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[C Barchuk]

Ok I have the Baldurs Gate Collection. I haven't played this game in years and I've been wanting to come back to it cause its so great. I downloaded the latest ToB patch as well as the G3 fix and tweak pack. Thieves are my favorite to play so thats what I want to go with. I'm looking at doing an assassin or kensai/thief. I just wanted to get some tips on making this guy a backstabbing machine. I haven't played in so long that I just don't remember much so any guidance would be great or a link to some help would be appreciated. Looking forward to playing again.

[Matuse]

Nothing really all that complicated about it. 18 strength, 18 dex, 16 con, 11 int (for mindflayers), wis and cha don't really matter.



The best weapons that can also be used for backstabbing are longswords, scimitars, katanas, and quarterstaves.

[Grond0]

Matuse wrote...

Nothing really all that complicated about it. 18 strength, 18 dex, 16 con, 11 int (for mindflayers), wis and cha don't really matter.

The best weapons that can also be used for backstabbing are longswords, scimitars, katanas, and quarterstaves.

For a kensai/thief you might as well have 18 con to get max HP benefit.  As you don't need wis or cha to be high that should be easy.

[C Barchuk]

Would kensai/thief be better than going assassin? I played an assassin many years so I don't remember much but I do remember constantly missing my backstabs. Not sure what was going with that but it seemed I would miss all the time. At any rate if I go kensai/Thief, what are the premier weapons I should dual wield or is it better to stick with single weapon style for more accurate backstabs? Sorry for the stupid questions. I used to know this stuff. I'm getting the dust off slowly but surely. Thanks again

[Humanoid_Taifun]

My share of tips:

• Kensei dualclasses only really make sense at a relatively late stage (level 13 at the earliest). If you want to experience the advantages of both classes before a prolonged waiting period, I suggest a cheated multiclass Kensei-thief. Backstabbing is a bit different, because the Kai ability means that even the minimum kensei levels can provide some major bonus to your damage (albeit of course less than more kensei levels)
• Kensei are generally good for their damage per hit. Thus you want to maximise attacks (and hits) per round. Dualwielding is therefore the logical choice. Belm would be the perfect choice for your left hand*. (later you could use the Scarlet Ninja-To, if you have the bonus merchants)
• Backstabbing is different of course. You only get one attack, and you have to make that one count. Katanas are without enchantment the best backstbabbing weapon you could wish for, but their enchantments suck. Staves are the way to go.
• Assassinations (and, in the same manner, Mislead exploits) are insofar different from normal backstabs as they allow you multiple attacks. Dualwielding is back on the table. A level 13 dualwielding fighter has 3½ APR, so you'd take your best katana in your right hand and Belm in your left hand*. If you dualclassed before level 13 (or if your multiclassed Kensei hasn't reached level 13 yet), Belm in your right hand, Kundane in your left. (the Scarlet Ninja-To is unusable for backstabs)

With these 4 general combat ideals in mind, you should decide on your primary fighting style. Rushing in and out of combat for repeated backstabs is a tactic that is best complemented by Staves (as mentioned in point 3) and two-handed swords (for Carsomyr**).
If you prefer to fight it out with the enemy, but begin each battle with a juicy backstab you should first focus on dualwielding. Make sure that you focus on backstab-compatible weapons though. Long swords and katana come to mind. (long swords are generally more useful, but the best backstabs can be had with katana) As I mentioned before, your left hand is best filled with Belm, but you don't really need proficiency in scimitars for that. Belm's great boon is what it allows your other weapon to do.

Since this is a combat-thief, he will likely want to max out his stealth first, so make sure you have a secondary thief for locks and traps. Also, since we are on the subject of thief abilities:
Pick Locks, Find Traps, Detect Illusions and Set Traps only require 100 points. If you put in more points than that, they'll be wasted (unless you use Simulacri for extra trap setting).
If a thief ability is raised above 255 (which in binary is 11111111), it will run out of digits. The next number, 256, would be 100000000, but without the first digit it's 0. So you'd better not raise your abilities that much.


