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[Lord Zeuss]

N7Infernox wrote...

Staying on topic...

Anyways, this is an amazing thread Lord Zeuss! It'd be awesome if you could make one for the krogan too- with banners and everything.

Banners would be simple enough, heck, 'We Are Geth' is just begging to be made. There's also 'We Are Terminus', 'We Are Citadel', a slew of others. Photomanips aren't as simple, but I'll let some ideas germinate.

[ACC3SS]

Lord Zeuss wrote...
We Humans Are Capable Of Greatness ~ Carl Sagan

This is the funniest thing I've seen all week.
You're using a Sagan quote to promote humanity-centric philosphy!

Carl Sagan was a advocate and board member of SETI, a group dedicated to the search for alien life. Its headquarters are located at the Carl Sagan Center for the Study of Life in the Universe, nonetheless! He designed the Pioneer plaques, humanity's first attempt to converse with an alien race we knew nothing about.

Sagan was also a strong supporter of humanism. If you think that's a point for the "Humanity First" dummies, think again.

Humanism is set of ethics or ideas about how people should live and act. People who hold this set of ethics are called "Humanists".

Any humanist foolish to think that intelligent alien life falls outside of their purview truly doesn't deserve to call themselves one. In fact, I'd imagine the discovery of alien life would prompt humanists to immediately change their title. Perhaps "beingism"? 

Now I'll leave this thread be. You're entitled to your opinions. I strongly urge you to find another spokesperson, however. You seem to have chosen one that spent his life fighting tooth-and-nail against your cause.

Modifié par ACC3SS, 06 février 2011 - 11:17 .

[Sylvianus]

I think mostly it is a deep racism against humans, simply because players are human. Some do not even realize that their behavior towards humans in the game may seem the same prejudices that they denounce. It's funny.

The reactions are always the same. Alien is a patriot, that's cool. A man is a patriot, is a racist. Or a Turian made a negative comment on humans, it's funny, a human makes a joke about an alien is a villain.

Each species defends its interests, it is normal, the human is not normal.

Humans can not really do anything to win without being accused of nationalist or human-centric ... T__T

There's what's difficult to understand that being a patriot is to promote the interests of its kind. All politicians at the head of government aliens are patriots. T__T

Especially Turian, they are worse than humans. They are proud of their empire and do everything to keep their military supremacy. So far they refuse to cooperate with other species? Of course not.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 06 février 2011 - 10:07 .

[Sylvianus]

doble post

Modifié par Sylvianus, 06 février 2011 - 10:09 .

[Xilizhra]

The reactions are always the same. Alien is a patriot, that's cool. A man is a patriot, is a racist. Or a Turian made a negative comment on humans, it's funny, a human makes a joke about an alien is a villain.

Actually, nonhumans who expound upon the virtues of their own species (as opposed to being specifically suspicious of humanity) are rare in ME, and it's never portrayed positively (Erinya, the Weyrloc clanspeaker, Balak, et al).

[Batlass8]

Maybe you should consider adding the definition of "patriotism" to the OP, Zeuss. It's "love for or devotion to one's country."



Similarly, a "patriot" is "one who loves his or her country and supports its authority and interests." It doesn't mean a patriot hates those that aren't citizens of the same country. Kelly's a good example of this (whether you're a fan or not). She's knows enough to understand that her impulse to promote humanity's interest doesn't mean she has to hate other species.

[Sylvianus]

Let's be honest. Everything's cool alien. All that is human is boring. Whenever you can hit on humanity you do, that's all.

You denounce patriotism for humans? What do you say Wrex. It's pure patriotism. The concern for his people. Wrex is a patriot. Grunt wants to promote the interests of Krogan in the galaxy.

Is he a racist for hating Salarian for what they did?

Are they racist? Nationalists? Are they hateful?

Tali is it a nationalist who is so sensitive when it comes to his people?

Of course not, because it is an alien. It's different. It's beautiful, touching.

A human instead of Tali, and presto it's a racist. You do not even realize.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 06 février 2011 - 10:44 .

[Xilizhra]

You denounce patriotism for humans? What do you say Wrex. It's pure patriotism. The concern for his people. Wrex is a patriot. Grunt wants to promote the interests of Krogan in the galaxy.

Wrex: I'm very cautious. His path is likely better for the krogan, but I don't know how it'll turn out for the rest of the galaxy. As for Grunt... really, he doesn't seem to care that much about krogan affairs.

Also, if he hates every salarian for the actions of the STG once or twice, then yes, he's speciesist.

Tali is it a nationalist who is so sensitive when it comes to his people?

His people? Wat? Did you mean Talid? He's also supposed to be a bad guy...

But if it is Tali, then yes, I oppose her own nationalism the instant it clashes with other species' interests, most notably the geth.

[jlb524]

Batlass8 wrote...

Similarly, a "patriot" is "one who loves his or her country and supports its authority and interests."

This often clashes with the interests of others though...then what? 

Batlass8 wrote...

It doesn't mean a patriot hates those that aren't citizens of the same country.

Of course not....but what happens when others don't support your 'authority and interests'?

[Sylvianus]

Yes I was talking about Tali. =)
It is not the only, all Quarians are nationalists in M2. And it never bothered anyone.

Instead, Grunt is very concerned about his people, once in his clan.

[Chignon]

jlb524 wrote...

Batlass8 wrote...

Similarly, a "patriot" is "one who loves his or her country and supports its authority and interests."

This often clashes with the interests of others though...then what? 

Then what what? The person will still be a patriot and the person who disagrees is not. It is similiar to any other opinion people can disagree on; you move on and accept it.

