357 réponses à ce sujet

[Sacred_Fantasy]

Amitar wrote...

Roleplaying take's one of 2 forms. You can make your own character PnP style, or you can Roleplay a preset character in a manner you see fit. Both are entirely valid forms of RP and CRPGs.

Unfortunately not all can roleplay preset character and not all can roleplay their character in third person perspective. RP and CRPGs are not defined by others but the players themselves. It's the players that going to experience themselves. Therefore, It's very subjective. The developer responsibility is to make sure they deliver their content. If they can't make the player roleplay  their character as intended due to limited features for creation and customization, then they are not doing their job. As customer, the player has the right to complain.
 

Amitar wrote...
Bioware are always stated that Thedas, specifically Thedas throughout the Dragon Age (hence the series name) is the focus of the Dragon Age series, not it's characters. A shift of perspective on character is, as such, not changing the focus of the series.

Yet non player character such as Morrigan and Anders appear in other sequel? I'm sorry but how this equate to a shift of perspective on character?

Amitar wrote...
It's not the same as ME's wheel, though it is based on it. As I understand it, there are no Paragon/Renegade style options, just varying styles of responses. I prefer it to the "mute hero" option.

The reason I cannot roleplay Shepard in Mass Effect 2 is I am not the kind of person who view things as paragon/renegade style. There is no evil vs good value for me. I can only agree, disagree or take neutral stand ( which I prefer most of the time. ) Therefore no matter what choices presented, Shepard always look wrong to me. I'm glad Dragon Age doesn't have this "nonsense" mentality regarding choices and decisions.  I am not arguing this with you . I merely highlight it as I'm very interested in it.

Amitar wrote...
All games do this. DA:O did this. Linear stories with branches pathes. The story always takes you from A to B, you just get to choose road X, Y or Z. This is a fundamental of all video game story telling. DA2 actually looks like you will have more impct on the story than in, say, Origins, wherein your character's overall contribution to the plot was deciding which allies you had at endgame and if you survived (via deus sex machina) or not.

Due to the nature of story within story, there's  other impact as well. Such as who is actually the main subject of DA2. The Narrator and the Seeker or the player? Where is present day Hawke?   

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 10 février 2011 - 12:28 .

[ladydesire]

Drowsy0106 wrote...

TL;DR - EA/budget/deadline , this is not Bioware's fault.

If any those were the case, we would reading about a much different DA2 than what we are; I would think that what the developers have said multiple times would have registered by now.

[contextual_entity]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

Unfortunately not all can roleplay preset character and not all can roleplay their character in third person perspective. RP and CRPGs are not defined by others but the players themselves. It's the players that going to experience themselves. Therefore, It's very subjective. The developer responsibility is to make sure they deliver their content. If they can't make the player roleplay  their character as intended due to limited features for creation and customization, then they are not doing their job. As customer, the player has the right to complain.

That, I'm afraid, is a personal opinion and not failing of the developer. I have no issue roleplaying a "preset" character, and I imagine Hawke will be highly customisable even if only as a human. You have the right to complain, certainly, but that doesn't make the decision less valid.
 

Yet non player character such as Morrigan and Anders appear in other sequel? I'm sorry but how this equate to a shift of perspective on character?

Maybe I wasn't clear in my statement, if not, my apologies. I was referring to the character transition from the Warden to Hawke not being an ending to the Dragon Age series. One could argue it ends the Origins Saga, but that's a different discussion regardless.

Due to the nature of story within story, there's other impact as well. Such as who is actually the main subject of DA2. The Narrator and the Seeker or the player? Where is present day Hawke?

That's half the interest in the story though.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

Amitar wrote...
That, I'm afraid, is a personal opinion and not failing of the developer. I have no issue roleplaying a "preset" character, and I imagine Hawke will be highly customisable even if only as a human. You have the right to complain, certainly, but that doesn't make the decision less valid.

Then perhaps the decision to label merchandise as RPG should be made more valid as it concern consumer's right. 
http://en.wikipedia....mer_protection 
 

Amitar wrote...
Maybe I wasn't clear in my statement, if not, my apologies. I was referring to the character transition from the Warden to Hawke not being an ending to the Dragon Age series. One could argue it ends the Origins Saga, but that's a different discussion regardless.

I understand. My concern is; if Dragon Age Story is build around Thedas with little regard to it's main characters transition then the same principle should be applied to previous NPCs as well. I find it's somewhat 'unfair" that this isn't the case. IMO, Dragon Age as whole, seem to indicate that Non Player Character such as Morrigan and Flemeth  are the main characters and not player character.  

