77 réponses à ce sujet

[shatteredstar56]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

shatteredstar56 wrote...

I punish her every time by killing Connor, death is too much of a blessing.

Huh. Well, I guess it sucks to be Connor; he was just trying to save his dad.

Isolde replaces him, and dies in childbirth. 
Connor is collateral damage, despite that sounding cruel.  He would have never probably summoned the demon,  had Isolde grown a pair and sent him away to magic school. It's her fault that he had to die, the way I see it.

[Morwen Eledhwen]

Adding my 2 cents to all the Vaughn haters: in my first playthrough (DC) I don't recall meeting him in Howe's dungeons, so I either must have missed him or perhaps *hangs head* let him go; my next playthrough was as a CE so he was minus a head by the time I got to Howe's estate; in the playthrough after that, I desperately wanted an RP excuse for my Mage to kill him but I couldn't legitimately find one that didn't involve prior knowledge from my CE playthrough. However, I kept my Mage talking to him long enough for her to realize what a jerk he was and leave him in his cell.

[mander83]

 I was just thinking about this last night while in Redcliffe.

My last playthrough was with an elf mage who helped Jowan as much as possible and had no problems with blood magic. This playthrough is a human noble who doesn't tolerate blood magic at all.

I personally like Jowan (even if he's a bit daft sometimes) but my Warden just wouldn't tolerate someone like him. She also won't resort to sacrificing Isolde and thinks going to the Circle will take way too much time. So, she killed Connor.

I'd never done that before. It was awful.

There are some that are more difficult- Vaughn is one of them. The first origin I ever did was a female city elf...so I have a special hatred for him. The Landsmeet is important though. So, even thinking about it now, I don't know what the decision will be.

[Morwen Eledhwen]

mander83 wrote...

There are some that are more difficult- Vaughn is one of them. The first origin I ever did was a female city elf...so I have a special hatred for him. The Landsmeet is important though. So, even thinking about it now, I don't know what the decision will be.

But you don't need to release Vaughn to be successful at the Landsmeet, so that shouldn't be a factor.

[Carmen_Willow]

All I can say is that it is very hard to take Sten to Haven these days! :innocent:

[Morwen Eledhwen]

Carmen_Willow wrote...

All I can say is that it is very hard to take Sten to Haven these days! :innocent:

Hahaha. . .I hesitated to do that as well, but his approval rating of my PC in my 3rd playthrough was pretty high so I risked it. If you take him all the way to the top of the mountain, he has some pretty hilarious comments.

[Shinobu]

ejoslin wrote...

Hah, to get back to the original question...

It took me a few playthroughs to forgive Alistair for dumping my city elf then refusing to let her die (I cried when he dumped my city elf -- I was crushed). I've never been able to romance him all the way through again, but at least I don't take the really mean choices with him and laugh my head off.

Oh, my condolences -- I hate that ending! It's so... aarrgh! I played it just to experience the horror and still found it scarring, even though I knew what was going to happen. Giving the Warden no options on the top of Fort Drakon was a really brilliant (EVIL) move by Bioware.

I think I was able to get over the dumping because I rigged my first playthrough for the CE to ride off into the sunset with him. If I had walked into the breakup blind (and it was on track to be spectacularly bad since he was unhardened and the Warden pretty much spared everyone who asked for it) I'm not sure I would have gotten over it. As it is, my non-HNFs will probably still romance him but I have some niggling doubts. Oddly, I think the whole breakup made me less sympathetic to F!Cousland (cannot get into playing her), though I'm getting over it now that I've been lurking on the Alistair thread and heard about broken-hearted dumped Cousies.

[Shinobu]

Morwen Eledhwen wrote...

Carmen_Willow wrote...

All I can say is that it is very hard to take Sten to Haven these days! :innocent:

Hahaha. . .I hesitated to do that as well, but his approval rating of my PC in my 3rd playthrough was pretty high so I risked it. If you take him all the way to the top of the mountain, he has some pretty hilarious comments.