* If you install the tweak for True Grandmastery, don't indiscriminately use weapons that offer additional attacks. You cannot get more than 5 attacks per round (even Whirlwind or Improved Haste don't actually change that) and your number of attacks may be rolled back to nothing if you try to go past 5.
** Instead of Carsomyr, you could also employ the Staff of the Mages - but that weapon is so cheasy when employed for this tactic it's not even funny, and it may be difficult for you to hold back on the No-Danger--Certain-Victory button once you realize how helpless the enemies are against it.

Modifié par Humanoid_Taifun, 06 février 2011 - 07:15 .

[C Barchuk]

Wow, a wealth of info. Thanks a bunch. Yea as far as dual-classing, everything I've read so far has suggested 9th or 13th level like you've suggested. Is 13th a better level to over to thief compard to 9th? Originally I was going to dual wield long swords cause alot of the posts I've read seem to suggest that weren't very many good katana's and that I would find better long swords in ToB. What katana are you suggesting? Either way use a katana in my main hand and use Belm or Scarlet Ninja-to in my off hand? Sounds pretty sweet. Looking forward to some backstabbing goodness. I've never played a kensai/thief but I've been wanting to for a long time.
Okay how should I start my proficiences? I assume 3 stars in two weapon style and start putting some in katana and when I change over to thief, put those points into different weapons?
Guys thanks again for the help and sorry for all the questions that I'm sure you've answered countless times. I just want to make sure I do it right the first time. Peace

Modifié par C Barchuk, 06 février 2011 - 07:36 .

[Humanoid_Taifun]

Sorry, I think I gave you some wrong impressions. Katana are not that awesome in BG2 except for Celestial Fury (rather overpowered for Shadows of Amn) and well-prepared assassinations; and I'm not really a fan of kensei dualclasses. What you understood as "Kensei(13) dualclasses are awesome" was more meant as "Kensei dualclasses below level 13 are not very smart."
Once you dualclass you will be a level 1 thief with a bunch of extra HP, but forbidden from using ranged weapons or armor of any kind. So the only way for you to contribute to combat is to go into melee, where you are pretty much defenseless, while also completely ineffective.
An experienced player can bypass this somewhat by doing some quests (but not talking to the quest giver at the end) and collecting mage scrolls so they are able to get a few hundred thousand XP directly after dualclassing without any combat, but that just means that you will be level 5 or something, still nowhere close to actually useful.

That doesn't mean you shouldn't dualclass. If you feel up to it, do it, by all means. But consider some other options too, namely multiclass (even a noncheated multiclass Fighter/Thief is very cool) and Berserk->Thief (no armor restrictions, full benefits from the kit ability even at low level, so you needn't even go all the way to level 13).

C Barchuk wrote...
Wow, a wealth of info. Thanks a bunch. Yea as far as dual-classing, everything I've read so far has suggested 9th or 13th level like you've suggested. Is 13th a better level to over to thief compard to 9th?

Level 13 gives you +1 damage and +½ attack per round (and a better THAC0).
Of course, the more fighter levels you have, the better the combination will be in the end. Theoretically, you could wait till level 24 until you dualclass, but you really shouldn't do that unless you were planning on going with a very small team and/or had a bad powergaming habit.
The problem is of course the downtime, the period from after the actual dualclassing until your kensei level reactivate. For the duration, you are a simple (lowlevel) thief. Check your manual for the XP tables, because if you dualclass at level 13, that's a pretty long time. That's why I suggested the cheated multiclass.

Originally I was going to dual wield long swords cause alot of the posts I've read seem to suggest that weren't very many good katana's and that I would find better long swords in ToB.

And that's completely true. Long swords are better. There is one thing that katana have over long swords, and that is a better damage die (1D10 over 1D8, or 10 vs 8 when using Kai).
To top it off, there is only a katana +4 in ToB, while long swords get a +5 high end version of course (so the advantage is now only 1 point of damage, versus some additional very useful enchantments on the long sword)

What katana are you suggesting?

Simple, enchanted katana (+1 to +3) as you find them until you are able to take on the Slaver Compound (temple district, walk straight ahead from the entrance away), where you can get Celestial Fury. That'll be the best katana until you can upgrade Hindo's Doom at the end of Throne of Bhaal.

Okay how should I start my proficiences? I assume 3 stars in two weapon style and start putting some in katana and when I change over to thief, put those points into different weapons?