[Mordaedil]

Drowsy0106 wrote...
EA/budget/deadline , this is not Bioware's fault.

Apologist. Bioware had a say in the design of this game and the only way to let them know we're not going to take it is to analyze the game carefully, try it and then dismiss it and not buy it at full price. Maybe it makes a nice Steam sale this summer if enough people do that.

EA has actually been really relenting on Bioware too, so saying they are at fault for the quality of what we see in DA2 is really terrible. Bioware was the ones making the bad decisions at the end of DA:O as well.

[Scous3]

Ponendus wrote...

I know what you mean, but yeah, it's not supposed to be a sequel to what happened in Origins, it's the next story that takes place in the 'Dragon Age'.!

exactly!

[contextual_entity]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...
Then perhaps the decision to label merchandise as RPG should be made more valid as it concern consumer's right. 
http://en.wikipedia....umer_protection

I do not believe the ability to customise your own character defines an RPG. To the point where I don't consider MMO's as a rule RPGs regardless of how indepth their character creator (SW:ToR may change this - May). To me an RPG is an involving and adaptable story where you assume a certain role combined which conventional RPG mechanics to support the gameplay.
For example; I would consider Alpha Protocol an RPG, despite it's extremely limited visual customization, whereas ME2 is more a 3rd person shooter with RPG elements. (I still consider it a good game before you start moaning, people.)

However, we are drifting far into the realm of personal opinion here, which is more or less my point. This is not a matter of consumer labels as the labels of an RPG do cover games that have preset characters: Alpha Protocol, Planescape Torment, damn near every JRPG in existance, even KotOR to a degree (sure, you got to choose his fake name and overwritten personality, but end of the day, you where still playing Revan - I do admit to this being semantics though.)
 

I understand. My concern is; if Dragon Age Story is build around Thedas with little regard to it's main characters transition then the same principle should be applied to previous NPCs as well. I find it's somewhat 'unfair" that this isn't the case. IMO, Dragon Age as whole, seem to indicate that Non Player Character such as Morrigan and Flemeth  are the main characters and not player character. 

I'd argue that this is simply a matter of Gameplay and Story Segregation. Due to the change of graphics engines and designs combined with the versatility of DA:O character creator, it is not realistically feasable to add the Warden/Warden Commander into the game. Though a nice DLC addition to DA2 would be a mirror of the DA:O Character Creator redone in the DA2 engine, to allow for an import of the Warden.

The focus of the second game being on Hawke however remain, in my opinion, entirely justified.

Damn I waffle a lot.

Modifié par Amitar, 10 février 2011 - 06:32 .

[magicwins]

Scous3 wrote...

Ponendus wrote...

I know what you mean, but yeah, it's not supposed to be a sequel to what happened in Origins, it's the next story that takes place in the 'Dragon Age'.!

exactly!

The problem is that it claims to be a sequel, and I disapprove. I would like it if they came straight out and said, 'This is just another game set in the same universe'

[coolide]

I like to think of it as Origins was The Hobbit, and this is Lord of the Rings.

[Rake21]

coolide wrote...

I like to think of it as Origins was The Hobbit, and this is Lord of the Rings.

That... that is actually a really damn good way to describe it.

My hat is off to you, sir... or madame... whichever.

[JrayM16]

When the hell did this thread come back?!

[Sacred_Fantasy]

Amitar wrote...
I do not believe the ability to customise your own character defines an RPG. To the point where I don't consider MMO's as a rule RPGs regardless of how indepth their character creator (SW:ToR may change this - May). To me an RPG is an involving and adaptable story where you assume a certain role combined which conventional RPG mechanics to support the gameplay.

I respect your point of view but I believe we can basically categorized players as:
A) Players who want to assume someone else role to represent their character. This type of players generally happy with default preset and predefined characters.

Players who want to become the character themselves. This type of players generally prefer customization.

This 2 group of players form distinctive thoughts and rarely agree on each others. Both are equally important. I can see you are from group A while myself as group B. My concern is not about the differences  but rather how much the developer cater the need for both groups. I'm in no position to tell the developer to ignore group A. Rather I'm asking for a fair share for group B.

As someone from group B players, I find it increasingly disappointing that we are not be given equal priority as group A players. When we buy RPG titles, we expect the product to cater our need in the same manner group A players do. While group A do not find much problem with this, group B players however feel they are been mislead  by the title. There's no refund option for retail version. From 2007 to 2009, I have lost about $400 to $600 for 10-12 copies of RPG titles which I only get to play for 5 to 15 minutes and all of them end up in dustbin because I cannot get my refund.  Assassin's Creed is one of that titles and Mass Effect 2 is about to join that rank too.