I need to pay more attention to Sten. I haven't experienced Haven with him yet.

[LobselVith8]

Shinobu wrote...

Morwen Eledhwen wrote...

Carmen_Willow wrote...

All I can say is that it is very hard to take Sten to Haven these days! :innocent:

Hahaha. . .I hesitated to do that as well, but his approval rating of my PC in my 3rd playthrough was pretty high so I risked it. If you take him all the way to the top of the mountain, he has some pretty hilarious comments.

I need to pay more attention to Sten. I haven't experienced Haven with him yet.

The conversation ends very differently if you have a high approval with Sten.

[Shinobu]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Shinobu wrote...

I need to pay more attention to Sten. I haven't experienced Haven with him yet.

The conversation ends very differently if you have a high approval with Sten.

Ok, I'll have to remember to take cake.

[Morwen Eledhwen]

Shinobu wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Shinobu wrote...

I need to pay more attention to Sten. I haven't experienced Haven with him yet.

The conversation ends very differently if you have a high approval with Sten.

Ok, I'll have to remember to take cake.

Cake is not necessary for the journey, but if you need cake to raise his approval to around the +50 mark, then cake is recommended. If his approval is high enough, he'll kvetch the whole time but without negative consequences (and you can even bump his approval with the correct responses to his kvetching).

I heart Sten. Getting him over the +25 approval hump is the most difficult, especially since he refuses to engage in any meaningful conversation until >25, but once I'm over that he's actually the easiest to get to +100 with my PCs besides the dog.

[Shinobu]

Morwen Eledhwen wrote...

Shinobu wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Shinobu wrote...

I need to pay more attention to Sten. I haven't experienced Haven with him yet.

The conversation ends very differently if you have a high approval with Sten.

Ok, I'll have to remember to take cake.

Cake is not necessary for the journey, but if you need cake to raise his approval to around the +50 mark, then cake is recommended. If his approval is high enough, he'll kvetch the whole time but without negative consequences (and you can even bump his approval with the correct responses to his kvetching).

I heart Sten. Getting him over the +25 approval hump is the most difficult, especially since he refuses to engage in any meaningful conversation until >25, but once I'm over that he's actually the easiest to get to +100 with my PCs besides the dog.

So he has to be neutral to attack me? I have heard all these positive
comments about hidden dialogues with Sten that I thought I missed out
on, but thinking back to my pre-feastday playthroughs he still ened up
calling the PC "kadan" and I did talk to him about playing and parents
and cookies. So does that mean I didn't miss anything apart from kicking
his butt at Haven?

Modifié par Shinobu, 11 février 2011 - 05:17 .

[Morwen Eledhwen]

I don't know exactly what the threshhold is for Sten to attack you --all I know is that he was <25 approval with my DC and attacked, but that my other PCs have all been in the +60-+80 range at Haven and he's only complained.

The hidden dialogues have to do with the "I wanted to discuss something you mentioned" dialogue opener. If you take him to certain locations, he will make a comment in the middle of your dialogue with someone else in which he will talk about some part of the Qun. Once he does, you can then speak to him about it at any time. I honestly don't know what all the locations are --I've gotten him to "mention" stuff at the Circle of Magi, by the Chantry in Orzammar, and somewhere in Denerim before the Landsmeet (I forget where but we always end up discussing it in Arl Eamon's estate). I know there are others, but I'm resisting the temptation to look them up in the Dragon Age Wiki.

[Joy Divison]

Morwen Eledhwen wrote...

mander83 wrote...

There are some that are more difficult- Vaughn is one of them. The first origin I ever did was a female city elf...so I have a special hatred for him. The Landsmeet is important though. So, even thinking about it now, I don't know what the decision will be.

But you don't need to release Vaughn to be successful at the Landsmeet, so that shouldn't be a factor.

Well, that;s the metagaming the OP is referring to.  The GW would have no way of knowing that.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

shatteredstar56 wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

shatteredstar56 wrote...