Of course not....but what happens when others don't support your 'authority and interests'?

See above.

[Batlass8]

jlb524 wrote...

Batlass8 wrote...

Similarly, a "patriot" is "one who loves his or her country and supports its authority and interests."

This often clashes with the interests of others though...then what? 

In all honesty, I hesitated to post the definition of patriot since I wasn't sure others would interpret "authority" the same way I did.  I took "authority" to mean "legitimately governing political body."  So, as a human in the Mass Effect universe, a human patriot would support the Alliance's right to rule, not [necessarily] the idea that every other species should make humanity its king.

As for clashes with the interests of other groups...that's to be expected!  But just as patriotism doesn't equate to kowtowing to others, it doesn't equate to steamrolling them either.  When you're in conflict, you seek a diplomatic solution, the same as individual governments IRL do (or should do, but that's another question).  Wanting the best for your country doesn't mean you have to adopt a zero-sum attitude towards international relations.  Patriots, like supporters of any cause, group, or what have you, can be overly zealous.  I would argue that that's not the default setting, however.

Edited for clarity

Modifié par Batlass8, 06 février 2011 - 11:23 .

[Flamewielder]

The Reapers have reached Earth, and are slaughtering humans by the millions. I don't think Humanity is going to exit ME3 in a particularly prominent position... which makes perfect metagaming sense from an IP owner point of view. I mean, would any future ME game be of any interest if there wasn't some conflict left in the universe?

As a human, and an ex-alliance military, Shepard will naturally do his/her best to stop the Reapers... but will other species rush to our rescue? Will they rush to Earth's defense like the Alliance did for the Citadel? Or will the Council advocate patience and organize a more coordinated attack while the Reapers are busy with us? Will we be the Council's Dog, getting mauled keeping the Reaper's Bear busy while the Council species ready their gun?

Renegade Shepard (and Cerberus) may be vindicated in the end, using salvaged Reaper tech to stop the Reapers (making TIM an unsung hero)... or perhaps Paragon Shepard will shame the Council species (and perhaps others) into quick and decisive action.

Regardless of wether you're paragon or renegade, you are still human. You can fight for your own survival, or fight for everyone's... starting with your own species.

Modifié par Flamewielder, 06 février 2011 - 11:40 .

[ACC3SS]

Brodyaha wrote...
I believe humanism can apply to patriotism and support for humanity.  Just because you support humanity doesn't mean you don't support other causes.

A patriot acts first in the interest of his fellow countrymen. They shows preference in hopes of benefiting their kin.
A humanist treats all people equally and without preference. They rely solely on reasoning and ethics.

Therefor, being a patriot is being a poor humanist.

Modifié par ACC3SS, 06 février 2011 - 11:41 .

[Lord Zeuss]

Here's another batch of sig banners:





 

[Cru Hunter]

Human, what you choose to call us is irrelevant. Your destruction is inevitable. All you are is flesh joined with marrow, a sack with a brain. We are timeless, indestructible, and we will burn all your civilization has built, to ashes.



Good picture though

[Xilizhra]

Regardless of wether you're paragon or renegade, you are still human. You can fight for your own survival, or fight for everyone's... starting with your own species.

If I'm starting with my own species, it's due to location, not preference. Not that I particularly dislike humanity (although if I had to save only one species, it'd be asari), but... I'm a Spectre. My duty is to the galaxy.

[Lord Zeuss]

@ACC3SS: Please read this, verbatim from the OP:

We will stand together against the coming Reaper invasion, for the good of ourselves, the good of humanity, and ultimately the good of an entire galaxy of free, sentient beings.

That is what I said.

[Xilizhra]

And the phrasing of that, unfortunately, makes it sound like the good of the entire galaxy is just a pleasant side effect when you only actually care about humanity.

[Flamewielder]

ACC3SS wrote...

Brodyaha wrote...
I believe humanism can apply to patriotism and support for humanity.  Just because you support humanity doesn't mean you don't support other causes.

A patriot acts first in the interest of his fellow countrymen. They shows preference in hopes of benefiting their kin.
A humanist treats all people equally and without preference. They rely solely on reasoning and ethics.
Therefore, being a patriot is being a poor humanist.

Carl Sagan was also a scientist who belived in the scientific basis of inter-human relations based on games theory. He used mathematics to demonstrate that in our interaction, one good turn deserves another, while wrong turns should be reciprocated. No "presenting the other cheek"...

Now evolution is all about survival of the fittest, and that is science too. Some species do outstandingly well, others not so well. Some have/will become extinct (like humans, if they don't get their **** together). Humanity is competing with other species for a relatively small number of garden worlds offering resources they all need to thrive. They can cooperate and share or compete. Sagan says, offer coop first, compete if coop is turned down.

It's realistic, pragmatic, and backed by mathematics. If other species show goodwill, great, let the paragons sort it out; if they only look out for number one, fine, let the renegades work them over... 

[Chignon]

Xilizhra wrote...

And the phrasing of that, unfortunately, makes it sound like the good of the entire galaxy is just a pleasant side effect when you only actually care about humanity.

I think you may be interpreting a bit too much of your own perception into it, Xilizhra.

Modifié par Chignon, 07 février 2011 - 12:07 .

[Batlass8]

Xilizhra wrote...

And the phrasing of that, unfortunately, makes it sound like the good of the entire galaxy is just a pleasant side effect when you only actually care about humanity.

I have to disagree with you there.  Maybe you're seeing some level of interpretation that I've missed, but to me it sounds like those who adopt the philosophy presented in the OP believe that their end goal is for their actions to ultimately have a beneficial effect on the entire galaxy.