Amitar wrote...
For example; I would consider Alpha Protocol an RPG, despite it's extremely limited visual customization, whereas ME2 is more a 3rd person shooter with RPG elements. (I still consider it a good game before you start moaning, people.)

You see that's the problem. I have a copy of Alpha Protocol which I bought two months ago and it's still sealed. 

Amitar wrote...
However, we are drifting far into the realm of personal opinion here, which is more or less my point. This is not a matter of consumer labels as the labels of an RPG do cover games that have preset characters: Alpha Protocol, Planescape Torment, damn near every JRPG in existance, even KotOR to a degree (sure, you got to choose his fake name and overwritten personality, but end of the day, you where still playing Revan - I do admit to this being semantics though.)

Whether it's a matter of personal opinion or not, I don't know. I do know,however, I don't buy KotOR, Planescape Torment and JRPG. I bought some of Final Fantasy series and all of them end up in dustbin. I bought Alpha Protocol and it's still perfectly sealed inside it's box. I've remove Mass Effect 2 from my hard drive and I'm wondering whether to give it another try or toss it to dust bin.

So how do you suggest I should find a RPG label that not only cover preset but also fully customized and flexible character, fully immerse first hand personal experience and epic story?

Amitar wrote...
 I'd argue that this is simply a matter of Gameplay and Story Segregation.

They certainly pick a very strong one for storywise. A very poor choice to represent player interest, on the other hand. But that's just my personal opinion. No offense.

Amitar wrote...
Due to the change of graphics engines and designs combined with the versatility of DA:O character creator, it is not realistically feasable to add the Warden/Warden Commander into the game. Though a nice DLC addition to DA2 would be a mirror of the DA:O Character Creator redone in the DA2 engine, to allow for an import of the Warden.

Can we expect the same unrealistically feasable issue happen to Hawke in future DA series?

Amitar wrote...The focus of the second game being on Hawke however remain, in my opinion, entirely justified.

Perhaps. I'm sure we will find out soon enough.

Anyway, thanks for your input.

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 11 février 2011 - 05:28 .

[magicwins]

JrayM16 wrote...

When the hell did this thread come back?!

Yesterday. The last post was 2 days old. I am a beginner necromancer, forgive me if my spells are not strong enough

[AlanC9]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...
 While group A do not find much problem with this, group B players however feel they are been mislead  by the title. There's no refund option for retail version. From 2007 to 2009, I have lost about $400 to $600 for 10-12 copies of RPG titles which I only get to play for 5 to 15 minutes and all of them end up in dustbin because I cannot get my refund.  Assassin's Creed is one of that titles and Mass Effect 2 is about to join that rank too.

This makes Group B players sound very stupid, which I'm sure was not your intention. Do you Group B players really buy a lot of games without understanding what the games are like?

Why did you buy ME2? How is the game you bought different from what you thought you were buying?

[orpheus333]

 Its a Dragon Age sequal.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

AlanC9 wrote...
This makes Group B players sound very stupid, which I'm sure was not your intention. Do you Group B players really buy a lot of games without understanding what the games are like?

If you mean do we read reviews, view trailers etc.. to understand the games, my answer is no. Not mostly. Only recently. Normally I buy rpg games during break hours. I'm working guy. So my choices of games are mostly based on titles with RPG's tag.

AlanC9 wrote...
Why did you buy ME2? 

I didn't plan to. People are comparing ME2 dialogue Wheel with DA2 + ME 2 is Bioware's product. The same developer that produce Neverwinter Night and DA:Origin. So I thought, what could possibly go wrong?

AlanC9 wrote...
How is the game you bought different from what you thought you were buying?

Mainly due to lack of armor customization, lack of personal involvement, Shepard is different person ( partially due to voice tone and paraphrase system ), choices are based on paragon/renegade point of view. I don't view thing as black or white and good and evil. That's on my mind right now.  

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 11 février 2011 - 10:47 .

[sevalaricgirl]

It shouldn't have been called a sequel. It is another part of Thedas, but not a sequel. Also, I agree with the op. I don't like Varrick either. They wanted to make the game more like ME2 and have accomplished that for good or for bad. Some people loved ME2, others thought it was good not great (I'm in that category). I do like the whole medieval thing so I'm sure this will be a more popular game for me than ME2, but they are catering to a younger audience obviously and an xbox/PS3 crowd. If they were catering to the PC audience, they'd release a toolset.