I punish her every time by killing Connor, death is too much of a blessing.

Huh. Well, I guess it sucks to be Connor; he was just trying to save his dad.

Isolde replaces him, and dies in childbirth. 
Connor is collateral damage, despite that sounding cruel.  He would have never probably summoned the demon,  had Isolde grown a pair and sent him away to magic school. It's her fault that he had to die, the way I see it.

Huh. Well, I guess it sucks to be Connor; he was just trying to save his dad.

[sylvanaerie]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

shatteredstar56 wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

shatteredstar56 wrote...

I punish her every time by killing Connor, death is too much of a blessing.

Huh. Well, I guess it sucks to be Connor; he was just trying to save his dad.

Isolde replaces him, and dies in childbirth. 
Connor is collateral damage, despite that sounding cruel.  He would have never probably summoned the demon,  had Isolde grown a pair and sent him away to magic school. It's her fault that he had to die, the way I see it.

Huh. Well, I guess it sucks to be Connor; he was just trying to save his dad.

Sad part is, that little boy is willing to shoulder the responsiblity that should have been on the adults in the first place and to die to save everyone else.  I find it sad that the two people in the situation with the least culpability (Jowan and Connor) are more mature than the two people I feel should be stepping up and accepting culpability (Isolde and Loghain).  Both she and he will whine about it and pass the blame to Jowan (Her in Redcliffe, Loghain at the Landsmeet). 
Come on people, man up and accept your responsibility!  Instead both wait till the world is a smoking ruin around them before they realize ....umm maybe what I did wasn't the best idea after all...

[HolyAvenger]

How the frack is Jowan not culpable? He's guilty on two counts- first for poisoning the Arl, and secondly for failing to protect Connor from demonic possession.

[ddv.rsa]

HolyAvenger wrote...

How the frack is Jowan not culpable? He's guilty on two counts- first for poisoning the Arl, and secondly for failing to protect Connor from demonic possession.

I agree about poisoning the Arl, but how do you blame him for Connor making a deal with a demon? If I recall correctly he was even in prison at the time.

[HolyAvenger]

Clearly he failed to a) either teach Connor enough to protect him from such things (OK, difficult for a small kid or taught him way too much in an unprotected manner.



All this inference of course, and this doesn't absolve Isolde of blame, but Jowan is guilty in his own right.

[sylvanaerie]

HolyAvenger wrote...

How the frack is Jowan not culpable? He's guilty on two counts- first for poisoning the Arl, and secondly for failing to protect Connor from demonic possession.

I didn't say he wasn't culpable just that I felt his culpability is much less than the responsibility he takes on (he doesn't blame Loghain or Isolde, instead taking it all on his shoulders and wants to make amends).  I found that particularly poignant considering neither Isolde or Loghain accept responsibility until you force them too.  And I blame them far more than Jowan, who was stuck in a situation he couldn't see any other way out of.  Loghain used his desperation to make him a tool to get Eamon out of his hair and Isolde was so desperate to keep her child with her that she trusted the wrong man.  I blame Isolde (mostly) and Loghain far more than I do Jowan though the maleficar is far from innocent in this situation.
And Connor is an innocent caught up in the machinations and affairs of grownups when, as a child, he SHOULD have been protected from them.

[Persephone]

sylvanaerie wrote...

HolyAvenger wrote...

How the frack is Jowan not culpable? He's guilty on two counts- first for poisoning the Arl, and secondly for failing to protect Connor from demonic possession.

I didn't say he wasn't culpable just that I felt his culpability is much less than the responsibility he takes on (he doesn't blame Loghain or Isolde, instead taking it all on his shoulders and wants to make amends).  I found that particularly poignant considering neither Isolde or Loghain accept responsibility until you force them too.  And I blame them far more than Jowan, who was stuck in a situation he couldn't see any other way out of.  Loghain used his desperation to make him a tool to get Eamon out of his hair and Isolde was so desperate to keep her child with her that she trusted the wrong man.  I blame Isolde (mostly) and Loghain far more than I do Jowan though the maleficar is far from innocent in this situation.
And Connor is an innocent caught up in the machinations and affairs of grownups when, as a child, he SHOULD have been protected from them.