If you have the True Grandmastery fix you should go for grandmastery in your weapon of choice ASAP, then put some points in dualwielding etc. For the beginning, 2 points in dualwielding should really be enough.
Without the tweak, 2 points in a weapon are what's important. It may make sense to spread your points a little. Maces are useful against vampires, but unusable while your fighter levels are inactive - any blunt weapon is good against golems, and staves are the only noteworthy* blunt weapons usuable by singleclass thieves and besides very good for backstabs. Both maces and staves also allow you with some planning to acquire a +4 weapon relatively early (useful to bypass certain enemy resistances to weaker weapon enchantments). One point in either of them should suffice for emergency situations (or have somebody else in your team use them).


*Clubs can be used as well, but... well, they are clubs. Good for tree-hugging druids and hamster-doting beastmasters, I guess.

Modifié par Humanoid_Taifun, 06 février 2011 - 10:15 .

[C Barchuk]

Thanks again for the response. What do you think of just going straight assassin? I tried one many years ago and, from what I remember, it was a blast except I remember missing my backstabs quite often. I assume that's from a lower THACO.

[Humanoid_Taifun]

In regards of the assassin... You could up your THAC0 with a Belt of Giant Strength and some mage buffs. Invisibility (or stealth) gives +4 on your THAC0 as well. Go halfling for improved saving throws and do the Planar Prison quest early for some Boots of Speed (best weapon ever for a backstabber).

But IMO the FT multi is much better. Better THAC0, HP, damage (once you reach 3M XP you can simply activate Critical Strike and get tenfold damage instead of the assassin septuple), more APR... The one thing you don't get is the Poison Weapon ability (and you'll be more limited in regards of race choice).

[polytope]

Multiclass fighter/thieves excel dual class IMO, better fighting skills and more resilient at high levels. Another alternative is the stalker, faster THAC0 progression and better hp even than the f/t. I only dual to spellcasting classes.



If you do go with k->t, poison throwing daggers will be your friend after dualling... Some would call it an exploit but Kensai can use them and they're a good way to inflict damage for a low level unarmoured thief.



Assassins, their poison is good at interrupting casters but it's something of a niche kit. Regarding assassin THAC0, quaterstaves are a good choice for backstabbing low AC enemies, as blunt weapons get the least penalty against armour.

[Dante2377]

Unless you have some sort of mod that changes this, you cannot backstab with a weapon that single-class thieves cannot naturally use without Use Any Item.

So backstabbing with staff of the magi or Carsomyr doesn't work vanilla.  The big cheese with SotM was simply that it made you invisible immediately without having to run around the corner and hide in shadows.

There is a component of Level 1 NPCs that lets multiclass thieves backstab with items that those classes can use, but I don't think Carsomyr falls into that camp (since they can't naturally use it).


Level 1 NPC mod backstab options:
-Allow backstab with any weapon a mage/thief, fighter/thief or cleric/thief can use. Backstabbing with a two-handed sword shouldn't be less effective than backstabbing with a quarterstaff, yes?
-Make quarterstaves unusable for backstabbing - by request.
-Make all two-handed weapons unusable for backstabbing - note that in the unmodded game, the only two-handed weapon that is capable of backstabbing is the quarterstaff, so this isn't going to do much unless you've already installed the "allow backstab with thief multiclass weapons" subcomponent.


From what I remember the couple times i used this for my F/T multi, I could backstab with Twohanded swords like Lilarcor, but not the holy avenger still.  

Modifié par Dante2377, 07 février 2011 - 09:11 .

[Humanoid_Taifun]

Dante2377 wrote...
So backstabbing with staff of the magi or Carsomyr doesn't work vanilla.  The big cheese with SotM was simply that it made you invisible immediately without having to run around the corner and hide in shadows.

Of course, you are still going to run around the corner and hide in shadows, because otherwise the only weapon available for attack while invisible is the Staff of the Mages, which is pretty weak.
The difference is that this way, nobody will follow you. You will have no difficulty at all getting away from your enemy and going back into hiding.
And that's just one of the many great advantages that the staff offers.

Even if you install a mod that allows you to backstab with the Staff of the Mages, that wouldn't be much of a bonus. The damage of the SoTM is 1D6+1, which is really not much for staves. You'd best use this specific staff offensively only to get through the defenses of somebody. Afterwards you'll want to change weapons.