I probably would have like ME2 better if they had brought back Kaidan/Ashley.  They didn't and lost my attention.  It was an okay game but it was not an rpg and shouldn't have been called one.  It should have been called a third person shooter.

Modifié par sevalaricgirl, 11 février 2011 - 10:59 .

[Uomoz1987]

Vicious wrote...

What I have come to realize about DA:O and people who are sticklers for it, are that most of the things they most enjoyed about the game happened in their imagination.

[contextual_entity]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...
This 2 group of players form distinctive thoughts and rarely agree on each others. Both are equally important. I can see you are from group A while myself as group B. My concern is not about the differences  but rather how much the developer cater the need for both groups. I'm in no position to tell the developer to ignore group A. Rather I'm asking for a fair share for group B.

I'd say I'm from both groups. I'll happily create my own characters to RP, I just don't consider it a fundamental of an RPG.

As someone from group B players, I find it increasingly disappointing that we are not be given equal priority as group A players. When we buy RPG titles, we expect the product to cater our need in the same manner group A players do. While group A do not find much problem with this, group B players however feel they are been mislead  by the title. There's no refund option for retail version. From 2007 to 2009, I have lost about $400 to $600 for 10-12 copies of RPG titles which I only get to play for 5 to 15 minutes and all of them end up in dustbin because I cannot get my refund.  Assassin's Creed is one of that titles and Mass Effect 2 is about to join that rank too.

At the risk of sounding harsh here, I think this is stumbling into caveat emptor territory. If you only enjoy RPGs wherein you create your own character from scratch, well, you're referring to a minority of a minority (RPGers).
An RPG as a genre has never, ever promised that you'll get the ability to create your own characters. Some games do it, yes, but not all and it's not mandatory of the genre.

So how do you suggest I should find a RPG label that not only cover preset but also fully customized and flexible character, fully immerse first hand personal experience and epic story?

As far as I know, the only real way to be sure is to do a little digging before buying them.

Another option is to start an online DnD (or similar old-school TTRPG) gaming group. There are a few around. I know a few have appeared on the DnD Resources forum over the years. Or better yet, if you have the time and resources, make your own with your friends.

No offense.

None taken. I may be arguing Bioware's side here but I'm hardly a member of their staff. (...yet!)

Can we expect the same unrealistically feasable issue happen to Hawke in future DA series?

I suppose it depends when and where the game is set in Thedas and if they upgrade the graphics engine again.

Anyway, thanks for your input.

My pleasure. Thank you for the civil discussion.

[Last Vizard]

yukidama wrote...

TJPags wrote...

chiliztri wrote...

How can you NOT like Varric?

Yes, I'm ignoring most of your post to point out this one travesty.

Because he waddles.

Although, I'm sure plenty of people think it's cute.

BUT IT'S SO CUTE >.>

wtf.. this midget **** is making me a little sick.

[ladydesire]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sequel



Whether some people posting in this thread like it or not, DA2 is a sequel to DAO, in the same sense that KotOR2 was a sequel to KotOR; they are both stories set in the same universe.

[Mordaedil]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
Why did you buy ME2? 

I didn't plan to. People are comparing ME2 dialogue Wheel with DA2 + ME 2 is Bioware's product. The same developer that produce Neverwinter Night and DA:Origin. So I thought, what could possibly go wrong?

This was my attitude with Mass Effect and Dragon Age: Origins as well. I didn't realize though, that the reason I liked the earlier games were because members of their team that have since quit the company and not really a thing about how the company itself or how it is run, is magical.

Bioware added too much water to their mix.

[tez19]

'

Modifié par tez19, 11 février 2011 - 05:29 .

[TheRevanchist]

Seriously people...the ONLY thing you lost here was Dwarf and Elf...which did little to nothing in regards to the main story anyway. You had maybe one or two lines of different dialouge but seriously...it's not a game shattering thing to lose. Hawke is every bit as customizable as the Warden in every other regard. Besides...



Vicious wrote...



What I have come to realize about DA:O and people who are sticklers for it, are that most of the things they most enjoyed about the game happened in their imagination.



QFT...this is what it boils down to...you created much bigger and grander things in your head then actually existed. And your all kinda upset that those big grand ideas you imagined didn't do anything to the game world...which really shouldn't surpise you since...you know...it was in your head...



Which is why for me personaly I play the part of Obi-Wan helping Luke. Rather then trying to become the character and create these big elaborate things in my head that will mean nothing in retrospect.

[tez19]

How many times have these things been covered, OHHH MYY GODD. The game is out in exactly 1 month, why bother complaining? It will not change a thing, if you do not like the changes then don't buy the game. Simples.