He doesn't blame Loghain or Isolde? Really? "But he has abandoned me, hasn't he?", "Why wouldn't I trust Teyrn Loghain?" *Whine* *Whine*. Jowan, just like Loghain, made his decisions. And both were stuck between a hard place and a rock. I always let Jowan go, btw. But honestly....

[sylvanaerie]

Persephone wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...

HolyAvenger wrote...

How the frack is Jowan not culpable? He's guilty on two counts- first for poisoning the Arl, and secondly for failing to protect Connor from demonic possession.

I didn't say he wasn't culpable just that I felt his culpability is much less than the responsibility he takes on (he doesn't blame Loghain or Isolde, instead taking it all on his shoulders and wants to make amends).  I found that particularly poignant considering neither Isolde or Loghain accept responsibility until you force them too.  And I blame them far more than Jowan, who was stuck in a situation he couldn't see any other way out of.  Loghain used his desperation to make him a tool to get Eamon out of his hair and Isolde was so desperate to keep her child with her that she trusted the wrong man.  I blame Isolde (mostly) and Loghain far more than I do Jowan though the maleficar is far from innocent in this situation.
And Connor is an innocent caught up in the machinations and affairs of grownups when, as a child, he SHOULD have been protected from them.

He doesn't blame Loghain or Isolde? Really? "But he has abandoned me, hasn't he?", "Why wouldn't I trust Teyrn Loghain?" *Whine* *Whine*. Jowan, just like Loghain, made his decisions. And both were stuck between a hard place and a rock. I always let Jowan go, btw. But honestly....

No, he doesn't blame Loghain.  (Blaiming implies that he felt he was innocent and someone else is responsible).  Yes, he whines about his fate (he knows death or worse awaits him) but he also shoulders all the blame himself for what happened, esp when that harpy Isolde is screeching at him that it's all his fault.  Another reason I will often go the blood ritual route so Isolde can atone some of what she did to cause that mess.  She's so freaking smug afterward.  At least she has the good grace to admit she's to blame for all those deaths and wants to atone with her life to save her child and spare Redcliffe from further destruction.  Too little too late but by then the damage is done.

Loghain, on the other hand, at the Landsmeet denies sending Jowan to Redcliffe to poison Eamon, placing the blame on Jowan and denying that he even did it in the first place.  Behavior displayed also when you confront him in the Arl's estate upon arrival in Denerim, calling it an 'illness' like Eamon or the PC is too stupid to know what happened.  He isn't forced to admit it till Alfstanna calls him out on his lie.  I would probably let him live more if he would just admit what he's done and take responsibility for it, but he just whines and passes the blame to others, Howe, Jowan, Cailan, the Grey Wardens, the Orlesians etc. By the time he does admit he screwed up, Ferelden is in a state of emergency and Denerim looks like ground zero at a nuclear blast.  That he finally regrets it when it comes time to slay the archdemon is, IMO as with Isolde, too little, too late.  By then, the damage is done.

[MalcolmM]

If I'm not playing a noble (in all senses) warden, I let Jowan escape and make Isolde kill Connor. No matter what variety of warden I'm playing Vaughan dies - "Denerim is better off without you" is just such a classic line.

If my warden is a bit of a wad, Wynne dies in the apprentice quarters, but I always face Cullen down and insist the tower is save.

[Zjarcal]

Morwen Eledhwen wrote...

I don't know exactly what the threshhold is for Sten to attack you --all I know is that he was <25 approval with my DC and attacked, but that my other PCs have all been in the +60-+80 range at Haven and he's only complained.

The threshold is once he reaches "friendly" status, so you must have given him his sword first.

[Persephone]

sylvanaerie wrote...

Persephone wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...

HolyAvenger wrote...

