the choice of sparing them, but in their death there isn't a necessity to lose the continuity nod simply because you lost the character: there is the Elizabeth to the Shiala, the Lorik to the Giana. If they can create a nameless NPC to nod back to saving the Rachni Queen, they can create a nameless NPC to nod back to killing her.

The primary NPC who actually has an excuse for not having a stand-in is Rana, because there is no always-surviving Virmire NPC.

Keep in mind that the krogans didn't know about it and that the executive board would have preferred to never talk about it.

It is known, publicly. The counter news broadcast to the Rachni surviving (Rachni ship sighting) is a news report about the the Rachni being killed on Noveria.

The fact that it was a decision in the PS3 comic demonstrates that it will most likely be a plot point in ME3.  I do not expect it to be any more game-changing than the council or Wrex, however.

Of course it's a significant plot point. But every indication upto now is that saving the Rachni Queen will be a massive boon in ME3. Not a mistake.

[Aeowyn]

Eh, renegades and renegons need to defend their moral choices a lot more than paragons and paragades I've noticed.

[Inquisitor Recon]

It's about time some paragon choices don't turn out as well as intended. I'ts overdue in fact.

[Dean_the_Young]

Have you?



I've always felt the same about those who spare the Rachni, or save the Council, or destroy the Collector Base, or save the Genophage cure data.

[AkiKishi]

The Krogan will at some point overcome the genophage even if it's just through evolution. The collector base, unless I can keep it nobody is having it. We already saw how useful saving the council was, well you can threaten that guy on Thanes mission for an easy shortcut. And get a discount without needing to use charm..

If anything the ramifications of not saving the council should be far more severe. Thats like allowing a countries leaders to be killed when you could have done something about it. Never goes down well that. As long as they are popular leaders anyway.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 05 février 2011 - 09:37 .

[Dean_the_Young]

I said I felt the same way. I wasn't asking anyone to rationalize their immorality give their reasons.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 05 février 2011 - 09:40 .

[Aeowyn]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Have you?

I've always felt the same about those who spare the Rachni, or save the Council, or destroy the Collector Base, or save the Genophage cure data.

I've been called a monster for some of the choices I made in the game. But I don't know, maybe it's just something I see?

[Inquisitor Recon]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
I said I felt the same way. I wasn't asking anyone to rationalize their immorality give their reasons.

Immorality? So not automatically trusting every person/bug/thing that promises to "change it's ways" is a horrible thing?

[Dean_the_Young]

ReconTeam wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
I said I felt the same way. I wasn't asking anyone to rationalize their immorality give their reasons.

Immorality? So not automatically trusting every person/bug/thing that promises to "change it's ways" is a horrible thing?

...I think you missed the joke. Not only that, but that the joke wasn't at the Renegade expense.

Now, it was rather dry, but who uses strike text for being serious?

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 05 février 2011 - 09:47 .

[AkiKishi]

ReconTeam wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
I said I felt the same way. I wasn't asking anyone to rationalize their immorality give their reasons.

Immorality? So not automatically trusting every person/bug/thing that promises to "change it's ways" is a horrible thing?

It's the safe bet, fear induced response. Wiping out an entire speices in no small thing. They even kept a vial of smallpox rather than destroy it utterly and thats really never going to turn into an ally now is it ? 

The Rachni Queen is a twofold dilema.

1. You are wiping out a speices.
2. You are murdering a creature . it's not like if it was a stand up fight followed by a choice it's out and out murder.

[didymos1120]

ReconTeam wrote...

Immorality? So not automatically trusting every person/bug/thing that promises to "change it's ways" is a horrible thing?

The Queen had no "ways".  The Queen was an egg until very recently, and didn't participate in the Rachni Wars at all, and the behavior of the other rachni on Noveria was not of her doing. 

[Dean_the_Young]

BobSmith101 wrote...

ReconTeam wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
I said I felt the same way. I wasn't asking anyone to rationalize their immorality give their reasons.

Immorality? So not automatically trusting every person/bug/thing that promises to "change it's ways" is a horrible thing?

It's the safe bet, fear induced response. Wiping out an entire speices in no small thing. They even kept a vial of smallpox rather than destroy it utterly and thats really never going to turn into an ally now is it ?

In the sense that they keep it in order to research counters to it if it reappears, and not out of sentimental morality? Yes. It will do just that.

Same reason they keep anthrax. Not love, utility.

1. You are wiping out a speices.

2. You are murdering a creature . it's not like if it was a stand up fight followed by a choice it's out and out murder.

So, if you set it out so it could fight back, it'd be alright?

And make up your mind: are you killing an individual or a race? If you're comitting mass genocide be killing a fertile female, you're comitting mass genocide of the future unborn generations every time you kill any fertile female.

[AkiKishi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

So, if you set it out so it could fight back, it'd be alright?

And make up your mind: are you killing an individual or a race? If you're comitting mass genocide be killing a fertile female, you're comitting mass genocide of the future unborn generations every time you kill any fertile female.

If it fought back then I'd be less likely to believe it anyway. But you are not dooming a race to extinction, bit of a difference there. Thats like saying because my GF is on the pill we have killed 100's of kids maybe even thousands

[Ryzaki]

For every paragon choice that backfires I want the same for a renegade decision (and vice versa).



At least then some of the QQing might stop.

[Inquisitor Recon]

If it's smart enough to talk it is smart enough to lie.

[Dean_the_Young]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

So, if you set it out so it could fight back, it'd be alright?

And make up your mind: are you killing an individual or a race? If you're comitting mass genocide be killing a fertile female, you're comitting mass genocide of the future unborn generations every time you kill any fertile female.

If it fought back then I'd be less likely to believe it anyway. But you are not dooming a race to extinction, bit of a difference there. Thats like saying because my GF is on the pill we have killed 100's of kids maybe even thousands

Indeed you have, going by the mass-genocide-of-a-species argument. Not only the individual you kill, but all the rest that could have been.

[Dean_the_Young]

Ryzaki wrote...

For every paragon choice that backfires I want the same for a renegade decision (and vice versa).

At least then some of the QQing might stop.

I'm fairly sure that's what we're all asking for. Balance.

For every Renegade that backfires, a Paragon that backfires.

For every Renegade that doesn't work out for the best, and equivalent Paragon that doesn't work out for the best.


There should be no option that sometimes works out, sometimes doesn't, and one that always works out for the best.