How the frack is Jowan not culpable? He's guilty on two counts- first for poisoning the Arl, and secondly for failing to protect Connor from demonic possession.

I didn't say he wasn't culpable just that I felt his culpability is much less than the responsibility he takes on (he doesn't blame Loghain or Isolde, instead taking it all on his shoulders and wants to make amends).  I found that particularly poignant considering neither Isolde or Loghain accept responsibility until you force them too.  And I blame them far more than Jowan, who was stuck in a situation he couldn't see any other way out of.  Loghain used his desperation to make him a tool to get Eamon out of his hair and Isolde was so desperate to keep her child with her that she trusted the wrong man.  I blame Isolde (mostly) and Loghain far more than I do Jowan though the maleficar is far from innocent in this situation.
And Connor is an innocent caught up in the machinations and affairs of grownups when, as a child, he SHOULD have been protected from them.

He doesn't blame Loghain or Isolde? Really? "But he has abandoned me, hasn't he?", "Why wouldn't I trust Teyrn Loghain?" *Whine* *Whine*. Jowan, just like Loghain, made his decisions. And both were stuck between a hard place and a rock. I always let Jowan go, btw. But honestly....

No, he doesn't blame Loghain.  (Blaiming implies that he felt he was innocent and someone else is responsible).  Yes, he whines about his fate (he knows death or worse awaits him) but he also shoulders all the blame himself for what happened, esp when that harpy Isolde is screeching at him that it's all his fault.  Another reason I will often go the blood ritual route so Isolde can atone some of what she did to cause that mess.  She's so freaking smug afterward.  At least she has the good grace to admit she's to blame for all those deaths and wants to atone with her life to save her child and spare Redcliffe from further destruction.  Too little too late but by then the damage is done.

Loghain, on the other hand, at the Landsmeet denies sending Jowan to Redcliffe to poison Eamon, placing the blame on Jowan and denying that he even did it in the first place.  Behavior displayed also when you confront him in the Arl's estate upon arrival in Denerim, calling it an 'illness' like Eamon or the PC is too stupid to know what happened.  He isn't forced to admit it till Alfstanna calls him out on his lie.  I would probably let him live more if he would just admit what he's done and take responsibility for it, but he just whines and passes the blame to others, Howe, Jowan, Cailan, the Grey Wardens, the Orlesians etc. By the time he does admit he screwed up, Ferelden is in a state of emergency and Denerim looks like ground zero at a nuclear blast.  That he finally regrets it when it comes time to slay the archdemon is, IMO as with Isolde, too little, too late.  By then, the damage is done.

It's so easy to shift it all on one single person, no? I truly dislike Isolde but were I in her shoes I'd be mad as a hornet too. She is lashing out at the man who poisoned her husband and who may be to blame for the demon, given that he is a bloodmage. From her point of view, her "screeching" is entirely justified and hardly something to condemn her for. (There are other reasons though) I never go for the blood ritual. For one thing, Connor shouldn't have to lose his mother so my morals may be adhered to and the victims of the demon be avenged. There is more to consider than punishing Isolde for making terrible decisions. Never mind the golden principle: Judge not lest you be judged.

And of course Loghain will deny using an apostate at the Landsmeet until proven otherwise. Who in his position (Needing to gain votes) would admit to such a thing? Unicorns and sunshine morals aside, that is not how politics work. I've never heard him blame Howe for anything and his blaming Cailan/the Orlesians is justified 100%. As for the Wardens, reading "The Calling" made me understand why he'd think them capable of betrayal & possibly delaying the beacon on purpose. And I've heard Loghain do a lot but the man NEVER whines about anything. He shouts, he glowers, he growls, he snarls, he pleads, he persuades....but whining? Never. If you knew all of his conversations you'd know that he shows regret way before Fort Drakon. In the end, if one wishes to be moralistic....showing mercy and granting redemption rank way higher than revenge and jusgment in my book. But that is how I play. Take it for what it's worth.